Snipers.

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I'm throwing this thread up here just to gather some opinions and thoughts on how we can rework or, if no solid alternative is available, replace snipers in MB2. The issue with snipers as it currently stands is that they provide an incredible boost to killing power at any range without requiring more skill to use effectively. Many of them provide one hit kills on body-shots and almost all of them providing OHK on headshot, this is clearly influenced by other FPS/TPS games but doesn't take into account that in MB2, all guns have travel time - and snipers travel faster, meaning they always provide significantly more accuracy and much higher reward for being able to keep your aim on target than other weapons.

It requires the same skill as any other class of gunner but provides significantly more reward with the ability to practically instantly kill any class and if you have taken the time to get your sensitivity setup, you can even flick-shot at point blank to instantly kill a saberist as they swing, with pretty much zero counter-play outside of Grip or Lightning, both of which are Sith powers.

Almost all the sniper weapons in this game allow you to kill significantly better gunners simply by holding corners, using flick-shots and then the only option the gunner has versus the sniper is to either hope a saberist can deal with them, use a grenade which can be avoided or hope that their opponent misses at any range.

Even at point blank, the only thing keeping you alive against a sniper is that they can't aim or are stuck using a ruptor while out of position, which at least requires some repositioning - but is no less OP when setup, as it is literally hitscan instadeath.
On that note - the ruptor needs to either be made projectile or it needs to deal MUCH less damage and charge much faster, acting more like a battle rifle than a sniper rifle. Having a hitscan sniper that can instakill on a full charge is one of the most broken things I've seen in this mod.

This is an issue, because it has become meta, there is functionally no reason to take the Westar M5 without a scope or to take the EE-3 at less than Rank 3, with the ruptor and proj basically become a standard for bh/hero respectively as they can then also spend some points for ridiculously cheap sidearms which can out damage or compete with all opponents. But thankfully, those sidearms will only really function at the same range as regular gunner weapons which creates a mostly level playing field.

So, my first proposed solution to this issue is as follows:

Reduce all sniper damage on body-shot, significantly. You should be dealing only slightly more damage than a regular blaster bolt (around 50 - 70 damage) on body-shots, this goes for the proj, ruptor, ee3 scoped & m5 scoped - they should all be dealing roughly the same damage on body-shot and it should not be a viable way to get kills, finishing off a wounded player sure but never taking someone out who has full armor and health in a single strike, not even a soldier.

Personally
, I am absolutely fine with headshots rewarding you with an instant kill because, while the only requirement still remains that you need to be able to aim consistently, the area to hit is much smaller and better reflects skill with options for counter play from other gunners in how they approach you, as your target is 1/6th the size of the rest of the body and is much harder hit due to the nature of movement in MB2. Direction changes can, with a target that small, throw off the sniper's aim significantly and the possibility for a gunner to jump at a sniper around a corner or throw a crouch into their movement/strafe pattern, making a headshot nearly impossible without some superhuman prediction.

My second solution is to significantly reduce the damage snipers deal up close, they should have an 'accelerating' damage system, dealing full damage at roughly the full length of DOTF's main corridor from mid doors to the wall that can be seen by imps towards hangar. This sort of system will allow snipers to still function as a lethal threat at long range but hugely penalizes inaccuracy, it means that you either have to be consistently accurate or sniper will not be rewarding for you. This sort of system will be rewarding players that can consistently land shots at long range while penalizing those who use it to cover corners and doorways.

This sort of system also encourages snipers to play like snipers - you can't simply hold a corner and expect to get easy instant kills on anyone who tries to push you, you must give ground or switch to your sidearm when combat gets close and personal. I think out of all three options, this is the best one for everyone involved.

The third and final solution is the most drastic and rather than being a genuine one, only a last resort if we really can't come up with any other changes, and that would be to remove snipers from open mode. Replace them with some more unique pieces of kit, I can't say what - but stuff like the Disruptor Cannon from single-player JKA but with a massively increased cooldown/travel time could be nice to see amongst other things, basically, give BH and Hero some more 'experimental' and out there equipment if the steps to remove snipers from these classes are taken.

Mandalorian sniper in this solution, just change it to function like an A280 in scope - a burst fire weapon, the M5 sniper should be completely removed - it doesn't need to be there when rank 2 M5 makes the gun pinpoint accurate anyway, you don't even have to add anything to replace it.

Right, now that lot is up here, I'd love to have some discussion going - obviously, be courteous.
I have no doubt stepped on some toes in making this thread but I do hope we can get along and debate, see what works and what could be changed to make sniper vs gunner gameplay more fair - because right now, the sniper only loses if he makes a mistake or if his aim is bad, it matters not whether he is up close or at range, the ability to accurately flickshot or not is the only thing which decides whether or not the gunner will survive to fight the sniper on relatively even terrain, though even that is up in the air as some players will just flickshot at 5 - 10 meters distance using a proj/ee3 scoped/m5 scoped as well.
 
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And here is where I would completely disagree. The M5 sniper being accurate whilst performing acrobatics is the most enjoyable element the developers have ever brought to ARC. There are plenty of wall-run tricks you can combine with the sniping function that are fun to learn and add layers of depth to the class. Not to mention learning to aim against your Y-axis whilst preforming acrobatics and sniping is a whole new world. If it is over performing (which it is, but not excessively so) look at the damage, don't restrict the total number of play-styles the ARC has available.

I would be more inclined to give ARC a choice between: sniper, grenade launcher, or improved M5. With selecting any one of those locking out the other options. In that light, the improved M5 could receive some form of bonus besides the improved accuracy (perhaps RoF, FP damage, damage or velocity) such that three play styles can be clearly delineated: an agile sniper, rambo, and a support-orientated build.

The M5 Rank 2 is fine and really doesn't need a buff considering that the gun is pinpoint accurate and on the most agile class in the game, it's an accurate weapon but objectively worse than pistols rank 3 in terms of FP drain and DPS which is fair considering that as a base weapon it is cheaper and pistols have weapon convergence to deal with which can result in misses if the player doesn't account for it.

The M5 is competitive at rank 1 (10pts) while the pistols are only competitive as a primary weapon at rank 3 (14 pts) so that's fair in terms of price as far as I'm concerned, the extra accuracy from rank 2 m5 is more than enough of a boost to justify the 6pt investment on some builds IMO. I'm not a fan of losing playstyles from any class but for ARC sniper, I do not see many changes that could be made outside of making the scope mode far less accurate when wallrunning and arc-fuing around - that would make the playstyle more of a fair fight to compete against because as it stands, the scoped M5 is absolutely broken.

There's no reason to take any other playstyle as an ARC once you master the scoped M5 outside of maybe a pulse grenade if the enemy team is spamming droids. You can wallrun and avoid incoming fire and then retaliate with pinpoint accurate shots which can three shot most gunners on bodyshots not even looking at headshots. Yes, the ARC requires a lot of skill in a lot of different areas to do this but once you master it there's basically nothing any other gunner, not even an opposing sniper, can really do to you unless they have extra lives to try and whittle you down or hit you with explosives/lightning to pin you down.

The ARC already has a choice between sniper/grenade launcher/improved M5 - there's no point taking M5 rank 2 if you have the sniper as it doesn't affect scoped mode, rank 1 M5 + scope is just as accurate in scope as rank 2 M5, and having M5 hipfire be pinpoint is worthless versus dropping 1 rank of ammo to get dual pistols/pistol 3 with the 6pts saved on rank 2 m5 and the 4pts for ammo.

Playing ARC with Scoped M5, while it takes skill, is no less busted than any other cheese you can accomplish with snipers as they currently stand. In fact, against soldiers, commanders, ETs, etc - I'd argue it might even be the most broken sniper in the game. The others at least have to be in a somewhat predictable position which can leave them vulnerable to grenades or flanks while the ARC can just run all over the place while firing with 100% accuracy. And he only has to pay 20pts for that power, leaving more than enough to get dex 3 (30pts), stam 2 (10pts) and a fair bit of armour and ammo.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I love ARC and I love the mobility focused, accurate firepower that the class brings to the table but there is a limit. Running around with a nade launcher/pistols or just a regular m5 rank 2 + some pulse nades you can throw - fair enough, you're an agile gunner who can mess with sith and throw people's aim off. However, an agile sniper that can outgun most gunners while also being far more mobile and with the possibility to max out their armour or drop a few points of ammo/armor to have dual pistols in reserve? Far too much power on one loadout no matter how much skill it takes to pull off IMO. Something's gotta give.
 
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As it stands, the scoped M5 is absolutely broken. There's no reason to take any other playstyle as an ARC once you master the scoped M5, you can wallrun and avoid incoming fire and then retaliate with pinpoint accurate shots which can three shot most gunners on bodyshots not even looking at headshots. Yes, the ARC requires a lot of skill in a lot of different areas to do this but once you master it there's basically nothing any other gunner, not even an opposing sniper, can really do to you.

That is pure exaggeration. I cannot fathom a single person who plays ARC M5 sniper so well that that assertion holds true. Scoped M5 does a bit too much health damage, and before that an obnoxious amount of FP damage.

M5 sniper performs well against soldier because it is a high-velocity, high-damage weapon versus a slow-moving, fragile class. P3 or EE3 normal fire will do the exact same thing to a soldier.
 
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That is pure exaggeration. I cannot fathom a single person who plays ARC M5 sniper so well that that assertion holds true. Scoped M5 does a bit too much health damage, and before that an obnoxious amount of FP damage.

M5 sniper performs well against soldier because it is a high-velocity, high-damage weapon versus a slow-moving, fragile class. P3 or EE3 normal fire will do the exact same thing to a soldier.

That's not an exaggeration. The only thing keeping it in check is player skill, mechanically - it is far too powerful. If I genuinely put the hours in to familiarize myself with scoped M5 playstyle further, if I put away my restraint to not use the scoped m5, I guarantee you - I would have people crying for it to be nerfed in two months of my usual on/off playtime at most.

The difference is that P3 doesn't allow you to engage at maximum range very easily, the soldier usually fights a P3 user at a distance where both parties can track each other relatively easily and can trade hits so worst case scenario, a soldier gets three chances to wound a P3 user to such a degree with each life that by the third life at least they can achieve victory, whilst an ARC w/ scoped m5 which engages you at those ranges will have a far more varied moveset than hero/bh which makes tracking a lot harder and they can two shot bodyshot or one shot headshot if they come up against a commander or a soldier. Regular EE-3 versus a soldier is a bit more even however, as an EE-3 can generally be traded with because a soldier's E-11 can compete with it up close and a mandalorian has a far more limited moveset than an ARC.

EDIT: I'm not saying that anyone currently playing has bothered to practice to such a degree that plain as day examples of how broken it is are visible (though some of the CE7 guys sure are close), but I'm saying that if anyone actually bothered to put the time in to play ARC w/ scoped m5 long enough to familiarize themselves both with the scoped playstyle (habits for flickshots, sensitivity configuration, etc.) as well as ARC-FU, they'd basically break the game for most gunner classes. Bear in mind, this doesn't really apply to meta snipers (proj/ruptor) or saberists - as both of these can still shut down a M5 Scoped/EE-3 Scoped user very quickly, the latter only if it's not in an open area as catching an ARC in the open is pretty difficult if they do not make many mistakes.
 
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That's not an exaggeration. The only thing keeping it in check is player skill, mechanically - it is far too powerful. If I genuinely put the hours in to familiarize myself with scoped M5 playstyle further, if I put away my restraint to not use the scoped m5, I guarantee you - I would have people crying for it to be nerfed in two months of my usual on/off playtime at most.

The difference is that P3 doesn't allow you to engage at maximum range very easily, the soldier usually fights a P3 user at a distance where both parties can track each other relatively easily and can trade hits so worst case scenario, a soldier gets three chances to wound a P3 user to such a degree with each life that by the third life at least they can achieve victory, whilst an ARC w/ scoped m5 which engages you at those ranges will have a far more varied moveset than hero/bh which makes tracking a lot harder and they can two shot bodyshot or one shot headshot if they come up against a commander or a soldier. Regular EE-3 versus a soldier is a bit more even however, as an EE-3 can generally be traded with because a soldier's E-11 can compete with it up close and a mandalorian has a far more limited moveset than an ARC.

EDIT: I'm not saying that anyone currently playing has bothered to practice to such a degree that plain as day examples of how broken it is are visible, but I'm saying that if anyone actually bothered to put the time in to play ARC w/ scoped m5 long enough to familiarize themselves both with the scoped playstyle (habits for flickshots, sensitivity configuration, etc.) as well as ARC-FU, they'd basically break the game for most gunner classes. Bear in mind, this doesn't really apply to good snipers (proj/ruptor) or saberists - as both of these can still shut down a M5 Scoped/EE-3 Scoped user very quickly.

People have put in time to play ARC with sniper. I've seen Hex., Nex, Threep., Shocker, Gargos (I think I remember a green ARC), Lini., and Seras. They are all capable of aiming. I can't think of a single time I've been against M5 sniper where I have thought there is not a single class or strategy I could employ to win. Toning the damage down is really only as far as I would go, because that truly is the problem.

I only compare P3, M5 sniper and EE3 in that they are all relatively high-velocity and high-damage. Getting hit in the head by any one of them by soldier is pretty much game. You could argue favourable/unfavourable situations for the match-up until the cows come home. It is a positioning problem more so than any inherent property of the weapon.

I proposed making EMP-launcher, sniper, and improved M5 (with changed properties) exclusive such that the improved M5 is clearly the better choice in CQC rather than the rank 1 M5 tied in with sniper and launcher. The converse could be also be possible and the base stats of M5 1 weakened in comparison to M5 2. But the underlying theme of this is to tinker with stats, not remove.
 
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People have put in time to play ARC with sniper. I've seen Hex., Nex, Threep., Shocker, Gargos (I think I remember a green ARC), Lini., and Seras. They are all capable of aiming. I can't think of a single time I've been against M5 sniper where I have thought there is not a single class or strategy I could employ to win.

It'd probably be worth testing most of the things mentioned in your post so it's probably best we leave that argument there, I wouldn't mind seeing some changes proposed to the scoped M5 whether in the form of damage or accuracy tweaks. However, in regards to those ARC w/ sniper players, there is a key factor in those players you've listed. That key factor is that none of those players also combine it with a healthy dose of ARC-fu as far as I am aware.

They use the scoped M5 and arc mobility almost separately, what I mean is they will either use ARC-fu to get to an advantageous position such as on-top of a fence or doorway and then snipe from there or they will use the heightened jump from dex 3 in order to jump over boxes while shooting but they will rarely combine it with wallrun + snipe or lunge + snipe and such in the same way that more aggressive ARC-fu playstyles work. However, a player that makes that sort of playstyle the norm, combining an intensely aggressive ARC-fu playstyle with the raw power of the scoped M5 will basically just remove the need for any other loadout unless they're fighting droids or soldier spam, where an EMP or a PLX respectively might be more useful. It practically turns the scoped M5 into a shotgun loaded with slug shells (powerful at long and close range) for that sort of playstyle, as long as they have the muscle memory and mouse setup to consistently pull it off.
 
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My problem with M5 sniper is the fact that it's way too easy to use. Pick dex3 and you can hop around like an idiot and spam the hell out of that sniper mode (due to the mag size buff). And since a lot of players aren't used to tracking jumping gunners, you will evade most shots simply by jumping randomly.

This playstyle is braindead-tier easy and is extremely rewarding. And while I can't deny that it's fun, I'd like to see something done to it.
 

MaceMadunusus

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I only compare P3, M5 sniper and EE3 in that they are all relatively high-velocity and high-damage.

P3 has a velocity of 5500 where as M5 and EE3 sniper modes are 9000. Pretty big difference between the two groups. E-11 primary is 5500, secondary 4000 and proj is 10000 for reference.
 
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P3 has a velocity of 5500 where as M5 and EE3 sniper modes are 9000. Pretty big difference between the two groups. E-11 primary is 5500, secondary 4000 and proj is 10000 for reference.

I think that's justifiably fast. I also mean to say the EE3 normal fire, which is lower still. I realise that goes against the grain of what I was saying, but at the effective range you use these guns, there isn't much of a perceivable difference. Obviously when you go onto maps like Mygeeto that statement holds little weight.

Thinking on M5 sniper damage, maybe gut the damage to 35 and then tailor up/down on feedback. I wouldn't adjust the capacity, because I think that is the defining characteristic of the sniper.
 
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M5>EE3>>Ruptor>Proj
This is the current powerlevel for snipers.
Does M5 need a rework? - No
Does M5 need to get less damage? - Yes
Does EE3 need to be less accurate? - Yes
Does EE3 need to get quickscope removed? - Yes
 

Lessen

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it's an accurate weapon but objectively worse than pistols rank 3 in terms of FP drain and DPS
The Westar M5 has the highest FP drain multiplier in the game tho.

I don't have Mace's/Tempest's spreadsheet on hand but I'm pretty sure M5's super-high drain multiplier makes it a stronger FP drainer than the pistols, and I'd argue that the lower damage-per-shot compared to pistols is more than compensated for by the simpler accuracy (pinpoint on a single spot instead of two alternating spots like pistols). So all-in-all I agree with you that level 2 M5 doesn't need a buff at all.

(I also agree with you that M5 Sniper should be toned down a bit. Tempest himself gave a pretty strong showing of how good M5 Sniper + Jumping Around is in the Beta.)
 
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@lessen
AFAIK the pistols have slightly higher FP drain, like 2 more per hit but they also shoot faster so they drain FP faster in the same way that they have higher DPS, this could be out of date though as I haven't tested the numbers on this in a long time, the last time I did I believe it was 8 - 10 fp per shot vs m5's 6 - 7.
 
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Why M5 drains FP like that? Main fire for T21 and proj rifle should take a big amount of FP - and also... wrist laser which is useless right now and i think it deserve a fix

Is there a table which shows how much Fp weapons drains?
 
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I like the idea of making snipers more of an investment risk and a support tool. The weapon should be given to a class with less durability, or cause the user to have less equipment when carrying one.
 
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@Liniyka_xddd
Looking at that spreadsheet K4far linked - most guns actually drain FP from 100 to 0 in between 5 and 10 shots if you can land all your shots on target against a running saberist, the M5 is actually only 0.21 shots (EE-3's 4.59 vs M5's 4.38) faster than the EE-3 in terms of shots to drain versus a running target.

I am surprised to see how little FP drain the pistols cause though, I'm not sure if the numbers in the sheet are off or if they've been changed since I last used the clone pistols actively like four years ago, it could also be something to do with the higher rate of fire as you're almost putting out two shots for every single shot the M5 is putting out.
 
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I made this forum account because Appo graciously invited me to give my thoughts on snipers. I've bitched about a lot of mechanics of this game, but no aspect of this game has consistently gotten my goat enough to warrant making a forum account so much as sniping.

Snipers aren't very fun. The scope is so comically easy to use that when I get embarrassed at how low my sith's K/D is I can switch to a sniper and be back up to a positive ratio in just a few rounds. To be clear, I'm not countering classes that can take out jedi/sith easily but not snipers, I'm killing every class with the sniper.

Comparing MB2 to other shooters' snipers is a false equivalency. Most other shooters are either hitscan or projectiles with a realistic velocity. In MB2, most other gunners have projectiles that move fast enough to spot, or are at least telegraphed with pretty lights and loud sounds. The projectile rifle fires the fastest projectile in the game that has an orange, dull glow compared to the neon lights of other ammunition and is silent as a fucking gasp. It makes sense for other games to reward good marksmanship with insta-kills on bodyshots, but MB2 gunners are especially fucked when they go up against snipers- as most snipers can peek, fire, and return to cover before a blaster bolt has a chance to make it to where the sniper's head used to be. Yes, gunners are able to sometimes overwhelm snipers, but their kits don't provide a reliable defense against them. I don't think a decade of familiarity with a class and engine is a sufficient answer to how to counter snipers properly.
 
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The fastest projectile in the game is the Disruptor's, because it doesn't have one, and it's hitscan. lel

Realize that most good duelists are garbage at open, and most Sith/Jedi who are good at open are garbage at dueling. The two modes require far different mindsets. I find far too often that a good duelist will do really stupid shit in obvious situations. For example:

I have seen players like Achillies, and Tempest do stupid things like refuse to retreat into the Generator Room from Hangar on DOTF while dueling, despite the fact that a sniper has taken at least 3 shots already on them, and it's obvious there's a sniper trying to end the duel. Oooooops, the sniper took a 4th shot and finally killed you, guess snipurs are op riteeee!?!?!?

Meanwhile, I have gotten so bored with dueling, I often meme it with Cyan in the mode, and very often I don't use a lightsaber at all while playing Sith/Jedi, and I've had games where I've gotten 35/7 as a Forcewhore with Lightning, and melee on maps like Mygeeto, where there's no cover, and it's all open. I actually have a demo where I run up an open field on an ARC Trooper with Dex 3 cause I got bored, I dodged all of his gunfire manually, got up close, and beat him to death by using Lightning Stun every second or so to shut off his gun and get a few punches in. I have that one on demo.

Hey, do you know how I figured out I could super push people who were in an idle standing position? I crept up on dumbfuck snipers still scoped in while their team was pushing the bridges on Deathstar, and I actually was able to repeat the act so many times, I learned a new trick while getting bored ambushing snipers.

Also, like to point out, that it's impossible not to hear proj, if you're in the same room as the shooter. It's a moderately loud noise, and very distinctive, however maybe I'm biased on that one. I play without music, and I hear everything.

-

just try to realize that the number of shit sith/jedi in this game greatly outnumbers that of the shit gunners and while someone may be a shit jedi/sith they are often not a bad gunner.

i think the real issues u guys need to look at are things like SBD cus man i walked into tr deathstar fully popped after like 3 months away and sith were getting steamrolled by the jedi army so i switched to sbd and was like 30/2 in 4 rounds cus sbd is the most op shit against jedi, even when they learned to facehug, that didnt help cus i knew how to backpedal

oh wait most open jedi are shit individually thats why lol
 
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That is pure exaggeration. I cannot fathom a single person who plays ARC M5 sniper so well that that assertion holds true. Scoped M5 does a bit too much health damage, and before that an obnoxious amount of FP damage.

M5 sniper performs well against soldier because it is a high-velocity, high-damage weapon versus a slow-moving, fragile class. P3 or EE3 normal fire will do the exact same thing to a soldier.
You've obviously never seen me, ULLR, Turtle, Gumba or Sunflower play M5. I think I'm one of the main reasons people want to see this weapon nerfed on EU. Not even shitting here.

When devs said M5 was going to get a damage upgrade many, many years ago, I distinctly remember crying out against it, as I already found the weapon to be OP, as I had been playing it since day one release. They went through with it, immediately saw how broken and OP it was; but a patch to balance it never came. It could've been a 5kb patch just changing the damage values to be a bit lower again, but nope. So as ARC has been my main class since the introduction of the M5 sniper, I can safely tell, it is without a doubt, along with EE3, THE BEST GUN IN THE GAME

(Edit: I am guilty of asking for 600 ammo for it, I regret nothing)
 
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You've obviously never seen me, ULLR, Turtle, Gumba or Sunflower play M5. I think I'm one of the main reasons people want to see this weapon nerfed on EU. Not even shitting here.

When devs said M5 was going to get a damage upgrade many, many years ago, I distinctly remember crying out against it, as I already found the weapon to be OP, as I had been playing it since day one release. They went through with it, immediately saw how broken and OP it was; but a patch to balance it never came. It could've been a 5kb patch just changing the damage values to be a bit lower again, but nope. So as ARC has been my main class since the introduction of the M5 sniper, I can safely tell, it is without a doubt, along with EE3, THE BEST GUN IN THE GAME

(Edit: I am guilty of asking for 600 ammo for it, I regret nothing)

Aye, the scoped M5 is broken as shit right now.

The standard M5 is a solid weapon at rank 1 for its price though, but is inferior to the dualies in every single way including point cost. The only reason to use the unscoped M5 at the moment is to run it rank 2 because you prefer it over the pistols for whatever reason, otherwise you run it at rank 1 with a scope.
 
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