Snipers.

Discussion in 'Feedback & Gameplay' started by CC-1119 'Appo', May 10, 2018.

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  1. Smee

    Smee

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    Soldiers have grenades, clones have blobs, ETs have can spray the a230 and mandas can launch a rocket at them
    Seriously your entire post could be made about the manda rocket and the argument would be the same
     
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  2. SneakDissing

    SneakDissing

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    From what you've said, I'm getting the vibe that you've got some bad experiences with sniper. But, I won't make it personal. If a wookiee can land a charged godcaster bolt, he can essentially oneshot a gunner, just like sniper. However, notice that we've both agreed on the fact that it depends on their accuracy. If you are really dedicated to shitting on snipers, I would suggest that the developers limit their ranged/close-combat utilities. That's about it, though. There's nothing wrong with the actual concept or mechanics of snipers. A class that one shots if they manage to hit? That's sniper. Go to literally any other game, and it's the same principle. Also, that's assuming they get the right bodyshot. Footshots only oneshot on soldiers, or people with below 40-50hp. Hand/arm shots do around 30hp, and leg shots do a little over half hp. Chest shots are a one shot kill unless they have 101+ HP, or armor. Headshots are always a one shot kill, with the exception of wookiee, sbd, and anything that has above average health stats. But, in most occasions headshots and chestshots are the oneshot free ticket. If you hit the chest of an ARC, they'll tank it regardless of their build. If you chest shot a soldier, they'll die. Torso shot a saberist, they'll die.

    I think my only real problem I've experienced with sniper, is that if there is one on the field, you're in danger. Let's say you're on mb2_dotf, in the main corridor. If you're dueling a Jedi off to the side to distract him/her from killing your team, and there's a Hero with a sniper rifle, you're in danger to getting shot while swinging, slapping, or being knocked down. They can just stand there from a distance if no one is shooting at them and go to town. That's the only problem I have. But, that's more of a personal thing than an actual mechanics problem with snipers.

    EDIT: Regarding the mb2_dotf statement, I am trying to imply that sniper is a counter to said duel. If you're fighting a Jedi, the sniper is the counter to end that fight and win the round. As is Wookiee to a sith spam team. It's just the game's mechanics. Think about it.


    This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Appo, it's sounding like you think sniper is invincible. An entire team of Heroes or Bounty Hunters isn't even invincible.
     
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  3. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    Grenades which often times won't work at long range and, at closer ranges, will at best result in a mutual knockdown which at least gives you a chance or at worst, result in a knockdown after the sniper has fired - resulting in the death of the guy with the grenade. Blobs I'll give you, just not outside of close range - in almost every situation I can think of, you'll get blasted trying to land the blob as you peek the corner as you actually have to come around it, rather than just moving slightly as you would when baiting a shot.

    Spraying with an A280 is just as unreliable as anything else, as it exposes you to the sniper's fire at which point you have no opportunity to fight back in most cases, and mandalorian rockets will only work at closer ranges, at longer - they'll reposition for a moment before getting back into place, at which point if you haven't got a scoped weapon, you're pretty much at the mercy of their accuracy.

    Mandalorian rockets are situational however, whilst snipers work almost everywhere. In most situations, a mandalorian rocket can be rolled away from or if you've got some incredible skills on you, shot down by hitting the missile mid-flight, while the only time you will beat a sniper is if you manage to bait a shot or they miss.

    I don't disagree that there are options, but they do not work most of the time.

    Oh for sure, snipers aren't invincible - the issue is that at any point, should I choose to play ARC without a scope as I usually do, I am objectively weaker than if I chose to take an M5 scoped. Even if I chose to drop only stamina, that m5 scoped basically allows me to shut down any soldier as long as my accuracy is on point. There's quite literally nothing they can do as long as I don't miss, and their chance of missing goes up even higher as this class can wallrun while firing the scoped weapon in full auto with zero spread.

    I do agree, there are classes that can compete - wookie with charged godcaster also has a lot more room for that as they can tank the sniper hit, but classes like clone, sold, et and even mando are mostly at the mercy of proj snipers or m5 snipers, though the EE-3 scoped is particularly nasty as well. As for the locational damage, honestly - hitting the body is probably the easiest thing for a sniper, the head is even smaller so making the easiest area to hit deal pretty much the most damage outside of the harder to hit target just rubs me the wrong way, you actually have to try most times to get a leg or an arm shot.

    On the subject of DOTF though - snipers pose a threat in every single one of those doorways, if I was playing clone and trying to push them, my only hope is to bait a shot as if I try and push one of those doorways with a sniper covering the angle, a bodyshot - which makes up the vast majority of my hitbox - will see me dead in a single blow. That's an issue, I find, because it minimizes the possibility of a gunner when dealing with a sniper, and this aspect of sniping means that playing a sniper generally tends to be a much better choice once you have the high level gunner skill-set than continuing to play gunner, after all, why slug it out in a fight where you have to predict and track your target when you can either just focus on prediction or use it at close range by hugging angles for rather easy kills.

    I mean, as a comparison right - the game this mod is directly inspired by, Counter-Strike, has incredibly deadly snipers which can shut you down if you even attempt to push them, but that game has utility options which allow you to disrupt the visibility of a sniper to either force them to reposition pre-shot or prevent them from seeing you if they do not move however - while we have similar utility concepts like sonics/frags, etc, our guns have travel time while the guns in CS do not.

    This means that if a player with an AK-47 or an M4 gets the drop on a player with an AWP, they have a real chance to engage and take them out whereas in MB2, even if you get the drop on a sniper, the only reason you will survive to win that fight is if the sniper misses as their projectile travels at least twice as fast as yours and deals far more damage even if you headshot and they bodyshot. And all that isn't even bringing in the factor of secondary weapons.

    EDIT: adjusted some wording in the comparison, makes a bit more sense.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
  4. Crusader

    Crusader

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    I wouldn't touch snipers other than toning M5 sniper damage down a bit, same with EE3. They're manageable as is.
     
  5. SneakDissing

    SneakDissing

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    Ehhh... I mean, they revamped DOTF and Lunarbase on purpose. For one, they've added a shit ton of cover which is nice. And for two, snipers have more cover. Which isn't a bad thing! I myself like to roll sniper because it's fun. It's versatile and flexible instead of just "swish swish, swoong swing, swash". As far as this argument goes, I think we've both been taking this a bit too seriously. You're right, this thread is just to discuss how to nerf/buff sniper, not argue on the subject. With that, here's my PROS and CONS regarding sniper.


    Pros
    -An assortment of different utilities

    -Fun, exciting gameplay

    -A balanced mix between ranged / melee combat, allowing you to be an effective teammate.

    -Heroes can dodge Bounter Hunter snipes, and hit them back with one, as Bounty Hunters don't have dodge.

    -Bounty Hunters have darts, allowing them to track a darted enemy through walls, as well as do Damage Over Time (DoT) with poison.

    -Great variation of weapons and grenades, Hero can select a pistol, E-11, sniper rifle, and grenades (amount depending on level). Bounty Hunter can select pistol, E-11, DLT (burst fire and scope unlocked through levels), sniper rifle, and thermal detonator.

    -Great possibilities for ARC trooper, both melee and weaponry



    Cons
    -Unfair advantages regarding utility limits

    -Poison dart does too much damage to health

    -Dodge is insanely OP right now, allowing the user to dodge all non-headshot blasts for 3 seconds

    -Heal on hero needs to be looked in to

    -Increase Mandalorian EE-3 ammo magazine per level. Given the EE-3 is used as both a sniper and automatic rifle, it seems a tad bit ridiculous that it's ammo is so unbalanced




    I am more than certain that I missed a few things. Don't be afraid to add to my list
     
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  6. Jeob

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    While I agree on many points from the initial post, I'm not certain a general change is needed against snipers as I don't see them that good. Snipers are already getting some nerfs in the beta, which unpleased some players, so throwing out more sniper nerfs won't have a nice reception right now.
    Before suggesting changes, people have to decide whether we really have an issue with snipers, and that's debatable.
    I didn't like that part of your post, you exaggerated the threat of a sniper a little. I'd argue that it's possible to avoid getting sniped at will and you're not only at the mercy of your opponents' aim. Even ruptor takes a little time to fire from the moment you release the mouse, thus he has to lead it a little to the right or left , and if you happen to change strafe direction the moment the sniper fires, you're gonna avoid the shot (but you know this too anyway). In my experience the shittiest situation is against a strong mando in close range, you're having a blaster fight -let's say you're a hero with e-11- spraying each other, then suddenly he rekts you with weapon mod change, quickscope. It's really hard to see that coming. Same can be said about M5 sniper arcs.

    Surely in public open games snipers rule almost always and can be a nightmare for even good players, but that shouldn't affect your opinion that much. In competitive matches -although I'm not experienced in that, mostly just watched videos- I see much less sniper kills, they don't seem to be as dominant as in public games. In competitive 5v5 there's class limit, so that's one of the reasons, but the other reason is that the players are better and more aware of what's going on, and the team is communicating with each other.
    (A good player who's aware of the sniper isn't easy at all to snipe even for the best snipers. I heard this from many good snipers in game, and I agree with it.)

    Overall I feel like the answer isn't clear whether snipers are really an issue. We could easily just say "git gud" to those who have problem with snipers or we can be like, yeah snipers can easily ruin your round, all they need is one shot, let's nerf them too. Nerf everything.

    So why do snipers own in public open games anyway? Since I mentioned it, I started rambling about it which ended up kinda tldr, thought about deleting it, but maybe some of you may enjoy reading it, and also it may be educational for newer players, so in the end I decided to leave it.
    In short, snipers are the best to use in public open games cause it's a chaotic mess and everyone's doing whatever they want, and in the clusterfuck there are many situations where you can without doubt land one shot on an enemy, and that one shot will deal the most impact with the highest damage weapons aka snipers. And the other reason is the map design: most maps have narrow corridors and there's usually 1 way for the enemy to come from, which can be covered by snipers easily. But check out smuggler, snipers are way less of an issue there. In fact you can see people complaining sometimes that they can't snipe on that map.
    I'm not a big fan of sniping, only sometimes I do it, but when I do, I often ended up doing scores around 40/10 even though I feel like I didn't put in any effort, and I'm clearly not the best shot with snipers out there. So I thought about it, how that's possible?
    There's 3 main reasons imo: 1: unaware people (often combined with being noob)
    2: knock downs
    3: other situations where shooting at the enemy is only possible for a small time interval

    Some explanation about the points: 1. Ambushing people from behind: sniper is the gun to use cause it's gonna likely kill with 1 hit which is very good if you take out a strong player from behind without having to fight him, with blasters it can go many ways, depending on the situation there's a good chance you won't be able to kill your prey, only wound them (any normal player will do a random movement after eating the first two bullets), or even worse he's still gonna kill you. Also let's say you just flanked 3 players, blaster is louder and you're firing many shots, even if you eliminate one of them, there's a bigger chance you alerted the other 2 guys -especially if your 1st victim fired back at you for a moment before you put him down-, with sniper it often happens that your victim's teammates don't even notice that the guy at the back got killed, which is obviously a much better situation than when the rest of the guys come at you right away.
    Or another situation where a sniper comes really handy. You're hiding at the end of a corridor, a noob clone is coming down, who's unaware of your presence. You know you will hit the 1st shot with any guns cause the victim is just running straight, it's very easy. In this case it's best to use proj for example, that 1 shot will end him. If you use let's say an e-11, you start your burst on him, the 1st, 2nd and maybe even the 3rd shot will land but the shots after that will usually miss cause even a player with slow reaction will have a reaction by then and start moving randomly left and right, which is unpredictable and then well you're in a classic mb2 gunning fight and now that he knows of your presence, it's not that easy to hit him anymore (it's true for any player), taking him out can vary between 1-5 seconds or even more as during this time the clone starts firing back, so the risk of taking some damage is very high and so you may use some cover during the fight. So the point I'm trying to make that in many situations you can take a noob out in a split second with a sniper without risk of taking damage, and with a blaster it can easily end up way more problematic (like you lost 20 hp, or 60 hp and took a lot more time to kill), of course even with a blaster it can go smoothly but that's not common, the moment they wake up after getting shot once, it becomes a lot harder to hit them, hence that 1 shot should kill them. And to illustrate the essence of killing people in less time, let's assume that there's a jedi 3-5 meters behind the noob clone. If you take too long -let's say 2 seconds- with killing the clone, the jedi enters the push range and fightning will be much more probleamatic, you'll have to walk but be careful that the noob clone won't blob you etc., it's very easy to take damage or even die against a pair of jedi+gunner in this game even if both of them are pretty noobish. So again, using the sniper and taking the clone out in 0,5 second, before he realizes what hit him is a much easier way to deal with the situation, then you just have a 1v1 situation against the jedi.
    2. Let's say usual battle is going on at main dotf, you're an ET and an enemy ET gets pushed down. You react 1st to that and start shooting with e-11, after you land 2 shots, a proj hits your target so your teammate BH took the kill. If you had sniper in that particular situation you would have collected the kill cause you reacted first. So obviously fast snipers cash in a lot of easy kills on knock downs. Other advantage of sniper is against jedi, who do quick rise (and this could actually be listed in point 3 too), with a blaster you wouldn't kill a 100 hp jedi cause there's not enough time to get in enough shots, but with a sniper, you can get the kill easily.
    3. A 16v16 or even a 12v12 can be totally cramped and you're in a situation you have a wall of 5-8 jedi, who keep blocking your fireline, and the fireline only opens up for short time intervals which is only enough to get through 1-2 shots to enemy gunners. So if you have a blaster, you just do no damage with those few shots, it takes a lot of patience to get any real progress (people just often end up tking some jedi, or getting sniped by the enemy). It's much better to have a sniper in these situations too, with the few shots you can make, you're still getting kills.
    And there are plenty other situations where you can give lethal punishes with sniper very quickly and most likely you wouldn't be able to kill with a blaster without a follow up which may not be possible in the given situation, like ARC rocketing from a far distance, a jedi duelling your teammate and you shoot him while he's swinging, some gunner doing a flying kick or rolling and you hit him at the end of the animation when he's a stationary target.

    So yeah, these are my reasons why snipers can easily end up with the most kills in your classic chaotic public open mb2 experience. Also being on a defender team always helps snipers, but it helps any class.
     
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  7. SneakDissing

    SneakDissing

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  8. Zilenan91

    Zilenan91

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    tbh if you can go 40/10 as a class while self-admittedly being not very good at it that sounds like that class is really overpowered

    Also like I said earlier, there's a way that the game can be changed in order to counter snipers, and that's by making grenades on most of the classes except Soldier cheaper. You don't have to expose yourself to toss one, and they'll be more expendable allowing just using them to flush a sniper out being more viable.
     
  9. SomeGuy

    SomeGuy Donator

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    My opinion on snipers is that they should have large accuracy debuffs when moving and for a few seconds after moving. When not moving accuracy gradually gets more precise after, for example, 4 seconds it's perfect. Walking or crouching would reduce the movement penalty and jumping or running would make it max out. No more pop snipes, purely long range support role now.
     
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  10. Langerd

    Langerd

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    I would suggest a system like in TF2 for all sniper weapons and also for classes like hero and bounty hunter - going on sniper rifle ONLY.

    Tf2 has nice mechanic - at first you deal 50dmg as normal sniper shot (but headshot deals 150) but longer you scope the damage increases to 150 on body shot. In tf2 headshot on max sniper deals 450 dmg but this is different game than mb2 and it would be too OP for a weapon to deal 450 dmg. Snipers should deal always X2 dmg on headshot + without waiting meaning that the nerf damage should only goes with the bodyhit from base 45 to 150 damage.

    So proj rifle damage - 45 wait 4-5 sec and you deal 150. With headshot like always 300dmg and insta kill on most of classes.

    The EE3which is effective and i love so much i think should deal at least 85-90dmg. I can snipe down jedi with one hit... and this is quite harsh. If there is a jedi vs sith battle and there are two sniping mandos who know what they are doing - jedi are simply dead if they will show their backs ONES. Because they cant block.

    For Proj rifle i would say - it should block you weapons like dlt20a and there should be E11 and blaster pistol only and also -
    Less.... armor. Why snipers have a great amount of health and armor? In that case i think sniper should be skillful but also class that requies patience and it should grant you with headshot - because you are doing your duty right then.

    And also one suggestion - ADD A PULSE CANNON! OuO that weapon would deal great amount of damage and it would knockback enemies like alt concussion rifle in jedi academy ( i am sorry that i write "and" a lot)
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  11. GoodOl'Ben

    GoodOl'Ben Nerd Donator Moderator Movie Battles II Team

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    150 base damage dropped to 120, chest shot now deals 156 as opposed to 195.
    100 base damage dropped to 90, chest shot now deals 117 as opposed to 130.

    Many lives would be saved. Headshots are further emphasized as the only reliable killing mechanic as they produce damages above 250, which generally kills anyone bar a few exceptions and edge cases.

    It feels to me like nothing more would be needed for now. It brings the weapons back in line. Faster bullet speeds will strip much of their current strength already.

    Question is do we want such passive play rewarded? I love the dynamic flow of our game where people can do quickscopes and similar showcases of skill. The pay-off simply needs to be less powerful than it is now so only the best of the best produce tremendous results with this playstyle.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  12. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    The ruptor is balanced by the charge up - the moment you let go, it fires. Though it is debatable whether it is actually balanced, considering you can instantly obliterate anyone at long range. Though this is heavily affected by latency, there barely is a delay - you can see as much in the occasional ruptor montage or even, at an extreme, people aimbotting with it. If your aim is on your target when you fire, it hits. You don't have to aim ahead unless you prefer to predict than track, if your tracking is on point that thing is beastly.

    As for the issue with snipers - I'd define it as that they're so uniform, an E-11 or an M5 is only really competent at fighting at close to mid range but a sniper rifle can be used at all ranges, the only thing defining its limitations is the skill of the player using it and their accuracy. Snipers really aren't that big of a deal at long range (ignore ruptor here) where they are meant to be used because of the travel time, they are able to pin down units and with prediction can directly obliterate certain units and some snipers are better at long range than others but the scoped EE3, M5 and the projectile rifle all provide some serious long range firepower while also allowing you to corner peek and basically obliterate anyone that pushes you which is something I feel just shouldn't be happening, hence my preference to the second suggestion I offered in the OP, making snipers deal accelerating damage dependent on distance which can always be tweaked to set it so that snipers do not act like shotguns with slug shells in good hands.

    As far as competitive gameplay goes - the reason why snipers are less effective is because the entire team is focused on dealing with them, so the gunners wait for a saberist to push them or they flank the sniper and then push them from two sides - this really shouldn't be the only balance factor.

    Because there's still a potential for the sniper to get those shots on target and disrupt the tactic with one good flickshot whereas any other class would have to outplay the players with careful positioning, timing and good tracking - the sniper could 'outplay' their opponents by holding a single corner and flickshotting anyone who tries to push him bar a saberist. If the teams are dead and it's just a sniper versus a gunner then that gunner is more often than not, SOL.

    I do think @GoodOl'Ben has a good idea with changing the damage values, perhaps all that's needed is dropping the damage on bodyshot slightly to make good snipers stand out more, with those who simply camp corners for quick bodyshots that either instantly kill or deal heavy damage being penalized more than those who can land shots at long range, especially headshots.

    I agree with a lot of your post - we really don't want to change snipers in such a way that you can no longer tell the difference between a skilled sniper and one who waits for their weapon to charge up with passive play, flickshots and quickscopes that result in headshots absolutely should result in heavy damage or instnat kills, though I think 156 and 117 damage on body is still too much, I'd drop that down to like 120 and 80 - 90 respectively.

    The only reason for this is because the classes that deal this damage with their sniper weapons on bodyshot also have some amazing sidearms, giving this much power to the sniper just creates a situation where they can quickscope bodyshot at close range and draw a P3 and either one shot headshot or two shot bodyshot. People who can land headshots are still rewarded with instant or near instant kills, people who land bodyshots not so much.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  13. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    I definitely want to see something like this for EE-3 and M5 snipers - I have to force myself not to use the scoped M5 as right now you can just murder people with that thing while wallrunning and jumping around like a madman with perfect accuracy.
     
  14. Starushka

    Starushka Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    [​IMG]

    The tendency to radically change everything in mb2, especially fun aspects is very disturbing.
    As @GoodOl'Ben said there is no need in such global changes. A few number tweaks do wonders.
     
  15. MaceMadunusus

    MaceMadunusus Level Designer Movie Battles II Team

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    That + ammo reduction. They have way too much ammo right now for what should be a utility weapon.

    Snipers are only fun to play as, not to be on the receiving end of. I never feel like I got outplayed by the other person unless its a close range quick scope thing. Most of the time its like "wow, of course there's a sniper hiding behind this dark ass box in this dark ass hallway".
     
  16. Blazer

    Blazer

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    I mean to be fair, if you think snipers are overpowered, then just use one...

    I mean a good way to counter sniper, is to use another sniper.

    Also, like I said, if you're dying that much from snipers where you start complaining, then rethink your strategy. Don't go out there and get yourself in a situation that would get you killed by a sniper.
     
  17. SomeGuy

    SomeGuy Donator

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    Only issue there is how would it treat flying mando snipes? Because I think those are fine how they are and shouldn't be changed. Maybe for the M5 just disable scope while doing acrobatics, I mean how do you suppose he sees through that scope while rolling around hahaha.
     
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  18. |CB|Lyrion

    |CB|Lyrion Internal Beta Team

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    What strategy lol

    Hide on a corner and let the big boys play together with their big gun? Wait and hope for your team to win the sniper trade so that you can make few steps in the corridor? Hide on a corner and wait until enemy get so bored it either leave, or charge you?

    Pretty fun.

    ... Let me grab a proj.rifle, or a sword real quick so that I get a chance to play too.

    I mean fuck lol players shouldn’t have to be forced on either class to actually play the game and have an equal chance to do something, beside hiding on corners and waiting on others to clean the house.

    Solution being...

    -What few people mentioned already.

    -Adding more cover to choke point in certain maps which would provide everyone an equal chance to push with more room to breath against proj.

    -Give teams ways to block enemy vision/fire with smoke grenade, energy wall, or somethine else.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
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  19. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    I'd only make it so you can't fire accurately mid-air if you hover, you should either have to take a less accurate shot or disable jetpack and then, while falling, you have the accuracy of a stationary target as you now have to adjust for the fall, prepare to brace and fire off the shot - a lot more skill involved considering that a mando snipe can 1-shot most classes than just hovering in the air and one-tapping people.

    I'd remove the scoped M5 tbh. I'm not sure why ARC, the mobility focused class, has a sniper rifle. Surely something like that is best left to wook with godcaster, which basically functions as a ghetto sniper rifle if you charge it anyway. It's not like the ARC has a shortage of roles outside of using the scoped M5 anyhow. Or perhaps just make the M5 scope and Dexterity above rank 1 mutually exclusive?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  20. Crusader

    Crusader

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    And here is where I would completely disagree. The M5 sniper being accurate whilst performing acrobatics is the most enjoyable element the developers have ever brought to ARC. There are plenty of wall-run tricks you can combine with the sniping function that are fun to learn and add layers of depth to the class. Not to mention learning to aim against your Y-axis whilst preforming acrobatics and sniping is a whole new world. If it is over performing (which it is, but not excessively so) look at the damage, don't restrict the total number of play-styles the ARC has available.

    I would be more inclined to give ARC a choice between: sniper, grenade launcher, or improved M5. With selecting any one of those locking out the other options. In that light, the improved M5 could receive some form of bonus besides the improved accuracy (perhaps RoF, FP damage, damage or velocity) such that three play styles can be clearly delineated: an agile sniper, rambo, and a support-orientated build.
     

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