Snipers.

Discussion in 'Feedback & Gameplay' started by CC-1119 'Appo', May 10, 2018.

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  1. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    I'm throwing this thread up here just to gather some opinions and thoughts on how we can rework or, if no solid alternative is available, replace snipers in MB2. The issue with snipers as it currently stands is that they provide an incredible boost to killing power at any range without requiring more skill to use effectively. Many of them provide one hit kills on body-shots and almost all of them providing OHK on headshot, this is clearly influenced by other FPS/TPS games but doesn't take into account that in MB2, all guns have travel time - and snipers travel faster, meaning they always provide significantly more accuracy and much higher reward for being able to keep your aim on target than other weapons.

    It requires the same skill as any other class of gunner but provides significantly more reward with the ability to practically instantly kill any class and if you have taken the time to get your sensitivity setup, you can even flick-shot at point blank to instantly kill a saberist as they swing, with pretty much zero counter-play outside of Grip or Lightning, both of which are Sith powers.

    Almost all the sniper weapons in this game allow you to kill significantly better gunners simply by holding corners, using flick-shots and then the only option the gunner has versus the sniper is to either hope a saberist can deal with them, use a grenade which can be avoided or hope that their opponent misses at any range.

    Even at point blank, the only thing keeping you alive against a sniper is that they can't aim or are stuck using a ruptor while out of position, which at least requires some repositioning - but is no less OP when setup, as it is literally hitscan instadeath.
    On that note - the ruptor needs to either be made projectile or it needs to deal MUCH less damage and charge much faster, acting more like a battle rifle than a sniper rifle. Having a hitscan sniper that can instakill on a full charge is one of the most broken things I've seen in this mod.

    This is an issue, because it has become meta, there is functionally no reason to take the Westar M5 without a scope or to take the EE-3 at less than Rank 3, with the ruptor and proj basically become a standard for bh/hero respectively as they can then also spend some points for ridiculously cheap sidearms which can out damage or compete with all opponents. But thankfully, those sidearms will only really function at the same range as regular gunner weapons which creates a mostly level playing field.

    So, my first proposed solution to this issue is as follows:

    Reduce all sniper damage on body-shot, significantly. You should be dealing only slightly more damage than a regular blaster bolt (around 50 - 70 damage) on body-shots, this goes for the proj, ruptor, ee3 scoped & m5 scoped - they should all be dealing roughly the same damage on body-shot and it should not be a viable way to get kills, finishing off a wounded player sure but never taking someone out who has full armor and health in a single strike, not even a soldier.

    Personally
    , I am absolutely fine with headshots rewarding you with an instant kill because, while the only requirement still remains that you need to be able to aim consistently, the area to hit is much smaller and better reflects skill with options for counter play from other gunners in how they approach you, as your target is 1/6th the size of the rest of the body and is much harder hit due to the nature of movement in MB2. Direction changes can, with a target that small, throw off the sniper's aim significantly and the possibility for a gunner to jump at a sniper around a corner or throw a crouch into their movement/strafe pattern, making a headshot nearly impossible without some superhuman prediction.

    My second solution is to significantly reduce the damage snipers deal up close, they should have an 'accelerating' damage system, dealing full damage at roughly the full length of DOTF's main corridor from mid doors to the wall that can be seen by imps towards hangar. This sort of system will allow snipers to still function as a lethal threat at long range but hugely penalizes inaccuracy, it means that you either have to be consistently accurate or sniper will not be rewarding for you. This sort of system will be rewarding players that can consistently land shots at long range while penalizing those who use it to cover corners and doorways.

    This sort of system also encourages snipers to play like snipers - you can't simply hold a corner and expect to get easy instant kills on anyone who tries to push you, you must give ground or switch to your sidearm when combat gets close and personal. I think out of all three options, this is the best one for everyone involved.

    The third and final solution is the most drastic and rather than being a genuine one, only a last resort if we really can't come up with any other changes, and that would be to remove snipers from open mode. Replace them with some more unique pieces of kit, I can't say what - but stuff like the Disruptor Cannon from single-player JKA but with a massively increased cooldown/travel time could be nice to see amongst other things, basically, give BH and Hero some more 'experimental' and out there equipment if the steps to remove snipers from these classes are taken.

    Mandalorian sniper in this solution, just change it to function like an A280 in scope - a burst fire weapon, the M5 sniper should be completely removed - it doesn't need to be there when rank 2 M5 makes the gun pinpoint accurate anyway, you don't even have to add anything to replace it.

    Right, now that lot is up here, I'd love to have some discussion going - obviously, be courteous.
    I have no doubt stepped on some toes in making this thread but I do hope we can get along and debate, see what works and what could be changed to make sniper vs gunner gameplay more fair - because right now, the sniper only loses if he makes a mistake or if his aim is bad, it matters not whether he is up close or at range, the ability to accurately flickshot or not is the only thing which decides whether or not the gunner will survive to fight the sniper on relatively even terrain, though even that is up in the air as some players will just flickshot at 5 - 10 meters distance using a proj/ee3 scoped/m5 scoped as well.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
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  2. k4far

    k4far Donator

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    Harsh ammo cuts.

    If you miss 10 times then hit me with 11th you suck as a sniper. You should be out of ammo at that point. Jedi is dead after 1 wasted Push/Pull.
     
  3. Lessen

    Lessen Childpuncher Movie Battles II Team

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    My suggestions, stated as succinctly as possible:

    Either: Make sniper purchasing line require more investment, a la PLX. Make it require so much investment that to go full sniper means you don't have any points left to buy a decent sidearm.

    Or: Make all sniper weapons unscope when you move (perhaps including crouching/uncrouching, to prevent all popsniping across the board), and make them all have a proj-esque delay between scoping and firing.

    Or: Just unscope when shot to make suppression more reliable. And re-work M5 and EE-3. From what I've heard from Tempest, this sounds like the direction we may be going in already.
     
  4. Blazer

    Blazer

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    Good points, but also a few I disagree with. The problem is that 90% of people don't play in a style that counters snipers. It isn't hard.

    If you die from snipers this much, you should learn to play to avoid them.
    I hated snipers 2 years ago but I can tell you I haven't died more than 50 times in the past 2 years from snipers, because I learn from my mistakes.
    That doesn't mean they are still overpowered, I personally don't have a problem with them, but I think what k4far said is what I really want. Level 2 ammo + proj gives you like 12 bullets, that's enough to kill the whole enemy team in a 24 player server. Proj ammo needs to be 3/6/8 tbh
     
  5. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    Learning to counter snipers as a gunner basically boils down to limiting exposure but even in rather bad hands, snipers will generally force you to hug cover which is fair enough, but in good hands - you cannot push a sniper without taking a hit (which is almost always death) in most cases especially when facing a disruptor, and when pushing doorways the only reason you will ever be able to push a sniper through a tight angle is by surprising them with a jump around the corner, baiting a misfire or hoping that they miss - otherwise you're pretty much toast regardless of what class you play barring saberists.

    Even if they only had 2 - 3 shots per round, that's still a potential for someone to instantly kill 2 - 3 players with zero counter-play from the other team or the person being targeted. If someone fires a sniper rifle at you, the only limiting factor is how accurate the guy holding the sniper rifle is - that is what decides whether you either take a lot of damage/die while trying to push an angle or whether they miss you/land a leg shot which doesn't deal much damage.

    Not to mention how almost all classes which have access to a sniper type weapon can also have amazing sidearms to protect themselves should someone like a soldier or a commander get close enough to pose a threat, they can simply pull out an E-11, P3, A280/DLT520 or a similar weapon and annihilate opponents that have outplayed them to get to close range as well, which in my opinion is something that absolutely should not be happening.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
  6. Zilenan91

    Zilenan91

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    Honestly yeah snipers are really overpowered and not in a fun way, and their counters aren't very good at the moment. The mando sniper in particular is really dumb because it means that certain classes like Soldier and ET are almost completely unviable on Republic side because the Mando can get to ANY vantage point and shoot you with an instakill or near-instakill bodyshot.

    The projectile rifle is also really dumb because its whole gameplay is just strafing around cover and one-shot killing people with next-to-no risk to yourself. This makes one-life gunners very not fun to play because if someone is playing sniper who is really good at cover strafing you essentially can't push period. Though I do think the disruptor rifle is fine on its own. You have to sit still in order to use and it takes a second in order to charge up to full power. It gets a bit ridiculous on some maps like Death Star though where a BH with the disruptor can hide all the way in the corner of Imperial Spawn and wait for a guy to turn his back for a second and he's dead in one shot, making it way too hard to push. Outside of map-specific situations, every time I've died to a disruptor I felt like it was my fault and I could have done something about it because the sniper already has to expose himself a good amount in order to take the shot.

    It also doesn't help that most of the classes with the best sniper-flushing tools outside of Soldier have overpriced grenades.
    Commander and ET are way overcosted on all of their grenades because you give up too much of your kit with things like fire grenades that don't even light people on fire when they get hit right in the face with a fire grenade, sonics that cost 10 and do zero damage, and frag grenades which are good but because they cost a lot you can't have as many as you would want on a 2-life class. Commander is supposed to be the grenade class but Soldiers can hold more than they can overall, you literally can't buy all four grenades as a Commander/ET without getting rid of your respawn, and then after all that you're a one-life class with 2 useful grenades, 2 shit grenades, 20 armor, and a level 2 E-11. Just drop the price of sonics by like eight points, fire grenades by 10, and frags by 5 and snipers will have a more consistent counter for both teams because grenades are going to be way easier to come across.

    For other classes than the basic gunners, Wookiee grenades are just a fucking joke at 10 points each, and they don't play to the class identity at all; Wookiee is supposed to be a class that's just a big sack of health who runs at dudes or just runs at them and punches their limbs off, not a gunner with no points left for a good primary weapon. Hero grenades are ok but then you give up some other parts of your kit, which is fair because you can have up to 3 frag grenades which is really powerful. ARC grenades are reasonably-priced if you take the Westar grenade launcher but not very good otherwise.
     
  7. Mr Happy Fridge

    Mr Happy Fridge Donator Internal Beta Team

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    My opinion is going to be slightly biased since snipers are my favourite class all round (Hero, Arc, BH, Mando).
    I’d rather have them not removed of course but as you say, they do need a better counter. I’d rather not nerf Proj but the PLX style ammo system is a good way to go, I could also settle for damage increase/decrease on certain parts of the body but dropping Torso shots to do around 40 dmg is way too extreme due to the long reload time, also I’m sure E11 primary probably does around that amount of dmg so what would be the point in the extra points.

    Another gripe I have with this is that it’ll make Hero class near useless bar quick-throw. Proj nerf, dodge nerf, potential removal of heal.
    What would the be point of playing that class?

    I can agree with Disruptor though, there’s literally no way to counter it gunner-wise, you can’t dodge it and you can’t out snipe it unless the person misses, which is rare. Even if they do get close they don’t even have to swap to a secondary you can literally just carry on shooting which is pretty ridiculous. An overheat system to counter this weapon potentially? You can’t hold it at max charge for so long or it rapidly drains ammo, it’s only during this period you can land the instant hitscan kill? Before full charge it only deals Westar M5 sniper mode levels of damage?

    Arc sniper mode is completely balanced imo, body shots do decent dmg, headshots are rewarding and it drains decent amount of ammo when in use. The weapon seems more DMR-like than Sniper like.
    Which is what EE3 Sniper mode should be like, it should still more damage than your average E11 shot or the sniper shots should drain significantly more ammo than it does already, which would punish you for missing.

    I am completely against out right removing any of these from the game though, ruin one persons experience to benefit another is not the way forward. But still, it is a majority vote I suppose.
     
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  8. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    Honestly, I don't want to see snipers removed either @Mr Happy Fridge - the option is only in the OP as a choice if literally nothing can be done to make snipers less overbearing on regular gunners. I mean, I exclusively play ARC so I'm somewhat fortunate enough that I can bait snipers a lot easier than most classes but classes like sold, et, commander, clone, wook and even sbd are mostly at the mercy of snipers at any range, whether trying to fight them at long range using cover or at close range trying to push their angle. One hit is all it takes to either kill or take a huge portion of health away in most cases.

    ARC sniper mode can be alright if the ARC doesn't use it while wallrunning but people who combine that with arc-fu/dexterity playstyles will get a huge boost to their effectiveness, you can literally wallrun and land headshots perfectly across the length of DOTF corridor which might actually be even more overpowered than the disruptor in good hands.

    I'm actually rather curious how an accelerating sniper damage system would work, with snipers dealing maximum damage at longer ranges and decreasing as a target gets closer, to try and minimize that ability of holding an angle for easy instant kills versus most classes, it would force snipers to have to reposition a lot more though - as they couldn't hold close quarters angles in many situations, but that might just put more reliance on side-arms.
     
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  9. SneakDissing

    SneakDissing

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    Movie battles has existed for roughly 16 years now (counting Movie Battles 1 which was released in 2002 I think, on the Jedi Outcast game) and people are still complaining about snipers? There's nothing wrong with snipers, lol. It's like saying "shotguns shouldn't exist in Call of Duty", and like MB2's sniper class, it's just a part of the game that the majority of it's playerbase sees it as unfair. It's literally a part of Star Wars canon. Should snipers be nerfed, taken down a notch? No, because there's nothing wrong with them. The problem has nothing to do with Hero or Bounty Hunter. The problem is with the other classes.

    People often complain because of the sniper's advantage compared to their own disadvantage. Look at it from this perspective: The majority of complaints I hear usually go a little something like this: "snipers are gay" or "WTF" whenever they die by a player who used their environment, as well as their sniper rifle, to their advantage to hide from a distance and do ranged attacks. There's nothing wrong with this, people are just extremely salty when they don't know where the sniper was. Or, as they say, when they "don't know how they died". Ponder about this before you reply with some salty ass comment proving me wrong. People complain about sniper because they don't like it. Notice that the people that actually play sniper don't say shit (most of the time), it's always the victim because they see it's unfair and they want an advantage so that they can kill the sniper.

    I've been here since Movie Battles 1, and this has always been a constant issue with the playerbase. I've killed snipers just fine with soldier class, or even force whore. Literally every class has a fair counter to Hero/Bounty Hunter. SBD has a protection against it, if you build in the points for it. We don't need to talk about Sith or Jedi, lol. ET has dodge, which is only effective on body shots. But, if a sniper does manage to headshot an ET with dodge, kudos to them, they deserve the kill for having good accuracy. Now, I know what you're gonna say. "But SneakDissing, snipers in MB2 have no recoil so it's cheating!!! they just aim and shoot!!!11!13q3eeqe!~!!!!" Yes, while this may stand true, my point still stands. MB2 is a fucking 2003-2004 mod (can't remember which), nothing has recoil. You can't roll a gunner and complain when sniper has no recoil. Neither do you.

    Honestly, people are just finding excuses to make up for the salt they have for sniper classes. It's the same scenario as I said earlier with shotguns in Call of Duty. There's nothing wrong with them, people just complain because they don't know how to counter. If you haven't read the Library guide our amazing development team has provided, then you really have no place in complaining about snipers. Do I believe counters to sniper should be made more clear, or even buffed? Yes. Not by much though, they're still pretty obvious, but I do think the developers should look into this.
     
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  10. Smee

    Smee

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    So your solution is to make snipers absolutely useless except for specific scenarios where the sniper is camping 100m away from the action?
     
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  11. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    Not to start one, but your post looks like it's only here to start an argument rather than debate the merits of either the argument for or against snipers.

    As far as the first paragraph goes, canon/lore/fluff has no effect on balance - ARC troopers are seen as fodder compared to Sith and yet in this game you can use superior mobility through the dex skill as an ARC trooper to outplay Sith, in the same way that all gunners can actually compete with saberists to some degree whereas in 'canon' they would barely pose a threat to even a Padawan. The player who operates the sniper rifle isn't going to talk smack, of course, because they have no reason to - they likely just killed someone in a single shot and there are still many to play whilst their opponent was robbed a fair fight by being instantly shut down at, pretty much any range even up close, without a chance to fight back unless the sniper isn't able to land their shots.

    As for the rest of this, I mean - there's no argument for or against the merit of snipers in here, you're only attempting to explain away why people think there are issues with snipers despite that there demonstrably is an issue with snipers being the objectively best class for a skilled gunner to use for almost every situation. Barring a few circumstances where cheesing with wook/sbd can be more effective like on Smuggler or Enclave. You've killed snipers fine with soldier or force whore because the sniper made a mistake or had latency issues, that's the truth of it. If the sniper can land their shots, the only thing that keeps them in check is their latency.

    Please - this thread exists for the purposes of debating the merit of snipers and whether they should/how they should be changed, not for petty attempts at discrediting opposing viewpoints and a lot of anecdotal explanations.
     
  12. SneakDissing

    SneakDissing

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    That's not my intention here, I'm just trying to state that there's no real problem with sniper. just a lil tired of seeing people complain/debate about them. Snipers are probably the most balanced class in the game.
     
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  13. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    Feel free to contribute your own, but those would remove the possibility for snipers to land one hit kills easily in situations where they really shouldn't be able to, I don't take an E-11 and expect to win at long range - a hero/bh/mando/arc shouldn't take a sniper/scoped weapon and expect to win at close range, my second proposed solution would still add the possibility of hefty damage on torso which almost every sniper in the game could follow up with a P3 headshot for an instant kill or 2 - 3 bodyshots, or just pull out an E-11/BH wingun and light 'em up.
     
  14. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    I have to disagree, just from a logical point of view. The only thing that stops a sniper from one shotting you, at any range, is their accuracy. If they can land the majority of their hits - the majority of their shots will be one-shot kills, there is a penalty for missing but the issue is in the first place that they can draw a sniper rifle and essentially lock down long and close range, as long as they've got the skills to keep up with it.

    Don't get me wrong though, I have a lot of respect for people who can reliably pull of those flickshots. It is easier than playing regular gunner and slugging it out with an E-11 as you actually have to track an opponent with that, but it still takes a considerable amount of focus and practice to get your muscle memory to that point.

    I only have an issue with it because it really isn't compatible with MB2's playstyle for the majority of things in the game, every other form of gunner has to engage in prediction and consistent tracking, while all snipers can simply aim at their target at close range for a huge amount of damage or an instant kill. Long range, perfectly fine as long as it's a headshot, 1HK bodyshots sit badly with me, though at least they actually have to predict you there with most forms of sniper rifles. (ignore ruptor for this one :p)
     
  15. Smee

    Smee

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    The current system is fine imo. Snipers aren't exclusively long range weapons in any game ever really, even in ARMA I was noscoping. Trying to make a gun play like reality makes games worse.

    Also, heros shouldn't be compared to other gunners because others have 2 or 3 times the number of lives. Classes with less lives should be stronger per life. For example, a Jedi with 1 life is just as powerful as a hero with 1 life
     
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  16. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    To be fair, in games like ArmA - I can spray you through the walls using anything above 5.56 if it's a wooden shack and 7.62 if it's a concrete building, in games like MB2 - a sniper has the potential to engage without possibility of retaliation because of the weapon travel time, even with travel times somewhat boosted on beta there's still a very noticeable edge for snipers even at close range and at best a gunner can only hope for a mutual hit, though the gunner will most likely die in one hit.

    As for the extra life classes - the issue isn't that the class with less lives is more powerful, it is that it is overwhelmingly powerful. If a soldier fights a hero, the only way the soldier wins is if the hero cannot land his sniper hits.
     
  17. SneakDissing

    SneakDissing

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    People can push 3 and left click with a lightsaber for kills. It's avoidable by walking.

    Snipers can click one button after aiming with incredible accuracy to hit you (unlike Jedi/Sith, they have to actually aim, not counting pull 3), and they are avoidable by choosing the right class and counter. Even if you don't want to change classes, you can still counter a sniper with tactics instead of just blindly running in. Misdirection is a huge part of countering snipers.

    I agree with this 100%
     
  18. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    Saberists have to get close to pose a threat - snipers pose a threat everywhere. There is no 'right class and counter' to deal with snipers, other than playing saberist of course. They completely shut down most forms of gunner, and that's the issue.

    As far as countering them with tactics - that's how I've been dealing with them, I main ARC so honestly I don't have much issue with dealing with snipers as I can bait sniper shots better than most classes, but playing sold or clone vs a mando with EE3 scope or a BH with ruptor is nightmarish if the player is good, there's basically no option for the gunner to do anything other than hope a saberist can distract them or outnumber them, with two players coordinating to push from both sides.

    Snipers aren't the most broken thing in MB2, but they certainly do hold far too much sway over gunner fights to the point that you are almost always better off playing a sniper than any other gunner if you can reliably hit your shots, in any situation - close or long range.
     
  19. SneakDissing

    SneakDissing

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    Honestly I had to pause myself before reading the rest of that. Saying that saberists are the only counter, and that snipers shut down gunners, is just fucking ridiculous. Yes, snipers can cleave gunners, but not easily. Gunners still have a fair chance. Snipers aren't even broken, that's the thing. If you think you can join a game and just kill a sniper, you're wrong. Snipers, as Smee said, should be just as powerful as a Jedi. Although it's not realistic, it's MB2 realistic.

    EDIT: Another thing, I've cleaved heroes with a T -21, both close combat and ranged combat. No offense, but if you state that saberists are the only thing to killing a sniper, you lack the experience. Again, don't take this with a grain of salt.
     
  20. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    It has nothing to do with realism but rather balance between gunners, a saberist is powerful because they commit to melee, they literally pose zero threat outside of near melee range, with some force powers allowing them to have influence further on.
    A sniper can engage at close or long range - and that's ignoring the other aspects of those classes like sidearms or utilities like dex wallruns with scoped m5 or jetpack ee-3.

    Gunners, most of them, do not have any chance against a sniper. Their only opening comes from the sniper's inaccuracy - there is no smoke grenade, there is no flash bang, there's no firing at them to suppress them and make them statistically less accurate rather than psychologically.

    There is no utility a soldier, clone, ET or mandalorian has that will save them from a good player with a proj/ruptor/ee3 scope/m5 scope at close or long range barring perhaps sonic grenades at close range, outside of hoping that they miss by attacking from unexpected positions, which isn't always possible. If the sniper can land their hits - the only counter-play is to pull a saberist or counter snipe.

    I have zero issues dealing with most snipers because the majority of snipers I come up against make mistakes or are bad, but there are a few who I won't name who do not fall for obvious bait, who can land their shots and who consistently shut down every move that I and most gunners they fight can make, unless I choose to rely on my saberist to distract the sniper for me to then shut them down using the opening they create, but in a gunner versus gunner scenario, the sniper only loses if the sniper makes a mistake.

    If you beat a sniper at any range, it is almost certainly down to the sniper making a mistake more-so than you outplaying them by landing more hits or getting the drop on them, if the sniper can hit their shots, you've got no chance. That's just the nature of the sniper class because of the projectile speed and the damage they deal.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018

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