Snipers.

Discussion in 'Feedback & Gameplay' started by CC-1119 'Appo', May 10, 2018.

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  1. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    The M5 Rank 2 is fine and really doesn't need a buff considering that the gun is pinpoint accurate and on the most agile class in the game, it's an accurate weapon but objectively worse than pistols rank 3 in terms of FP drain and DPS which is fair considering that as a base weapon it is cheaper and pistols have weapon convergence to deal with which can result in misses if the player doesn't account for it.

    The M5 is competitive at rank 1 (10pts) while the pistols are only competitive as a primary weapon at rank 3 (14 pts) so that's fair in terms of price as far as I'm concerned, the extra accuracy from rank 2 m5 is more than enough of a boost to justify the 6pt investment on some builds IMO. I'm not a fan of losing playstyles from any class but for ARC sniper, I do not see many changes that could be made outside of making the scope mode far less accurate when wallrunning and arc-fuing around - that would make the playstyle more of a fair fight to compete against because as it stands, the scoped M5 is absolutely broken.

    There's no reason to take any other playstyle as an ARC once you master the scoped M5 outside of maybe a pulse grenade if the enemy team is spamming droids. You can wallrun and avoid incoming fire and then retaliate with pinpoint accurate shots which can three shot most gunners on bodyshots not even looking at headshots. Yes, the ARC requires a lot of skill in a lot of different areas to do this but once you master it there's basically nothing any other gunner, not even an opposing sniper, can really do to you unless they have extra lives to try and whittle you down or hit you with explosives/lightning to pin you down.

    The ARC already has a choice between sniper/grenade launcher/improved M5 - there's no point taking M5 rank 2 if you have the sniper as it doesn't affect scoped mode, rank 1 M5 + scope is just as accurate in scope as rank 2 M5, and having M5 hipfire be pinpoint is worthless versus dropping 1 rank of ammo to get dual pistols/pistol 3 with the 6pts saved on rank 2 m5 and the 4pts for ammo.

    Playing ARC with Scoped M5, while it takes skill, is no less busted than any other cheese you can accomplish with snipers as they currently stand. In fact, against soldiers, commanders, ETs, etc - I'd argue it might even be the most broken sniper in the game. The others at least have to be in a somewhat predictable position which can leave them vulnerable to grenades or flanks while the ARC can just run all over the place while firing with 100% accuracy. And he only has to pay 20pts for that power, leaving more than enough to get dex 3 (30pts), stam 2 (10pts) and a fair bit of armour and ammo.

    EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I love ARC and I love the mobility focused, accurate firepower that the class brings to the table but there is a limit. Running around with a nade launcher/pistols or just a regular m5 rank 2 + some pulse nades you can throw - fair enough, you're an agile gunner who can mess with sith and throw people's aim off. However, an agile sniper that can outgun most gunners while also being far more mobile and with the possibility to max out their armour or drop a few points of ammo/armor to have dual pistols in reserve? Far too much power on one loadout no matter how much skill it takes to pull off IMO. Something's gotta give.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  2. Crusader

    Crusader

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    That is pure exaggeration. I cannot fathom a single person who plays ARC M5 sniper so well that that assertion holds true. Scoped M5 does a bit too much health damage, and before that an obnoxious amount of FP damage.

    M5 sniper performs well against soldier because it is a high-velocity, high-damage weapon versus a slow-moving, fragile class. P3 or EE3 normal fire will do the exact same thing to a soldier.
     
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  3. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    That's not an exaggeration. The only thing keeping it in check is player skill, mechanically - it is far too powerful. If I genuinely put the hours in to familiarize myself with scoped M5 playstyle further, if I put away my restraint to not use the scoped m5, I guarantee you - I would have people crying for it to be nerfed in two months of my usual on/off playtime at most.

    The difference is that P3 doesn't allow you to engage at maximum range very easily, the soldier usually fights a P3 user at a distance where both parties can track each other relatively easily and can trade hits so worst case scenario, a soldier gets three chances to wound a P3 user to such a degree with each life that by the third life at least they can achieve victory, whilst an ARC w/ scoped m5 which engages you at those ranges will have a far more varied moveset than hero/bh which makes tracking a lot harder and they can two shot bodyshot or one shot headshot if they come up against a commander or a soldier. Regular EE-3 versus a soldier is a bit more even however, as an EE-3 can generally be traded with because a soldier's E-11 can compete with it up close and a mandalorian has a far more limited moveset than an ARC.

    EDIT: I'm not saying that anyone currently playing has bothered to practice to such a degree that plain as day examples of how broken it is are visible (though some of the CE7 guys sure are close), but I'm saying that if anyone actually bothered to put the time in to play ARC w/ scoped m5 long enough to familiarize themselves both with the scoped playstyle (habits for flickshots, sensitivity configuration, etc.) as well as ARC-FU, they'd basically break the game for most gunner classes. Bear in mind, this doesn't really apply to meta snipers (proj/ruptor) or saberists - as both of these can still shut down a M5 Scoped/EE-3 Scoped user very quickly, the latter only if it's not in an open area as catching an ARC in the open is pretty difficult if they do not make many mistakes.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  4. Crusader

    Crusader

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    People have put in time to play ARC with sniper. I've seen Hex., Nex, Threep., Shocker, Gargos (I think I remember a green ARC), Lini., and Seras. They are all capable of aiming. I can't think of a single time I've been against M5 sniper where I have thought there is not a single class or strategy I could employ to win. Toning the damage down is really only as far as I would go, because that truly is the problem.

    I only compare P3, M5 sniper and EE3 in that they are all relatively high-velocity and high-damage. Getting hit in the head by any one of them by soldier is pretty much game. You could argue favourable/unfavourable situations for the match-up until the cows come home. It is a positioning problem more so than any inherent property of the weapon.

    I proposed making EMP-launcher, sniper, and improved M5 (with changed properties) exclusive such that the improved M5 is clearly the better choice in CQC rather than the rank 1 M5 tied in with sniper and launcher. The converse could be also be possible and the base stats of M5 1 weakened in comparison to M5 2. But the underlying theme of this is to tinker with stats, not remove.
     
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  5. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    It'd probably be worth testing most of the things mentioned in your post so it's probably best we leave that argument there, I wouldn't mind seeing some changes proposed to the scoped M5 whether in the form of damage or accuracy tweaks. However, in regards to those ARC w/ sniper players, there is a key factor in those players you've listed. That key factor is that none of those players also combine it with a healthy dose of ARC-fu as far as I am aware.

    They use the scoped M5 and arc mobility almost separately, what I mean is they will either use ARC-fu to get to an advantageous position such as on-top of a fence or doorway and then snipe from there or they will use the heightened jump from dex 3 in order to jump over boxes while shooting but they will rarely combine it with wallrun + snipe or lunge + snipe and such in the same way that more aggressive ARC-fu playstyles work. However, a player that makes that sort of playstyle the norm, combining an intensely aggressive ARC-fu playstyle with the raw power of the scoped M5 will basically just remove the need for any other loadout unless they're fighting droids or soldier spam, where an EMP or a PLX respectively might be more useful. It practically turns the scoped M5 into a shotgun loaded with slug shells (powerful at long and close range) for that sort of playstyle, as long as they have the muscle memory and mouse setup to consistently pull it off.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  6. Liniyka_xddd

    Liniyka_xddd

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    My problem with M5 sniper is the fact that it's way too easy to use. Pick dex3 and you can hop around like an idiot and spam the hell out of that sniper mode (due to the mag size buff). And since a lot of players aren't used to tracking jumping gunners, you will evade most shots simply by jumping randomly.

    This playstyle is braindead-tier easy and is extremely rewarding. And while I can't deny that it's fun, I'd like to see something done to it.
     
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  7. MaceMadunusus

    MaceMadunusus Level Designer Movie Battles II Team

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    P3 has a velocity of 5500 where as M5 and EE3 sniper modes are 9000. Pretty big difference between the two groups. E-11 primary is 5500, secondary 4000 and proj is 10000 for reference.
     
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  8. Crusader

    Crusader

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    I think that's justifiably fast. I also mean to say the EE3 normal fire, which is lower still. I realise that goes against the grain of what I was saying, but at the effective range you use these guns, there isn't much of a perceivable difference. Obviously when you go onto maps like Mygeeto that statement holds little weight.

    Thinking on M5 sniper damage, maybe gut the damage to 35 and then tailor up/down on feedback. I wouldn't adjust the capacity, because I think that is the defining characteristic of the sniper.
     
  9. Gumba

    Gumba

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    M5>EE3>>Ruptor>Proj
    This is the current powerlevel for snipers.
    Does M5 need a rework? - No
    Does M5 need to get less damage? - Yes
    Does EE3 need to be less accurate? - Yes
    Does EE3 need to get quickscope removed? - Yes
     
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  10. Lessen

    Lessen Childpuncher Movie Battles II Team

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    The Westar M5 has the highest FP drain multiplier in the game tho.

    I don't have Mace's/Tempest's spreadsheet on hand but I'm pretty sure M5's super-high drain multiplier makes it a stronger FP drainer than the pistols, and I'd argue that the lower damage-per-shot compared to pistols is more than compensated for by the simpler accuracy (pinpoint on a single spot instead of two alternating spots like pistols). So all-in-all I agree with you that level 2 M5 doesn't need a buff at all.

    (I also agree with you that M5 Sniper should be toned down a bit. Tempest himself gave a pretty strong showing of how good M5 Sniper + Jumping Around is in the Beta.)
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  11. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    @lessen
    AFAIK the pistols have slightly higher FP drain, like 2 more per hit but they also shoot faster so they drain FP faster in the same way that they have higher DPS, this could be out of date though as I haven't tested the numbers on this in a long time, the last time I did I believe it was 8 - 10 fp per shot vs m5's 6 - 7.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  12. Liniyka_xddd

    Liniyka_xddd

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    M5 (full auto) drains a running sith to 0 FP in 6 shots.
     
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  13. Langerd

    Langerd

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    Why M5 drains FP like that? Main fire for T21 and proj rifle should take a big amount of FP - and also... wrist laser which is useless right now and i think it deserve a fix

    Is there a table which shows how much Fp weapons drains?
     
  14. k4far

    k4far Donator

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  15. EWMeh

    EWMeh Internal Beta Team

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    I like the idea of making snipers more of an investment risk and a support tool. The weapon should be given to a class with less durability, or cause the user to have less equipment when carrying one.
     
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  16. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    @Liniyka_xddd
    Looking at that spreadsheet K4far linked - most guns actually drain FP from 100 to 0 in between 5 and 10 shots if you can land all your shots on target against a running saberist, the M5 is actually only 0.21 shots (EE-3's 4.59 vs M5's 4.38) faster than the EE-3 in terms of shots to drain versus a running target.

    I am surprised to see how little FP drain the pistols cause though, I'm not sure if the numbers in the sheet are off or if they've been changed since I last used the clone pistols actively like four years ago, it could also be something to do with the higher rate of fire as you're almost putting out two shots for every single shot the M5 is putting out.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  17. SlashBolt

    SlashBolt

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    I made this forum account because Appo graciously invited me to give my thoughts on snipers. I've bitched about a lot of mechanics of this game, but no aspect of this game has consistently gotten my goat enough to warrant making a forum account so much as sniping.

    Snipers aren't very fun. The scope is so comically easy to use that when I get embarrassed at how low my sith's K/D is I can switch to a sniper and be back up to a positive ratio in just a few rounds. To be clear, I'm not countering classes that can take out jedi/sith easily but not snipers, I'm killing every class with the sniper.

    Comparing MB2 to other shooters' snipers is a false equivalency. Most other shooters are either hitscan or projectiles with a realistic velocity. In MB2, most other gunners have projectiles that move fast enough to spot, or are at least telegraphed with pretty lights and loud sounds. The projectile rifle fires the fastest projectile in the game that has an orange, dull glow compared to the neon lights of other ammunition and is silent as a fucking gasp. It makes sense for other games to reward good marksmanship with insta-kills on bodyshots, but MB2 gunners are especially fucked when they go up against snipers- as most snipers can peek, fire, and return to cover before a blaster bolt has a chance to make it to where the sniper's head used to be. Yes, gunners are able to sometimes overwhelm snipers, but their kits don't provide a reliable defense against them. I don't think a decade of familiarity with a class and engine is a sufficient answer to how to counter snipers properly.
     
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  18. Rosh+

    Rosh+ Internal Beta Team US Official Server Admin

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    The fastest projectile in the game is the Disruptor's, because it doesn't have one, and it's hitscan. lel

    Realize that most good duelists are garbage at open, and most Sith/Jedi who are good at open are garbage at dueling. The two modes require far different mindsets. I find far too often that a good duelist will do really stupid shit in obvious situations. For example:

    I have seen players like Achillies, and Tempest do stupid things like refuse to retreat into the Generator Room from Hangar on DOTF while dueling, despite the fact that a sniper has taken at least 3 shots already on them, and it's obvious there's a sniper trying to end the duel. Oooooops, the sniper took a 4th shot and finally killed you, guess snipurs are op riteeee!?!?!?

    Meanwhile, I have gotten so bored with dueling, I often meme it with Cyan in the mode, and very often I don't use a lightsaber at all while playing Sith/Jedi, and I've had games where I've gotten 35/7 as a Forcewhore with Lightning, and melee on maps like Mygeeto, where there's no cover, and it's all open. I actually have a demo where I run up an open field on an ARC Trooper with Dex 3 cause I got bored, I dodged all of his gunfire manually, got up close, and beat him to death by using Lightning Stun every second or so to shut off his gun and get a few punches in. I have that one on demo.

    Hey, do you know how I figured out I could super push people who were in an idle standing position? I crept up on dumbfuck snipers still scoped in while their team was pushing the bridges on Deathstar, and I actually was able to repeat the act so many times, I learned a new trick while getting bored ambushing snipers.

    Also, like to point out, that it's impossible not to hear proj, if you're in the same room as the shooter. It's a moderately loud noise, and very distinctive, however maybe I'm biased on that one. I play without music, and I hear everything.

    -

    just try to realize that the number of shit sith/jedi in this game greatly outnumbers that of the shit gunners and while someone may be a shit jedi/sith they are often not a bad gunner.

    i think the real issues u guys need to look at are things like SBD cus man i walked into tr deathstar fully popped after like 3 months away and sith were getting steamrolled by the jedi army so i switched to sbd and was like 30/2 in 4 rounds cus sbd is the most op shit against jedi, even when they learned to facehug, that didnt help cus i knew how to backpedal

    oh wait most open jedi are shit individually thats why lol
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
  19. Flokker

    Flokker

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    You've obviously never seen me, ULLR, Turtle, Gumba or Sunflower play M5. I think I'm one of the main reasons people want to see this weapon nerfed on EU. Not even shitting here.

    When devs said M5 was going to get a damage upgrade many, many years ago, I distinctly remember crying out against it, as I already found the weapon to be OP, as I had been playing it since day one release. They went through with it, immediately saw how broken and OP it was; but a patch to balance it never came. It could've been a 5kb patch just changing the damage values to be a bit lower again, but nope. So as ARC has been my main class since the introduction of the M5 sniper, I can safely tell, it is without a doubt, along with EE3, THE BEST GUN IN THE GAME

    (Edit: I am guilty of asking for 600 ammo for it, I regret nothing)
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
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  20. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    Aye, the scoped M5 is broken as shit right now.

    The standard M5 is a solid weapon at rank 1 for its price though, but is inferior to the dualies in every single way including point cost. The only reason to use the unscoped M5 at the moment is to run it rank 2 because you prefer it over the pistols for whatever reason, otherwise you run it at rank 1 with a scope.
     
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