Stamina for gloans

[BigBossBigTeef]

Wanted to bring up stamina bar for clones in the arc thread but decided to make trooper a different thread instead.
The stamina thing makes sense on arcs, because they need special meter to do rolls, back flips and basically anything cool looking.
But its kinda useless on the clone trooper, like you can get where you need to go without putting a single point in stamina.

Because the default rate stam recharges is actually pretty good without any points in it, so what I am going to ask is has there been anything discussed about the stamina internally and if anyone has any ideas to make it more useful in general without breaking the game.

What I was thinking was that stam could be a little passive defense buff but nothing compared to the buffs the SBD armor gives, and every time you take a hit your stam bar goes down. And when your stam bar runs out, you loose the buff entirely. You should probably nerf their default armor value to compensate the passive armor. Your sprint should still be tied to the stam bar, so if you sprint your bar should still go down naturally. Regen rate should stay at the default values.
The tiers of the stam could be.

1. 6pts-4% blaster defense
   
2. 12pts-8% blaster defense
   
3. 18pts-12% blaster defense, and 5% explosive defense.

Or here is another idea for stamina, rename it to sprint. And each upgrade improves natural travel speed. And remove stam bar entirely.

1. 4pts- 1% speed increase
2. 8pts- 3% speed increase
3. 16pts- 5% speed increase with faster walking speed

 

[StarWarsGeek]

You know that higher levels of stamina let you fire your rifle while sprinting right? Stamina 1 might be useless, but 2 lets you sprint while firing for double stam drains, and 3 lets you sprint while firing at no penalty.

Passive run speed boosts might be interesting, but clones certainly don't need stamina tied to damage reduction. I'd rather see their regular armor become more useful. Armor 2 is fine but 3 is overpriced. (10pts for +30armor? No thanks.)

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

You know that higher levels of stamina let you fire your rifle while sprinting right? Stamina 1 might be useless, but 2 lets you sprint while firing for double stam drains, and 3 lets you sprint while firing at no penalty.

Right, but this is usually ignored for rifle specials or rifle 3.
Not to mention the stam upgrades stop being useful when the majority of the enemy team is sith.
Also it should say that in the description when you hover over it. That bugged me, I had to gloss the library when I was studying classes to find that tibit.

If it there was an accuracy buff on stam 3 then it would be better because I can run at the sith from a long distance while wasting his fp until I reach his push range to start walking, but then there are CQC maps where there isn't a lot of open spaces to bob and weave from. So sprinting while shooting and then running into walls or boxes would just ruin the mobility potential. With the walk speed increase, I can stay accurate while being a bit fast.

Like the current stam upgrades don't help across the board, a travel speed increase or a passive defense buff works no matter what the situation is.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Right, but this is usually ignored for rifle specials or rifle 3.
Not to mention the sprint upgrades stop being useful when the majority of thier team is sith.

Very true. I remember there used to be a bug where holding stamina while holding walk would allow you to walk faster. I'm not sure if this was even fixed or not, but its clunky to use (at least with my key setup). I wouldn't mind seeing "sprint" work while walking. Would just need to change it so instead of tapping walk to turn off sprint you have to tap class special 1 again.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Very true. I remember there used to be a bug where holding stamina while holding walk would allow you to walk faster. I'm not sure if this was even fixed or not, but its clunky to use (at least with my key setup). I wouldn't mind seeing "sprint" work while walking. Would just need to change it so instead of tapping walk to turn off sprint you have to tap class special 1 again.

Thats another thing that bugs me about stam, is that I have to tap my shift key instead of just pressing my special 1 key which is easier than using my left ring finger to press shift.

My right thumb is right where the page up and down buttons are on the side of the mouse there, and thats where my special buttons are mapped too.

 

[Preston]

I think I like the second idea about sprint. But on the other hand I think stamina is actually pretty useful atm. But I think maybe stamina should do both. do the old stamina function, and also increase default speed like in your second idea? I think that would be pretty cool.
Tho it could be a bit op, since clones are really strong already

 

[andrew]

stamina 2 and 3 are actually amazing and well worth considering over armor 3 in many situations

allowing clones to to run while shooting at hero speed is such a gigantic advantage that can be worth significantly more than 30 armor in tons of situations

never underestimate how much movement speed plays into gunfights and the ease of avoiding damage

the simplest way to buff clone if thats what you want to do, is to make clone rifle 1 only 5 points

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

stamina 2 and 3 are actually amazing and well worth considering over armor 3 in many situations

allowing clones to to run while shooting at hero speed is such a gigantic advantage that can be worth significantly more than 30 armor in tons of situations

never underestimate how much movement speed plays into gunfights and the ease of avoiding damage

the simplest way to buff clone if thats what you want to do, is to make clone rifle 1 only 5 points

Its not about buffing the gloan, its about making their ability stamina be useful across the board like all the other class abilities. When I compare other class skills to the gloan, I notice how rally is always a good idea, or dash and heal on the heroes always works no matter the enemy team composition and map, extra lives are great for soldier. Tracking darts and poison darts, any armor option for the SBD, the 3 options for the droidka, any of the abilities mandalorian has (except wrist laser).
All of those abilities are viable in any situation, where gloan stamina fits niche situations.

Do you know what I mean? Going for a stamina build works in some situations but when you compare it to the other classes, their skills are always useful not matter the situation where gloan stamina is kinda useful.

 

[NERO]

Sometimes when my aim isn't shit I take Stamina 2 with CR3 against those pesky sith. It's much easier to just sprint out of their swing range and walk before they have a chance to push, than fire an expensive blob on them only to have them press space bar to turn any kind of knockdown nigh-obsolete.

Stamina is fine as it is.

never underestimate how much movement speed plays into gunfights and the ease of avoiding damage

Yeah. Look at CC2 soldiers.

 

[andrew]

Its not about buffing the gloan, its about making their ability stamina be useful across the board like all the other class abilities. When I compare other class skills to the gloan, I notice how rally is always a good idea, or dash and heal on the heroes always works no matter the enemy team composition and map, extra lives are great for soldier. Tracking darts and poison darts, any armor option for the SBD, the 3 options for the droidka, any of the abilities mandalorian has (except wrist laser).
All of those abilities are viable in any situation, where gloan stamina fits niche situations.

Do you know what I mean? Going for a stamina build works in some situations but when you compare it to the other classes, their skills are always useful not matter the situation where gloan stamina is kinda useful.

i consider rifle 1 with stam 3 vs rifle 2 without stam to be the hardest decision to make in the game pointwise

stam 2 on clone is one of the best 10 point investments in the entire game

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

i consider rifle 1 with stam 3 vs rifle 2 without stam to be the hardest decision to make in the game pointwise

stam 2 on clone is one of the best 10 point investments in the entire game

But your ability stops being useful the moment you come into contact with a droidka, or a sith.
You don't have any emps to deal with the droidka and you don't have any concussions for the sith and using sprint is a knock down.

You could try out strafing the droidka but it only really works if you can circle it, and constantly pressing the sprint key on saber swings and then walking has got to be a huge pain in the ass. How can you time those saber swings and anticipate that stuff when you are constantly adjusting your middle finger from W and D, and then moving the ring finger for shift.

Where if I build dex on an arc.
The arc can simply just roll away from the sith, or jump over droidka over and over.
Now this isn't comparing the CT to the Arc, its just an observation on how useful stamina is compared to other class skills.

If their ability was natural travel speed that increased run and walk speed, it would work in every situation because you can back pedal from sith faster, and you can move cover to cover without being reliant on a stam bar. You can also out strafe the droidka much easier because you won't run out of gas.

 

[Coul]

I think instead of affecting stamina regeneration stamina should just raise the amount of stamina avaliable(all clones have same regen)
level 1 - default stamina(100)
level 2 - more stamina(150)
level 3 - double stamina(200)

 

[Preston]

But your ability stops being useful the moment you come into contact with a droidka, or a sith.
You don't have any emps to deal with the droidka and you don't have any concussions for the sith and using sprint is a knock down.

You could try out strafing the droidka but it only really works if you can circle it, and constantly pressing the sprint key on saber swings and then walking has got to be a huge pain in the ass. How can you time those saber swings and anticipate that stuff when you are constantly adjusting your middle finger from W and D, and then moving the ring finger for shift.

Where if I build dex on an arc.
The arc can simply just roll away from the sith, or jump over droidka over and over.
Now this isn't comparing the CT to the Arc, its just an observation on how useful stamina is compared to other class skills.

If their natural travel speed was increased and walk speed, it would work in every situation because you can back pedal from sith faster, and you can move cover to cover without being reliant on a stam bar. You can also out strafe the droidka much easier.

You can still just blob the sith or do the emp thign on a deka. Also the second part about shift and stuff can all be adjusted for controls to be easier. I use e and r for my class special buttons, and f for walk. works out pretty well

 

[andrew]

But your ability stops being useful the moment you come into contact with a droidka, or a sith.
You don't have any emps to deal with the droidka and you don't have any concussions for the sith and using sprint is a knock down.

You could try out strafing the droidka but it only really works if you can circle it, and constantly pressing the sprint key on saber swings and then walking has got to be a huge pain in the ass. How can you time those saber swings and anticipate that stuff when you are constantly adjusting your middle finger from W and D, and then moving the ring finger for shift.

Where if I build dex on an arc.
The arc can simply just roll away from the sith, or jump over droidka over and over.
Now this isn't comparing the CT to the Arc, its just an observation on how useful stamina is compared to other class skills.

If their ability was natural travel speed that increased run and walk speed, it would work in every situation because you can back pedal from sith faster, and you can move cover to cover without being reliant on a stam bar. You can also out strafe the droidka much easier because you won't run out of gas.

i dont think this is how it plays out ingame, rifle 1 builds are amazing and cover all your bases

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

i dont think this is how it plays out ingame, rifle 1 builds are amazing and cover all your bases

I disagree, I would be more inclined to side with that if rifle 1 was 1 point cheaper.

 

[andrew]

rifle 1 is 6 points, you can get armor 3, another life, stam 3, blob 2 ion 1

you get literally everything you need

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

rifle 1 is 6 points, you can get armor 3, another life, stam 3, blob 2 ion 1

you get literally everything you need

Okay but that doesn't address the stamina problem.
Stam builds work in some situations, while the majority of other skills work in every situation.

It can be improved by the skill being a passive buff instead of a toggle.

You can still do everything a stam 3 build does, but you are not relying on a meter. You are moving fast at all times, including walking.

The percentages I provided can and should be work-shopped, however faster walking speeds would be a very big welcome to the game.

 

[TwiceDead]

I don't get it...
When is more mobility ever NOT useful? Even against Sith/Jedi it's more useful, as merely tap-releasing the walk-key propels you a whole step further than you would be if you merely walked all the way. I skimp out on Grenades for Solds to grab Close Combat 2 because it helps me a lot more than a grenade would most of the time, merely because I need a good setup, time and place for a grenade, something I simply don't need to think about when I can simply gun people down... Or kick them down.

Stamina basically just provides more mobility, and that's all it needs to do. Leave the DR to the Armor values, no need to complicate it any further than that.

If you want clones to be more durable, I'd start by discussing their point-cost for armor rather than give them passive DR on-top of their armor on-top of their extra-life.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

I don't get it...
When is more mobility ever NOT useful? Even against Sith/Jedi it's more useful, as merely tap-releasing the walk-key propels you a whole step further than you would be if you merely walked all the way. I skimp out on Grenades for Solds to grab Close Combat 2 because it helps me a lot more than a grenade would most of the time, merely because I need a good setup, time and place for a grenade, something I simply don't need to think about when I can simply gun people down... Or kick them down.

Stamina basically just provides more mobility, and that's all it needs to do. Leave the DR to the Armor values, no need to complicate it any further than that.

If you want clones to be more durable, I'd start by discussing their point-cost for armor rather than give them passive DR on-top of their armor on-top of their extra-life.

Did you ignore the discussion on passive mobility over toggle mobility?

 

[Supa]

I think stamina is perfect at the moment; remember, it received a pretty major buff in a recent build with it's passive regeneration while walking at all levels, where before that was designated a Stamina 3 only passive ability.

Clone has a completely different ability, and that is it's lack of diversity. Anything without stamina and clone rifle 2 or higher would be best defined as area suppression. Anything with stamina, whether that be clone rifle 1 or 2, would be best defined as an "assault build", however you're pretty limited to what you can get with that.

Clone Rifle 1 (6 points), Reinforcement (30 points), Stamina 3 (15 points), Armor 3 (10 points), Ammo 2 (4 points): 65 points total. Then you can get Concussion Blasts 2 for 10 points and Ion Blasts 1 for 5 points. That is considerably boring though, in my opinion. I may be biased because I used to run that build a lot, with the extra 5 points from Ion Blasts put into Concussion Blasts because Ion Blasts didn't exist the last time I used that build.