SeV's Saber System Fix

[SeV]

Bare with me and try to understand, as I lay bare some of my thoughts on the saber system. Please listen uncritically to a player who's cared for this game and sabering ystem for over 8 years. Btw, this spawned from a reply to the PB post by Apex, but the reply turned into this...

Introduction: Skip to suggestions if you want.

I think the current PB system is good, but as stassin mentioned you can sometimes accidentally PB. Another issue I see with this system is that attacking like a fucking maniac is 90% better than focusing on defensive play because of parries. In the saberclash-systems parrying happened less frequently because of halfswing exchanges. Also, Angling ur saber when both attacking and defending, and countering with proper timing was the old way of playing and I know stassin thinks it was more random than not, and therefore bad and didn't take skill, yet I disagree. The old system was full of depth and took a great deal of skill, just as the current one does. They're just different.

So why is spamming such a viable way of playing, as opposed to focusing on PBs, correct timing and skillful countering etc?
Well, because the fucking attacks PARRY and a parry is better than a PB (ignoring perks for now).

In alot of situations, alot of the time, maybe more than 70 percent of a duel, parrying blocks more hits than PBing. Parrying can block hits at 0 bp. It completely trivializes the current PB system, because at 0 BP you can just go Yoda mode and jump around, swinging and parrying, then jump to reset and repeat. With red u can use the stagger aswell for an added 0 BP bonus defense.

In essence, my gripe is not with the current PB system, but with how it was implemented and what is missing. Tweaks, not revamps or returns to old systems. If skilled veteran players all put their heads together I'm sure we can come up with improvements that'll make the current system as much fun as the old one.



So...

This list of suggestions isn't a take it or leave it whole course, it's a buffet of suggestions to somehow spice up the current rather dull and lifeless system. (it sounds like I'm saying it's bad, but what I'm saying is that it's more boring, not worse or that it takes less skill. Why do you think people left? Because saber system wasn't fun for them anymore, but it's fun for sisi I assume...)




Here are my suggestions for a better saber system.




#1 Non-Trivial Counters:
A successful PB allows the user to Counter. That Counter will 'override' a normal swing (pass through a parry) and deal extra BP damage. Only works on the first swing after a PB.

Comment: Not extra BP by a huge amount, but enough to make countering and counter-countering a desirable tactic for skilled people as compared to mindlessly spamming combos (whether they be 2 hit combos followed by quick resets to get ACM or not... it's still mindless spam that takes little skill. I don't think it's much different from 4 hit combo spamming with yellow, it's just an evolution of the same playstyle.)

On the BP multiplier, I don't know if 1.1 swingblocked and 1.3 unswingblocked will be enough, but the main point of this is not the increased BP damage, though that is a required thing to make counters less trivial and more desirable. The real focus is on the fact that this allows people who can PB+counter to BYPASS 0 bp parry spamming retards.

(Extra note: Check my youtube videos of sisi vs sekundus and you'll see alot of retarded 0 BP jump spam. Sometimse it lasts for 30 seconds spamming at 0 bp before sisi dies to sekundus)

#2 More low bp parry fixes:
Getting hit while running and swinging without swingblock causes the user to lose his lightsaber if he is below 1/2 BP and stagger if he is above 1/2 BP.

Comment: First, the values can be adjusted down to be 1/4 disarm threshold or even lower.

Reason and history: many have suggested that a jedi/sith's movement speed be slowed at low/0 BP in the past. This would interfere with open mode gameplay in a non-trivial way. My suggestion does not harm open mode gameplay, it just makes it slightly more important to be aware of your BP in-case of an enemy jedi/sith. I mean for fucks sake, a 0 BP sith in open can take on a bunch of noob jedi by spamming parries and using red stagger and BP is supposed to be for blocking lightsaber attacks. You shouldn''t be just fine without BP against a jedi/sith... as said before it trivializes PB and the entire MB2 system, returning us to a base-like state of retarded spam. This 0 skill shit has to stop, and suggestion #1 and #2 help solve this problem. There is no good reason not to implement.

#3 Cyan Perk
Yes, the cyan parry perk has to get the fuck out of here. it encourages a retarded, 0 skill noobish playstyle that I've tried to crush with suggestions #1 and 2.

Comments: If cyan has to be removed from the game as a useless style, so be it. But cyan's parry perk opposes all that is good about the current saber system and has to go.

#4 Cyan revamp
Cyan's first swing is yellow speed, blue dmg (ish), and with each swing in the combo/chain it increases in speed and damage until it is blue speed, yellow damage at around 4 swings? Upon reset, returns to being Yellow speed, blue dmg.

New perk:
Performing an Mblock (with PB), makes the counter start at blue speed, yellow BP dmg level.

Comments: Cyan is too weak without the derpy, SHITTY parrying perk. Revamping cyan is no small matter. My first suggestion is to make cyan's first swing slower, but each subsequent swing increase in speed within the combo chain. First swing speed starts out around yellow level , with blue dmg, and as we get deeper into the swings, speed and damage increase to reverse, blue speed and yellow dmg. This happens for combos and single swings alike within a given combo-chain (You know, before the reset. So you can combo ur way up to extremely fast halfswings). This would make cyan a unique aggressive style instead of the derpy, half-assed style that it currently is.

The perk requires skill to be good, unlike the disgusting parry perk.

#5 Staff changes
Staff mblocks no longer stagger the opponent. Instead, they get an active verson of the stagger on the currently unused saberthrow button.

Active stagger: Works like the mblock stagger, has a cooldown of 8 seconds, requires a PB+button press to succeed so that it still takes timing and some skill.

Comments: The current staff stagger mechanic is simply too overpowered considering staff's def and off stats. It also slows duels to a crawl. It is simply too overpowered. Yes it takes a little bit of skill to use, but if you practice it you can perform it just as easily as you PB and thus the amount of skill needed to execute it is not in proportion to how good it is.

My suggestion is a nerf to the stagger mechanic. Even if it got removed entirely staff would still be an excellent style because it has good defense and offensive stats. Also, the 8 sec cooldown can be shown like the slap cooldown is currently.

#6 Slap/kick
This one is simple, up the cooldown from 2.5 sec to 4 seconds.

Comments/reasoning: Slap is often spammed. Making the cooldown longer does not impact duels in a negative way, as there's no saberclash facehug anymore, just regular old facehug which doesn't have much of an effect. The second reason for increasing slap cooldown is that it helps guide players towards using the PB+Counter mechanic that I mentioned above. It also helps make revamped cyan playstyle more dangerous. It reinforces proper use of slap, combats spamming it constantly.

#7 Duals changes
Duals stab no longer gives the user an ACC.
You can only parry with the first swing in a combo.
Duals stab can parry+knockback. Main defensive mechanic on duals.
Duals have slightly more BP multiplier than before to compensate for loss of combo-spammed parries as a defensive mechanic.

Comments: It's quite simple really. Duals is a spammy playstyle that can completely ignore PBs. When playing duals, you NEVER EVER focus on PBing, instead only on attacking, parrying, stabbing, gaining ACM and running away to regen BP... Very gay style of play atm.

#8 Red changes
Red loses PB BP drain perk.

New Perk: The parry bypass from PBing+Countering lasts for the entire combo instead of for only 1 swing.

In addition, Red gets a new ability. Pressing the saberthrow button makes reds first swing a halfswing, exactly like the old weaponswitch/twirl trick, but HP damage is decreased to 50 HP. (To balance in open-mode) and movement speed is slowed to 80 percent for 2 sec after pressing the button. Lasts 2 sec before expiring. Takes 0.5 sec before you can attack after you've pressed the button and activated the ability.

Cooldown 8 seconds

Comments: The old red PB perk makes it a very strong stance and without the perk it's perhaps not strong enough. The Parry bypass perk allows reds counter-combo's to be effective and is a more attack oriented perk as it bypasses parry defenses. Also, the counter combo can be slapped making it a more risky perk with less success chance. All this serves to increase the skill it takes to play with and against red while slightly nerfing the defensive power.

The new halfswing ability is needed for red to give it a more attack-based flavour. I don't care what anyone says, red should have this ability. If an 8 sec cooldown proves to be too short, then increase it to 10 seconds, Idc. With such a long cooldown it is trivial in the actual duel itself, but serves to spice things up and keep players on their toes against red, knowing that at any moment the Red user can go brutal offense. It gives red more unique flavour similar to playing against the current stagger staff. If a style has a mechanic you cannot ignore, that gives personality to that style. Red is an iconic aggressive style so why not give it this ability? It is not overpowered at all compared to the 8+ BP drain on PB perk, and if implemented with the HP dmg nerf to swings in that combo it won't make the style OP in open either, though it'll give red users an opportunity to finish off facehugging gunners that they've deflected down to low HP. Another bonus, though not a dueling bonus, still worth noting.

#9 Blue changes
Make blue spins fast so that you can utilize those combos in combat and not be afraid of spinning.

Comments: Blue is already a good, unique, fun style loved by many. Perhaps it's a tad strong but that's to be expected because of the parry shit. With my PB+Counter suggestion bypassing parries for a single swing, it should help balance things out vs spammy styles like blue. The above suggestion makes blue users able to attack in more varied ways, and I know everyone would appreciate it if spinning didn't fuck them over with blue. It helps even the slight nerf that the PB+Counter introduces to blue in a non OP or otherwise annoying or roundabout way.

Extra note: It would be cool if you could slow down blue counters just a tad, and make blue users able to counter with a w swing in a proper manner. Think of a kendo strike, that's the kind of blue counter I'd like to see more of. Make this new blue counter as prevalent about as prevalent as the yellow left swing counter.

#10 Force powers.
Force Speed becomes a neutral force power.

Jedis get Force Heal.

lvl 1 cost 4 - drains 20 fp per sec, heals 5 hp per second. User is immobile (Kneeling heal stance)
lvl 2 cost 6 - drains 10 fp per sec, heals 6 hp per sec. User is immobile (Kneeling heal stance)
lvl 3 cost 8 - drains 10 fp per sec, heals 10 per sec. User can move while healing.

Note: I'd like speed to be implemented regardless of heal. There's an argument for giving Jedis force grip. Sith can use lightning (sith Sorcery), but all force users can use grip to some extent and as Kyle said, the forcepower itself is not evil, it's how you use it. So you can put grip in both jedi and sith if my force heal suggestion is not to your liking.

Comments: Why? Speed is needed in the current dueling system to counter the retarded backslash and with jedi's being the only ones to have speed, it makes sith less versatile in dueling. Also, the many implications in open recommend speed. If sith have speed... there are so many tactical implications. They had it before, they can have it again. It's worth a try. People want it, old vets, newer players, recognized MB2 personalities. So many ppl are asking for this. So give it to them.

The specifics of force heal balancing can be changed to suit the balance. My values are just placeholder suggestions.

 

[Anakin]

is the backhit stabber will be brought back anytime soon? Or did i miss something

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Or....You've made you're arguments. They haven't convinced me. Does that shock you?

And I had to lol.
More skill? Um, yeah.....lets cut that nugget apart. We.............simplified blocking to a limited number of specific points that is the same regardless of saber style...and you think that takes more skill? You gonna have to tell me again how simplifying things makes it harder.

Unless you mean that now people randomize their combo spams to try to bypass anyone that takes the effort to pb. Oh the humanity. Random combo spams. Skillz. I'm sure you'll respond, but we elite duelists do not employ such low class tactics - too bad, when the 90 percent who aren't elite do it, spam it, breathe it and breed with it - what do you say to that? I guess because you can enjoy your little one on ones in some dark corner of the internet while the majority have to deal with the pigs rolling in the mud...


Forgive me if I don't enjoy the current system. Not because I don't understand it, but because I don't enjoy it. I guess I just dont agree with Staci's idea of what sabers should be. Alas, woe is me.

Next, Cut the American crap. You're Euro-peenis is showing and its frankly childish.
Honestly, our dueling community was dead and gone long before you people even became good at anything.
We were playing cds while you were still playing mix tapes!
But here, lets ease it to you, if it wasnt for these forums, I'd never know a single thing about any of you. While the player pool has shrunk, most of us are like two ships, passing by in the night, without ever seeing each other. What would Shakespeare have wrote if Juliet had never met Romeo?

But clearly you seem to think that yawing was some secret skill only Euros used.

FFS, what garbage. People were yaw spamming, wiggling and grinding since the beginning. If anything, playing mb was to escape the disaster that ja and jo had become. The only things that have ever changed about mb was the bp values, hitboxes and rebounding attacks, what you scrubs started labeling as counters, parries, nudges and whores. Until now of course.

Congrats, the first real and major change to a system that, though boring due to yellows monotony, is now too tedious to enjoy for long imo.

And forgoing the dueling/duel mode aspect altogether, its once again, in case you didn't read, imo garbage in open.

But, I get the impression you and Stassin are going to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as ignorant or something along those lines.
Ignorant of posts up above or how sabers work in general. Whatevs.

Better yet, everyone that doesnt like the current system should leave and quit the game because Staci has spoken it so. Have to laugh at that one.
Its clear that if you want any real changes made. Learn to code and then become God.

Feedback is irrelevant. Arguments with merit or without will be equally dismissed.

Don't like it? Don't post. Can I say that too?

 

[SeV]

^
Butthurt.

Let the hate flow through you.

 

[Anakin]

Don't give in the hatred!!! Look at what happened to me after ep3 >>

 

[Stassin]

But, I get the impression you and Stassin are going to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as ignorant or something along those lines.

Not any more than you do us.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Evidence?

I see the future.

No doubt you're next move will be to lock types of swings to those pb hitboxes as well. Actually, wouldnt it have made more sense to have done that, if you lot are so concerned about yawns and wigglesworth, to lock the corresponding swing types to what is now known as pb hitboxes> copyright owned by Chaos.

If you want to go arcade, go all the way. I've got some quarters in my pocket.

 

[Cat Lady]

Why go to such lengths to create a new way of PBing when the current one works fine/is not counter intuitive?

Well, from my - as said again, casual duelist perspective of what is interesting to play (so I won't comment on what required more skill, as I have no idea) Pb zones tied to model are as interesting as a multiplayer game for old-type mobile phone with 9 number keys (each one presenting direction, with 5 for absolute center), where you're supposed to hit correct number as soon as your opponent hit his (and vice versa). Who fail to bash on correct "directional" key on time, fails.

Sure, it can be fun for a few minutes (or about an hour), but soon you get bored and move to more interesting things. The fact that you're not interested where saber cut comes from, just to aim at correct dial key... Pardon, zone around enemy model, doesn't help to ooze atmosphere and make me feel like I'm playing Star-Wars themed saberfight, not some simplified QTE nonsense. But, I'm not a fan of Quick Time Events (at all), so I might be negatively biased

Also, this:

I can say for certain that I have PB'd swings on this build that I clearly see hit my body, but I was looking in the right quadrant so I got the block off, which just doesn't make sense to me.

/Cat Lady

Ps.
As said, I'm by no means a "competitive" duelist, so I repeat it - nothing of the above is meant to suggest that current saber system require more or less skill than anything before (or after) it. It might be, for all intents and purposes, the most skill-focused thing we had to date - which doesn't change fact that to me, personally, it is as interesting as recreational reading of phone book. Which, incidentally, is what I think of most E-Sports, nowadays

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

The word you are looking for is: Tedious.

The flow is gone. We're all chewing on under-cooked steak. God, how much more must we chew? It's tedious!
Or if you need a sexier analogy.

I like yoga pants. I love young, attractive women in yoga pants. With yoga pants you can appreciate every nuanced curve as a beauteous babe moves her body.
But now that babe has put on baggy pajama pants. The yoga pants are gone. Baby, why you gotta be that way?

No longer can we appreciate those curves, the twist of movement of those hips, the heart-shaped buttocks, all those different angles we could focus on...have turned to mush!....................Formless pajama pants.

Thats what you've done with your arcade style blocking! May your small penises wither to dust! You're boner killers!

 

[Stassin]

Tedious that's it, i totally understand the feeling, i get it as well (although i manage to actually enjoy the over-concentration which is required; not because this is my dream saber system, not because the current gameplay is anywhere close to what i intended (i never intended anything tbh, just fixing bugs and making things less random, and poof this happens to be the result), but because i tell myself ok this is how it works now, let's see what tactics and what skills allow me to reach high skill - and the learning process is fun, yep).

So yeah, it mostly comes down to 1) more appealing visuals/sounds with saber clashes (the new bodyhit sound that was introduced in middle v0.x is not as good), 2) simple spam is no longer viable, more complex spam is required, so it's tedious. Oh yeah and PB, you need to actually pay attention to what the enemy's doing, rather than simply walking back and looking down whenever you want to go on the defense; that's tedious yeah damn it.

 

[Jiube]

1) more appealing visuals/sounds with saber clashes (the new bodyhit sound that was introduced in middle v0.x is not as good)

Makes little difference to me personally, although I have to admitt, the old systems had much better visuals due to more interesting animations, and also slower swings.

2) simple spam is no longer viable, more complex spam is required, so it's tedious. Oh yeah and PB, you need to actually pay attention to what the enemy's doing, rather than simply walking back and looking down whenever you want to go on the defense; that's tedious yeah damn it.

LOL. Just LOL. Are you serious? Spam was easily counterable back in the previous versions, so it was never about spam (apart from the most recent patches, which I don't consider a good example of a dueling system). And since spam was easily counterable, the real gameplay started when you tried to counter the counter that your opponent used to counter your spam. Or in fast adoption of a different kind of counter. Often, there was no spam in duels. I remember people who used one-two hit styles, and were winning.

What i'm saying is those arguments are the reason why you think the game is less fun. Yeah that's right, you liked it better before, because it was about bashing mouse 1 left-right thoughtlessly like a monkey;

The good old systems were never about that. They were about timing, positioning and out-thinking your opponent. And why are you saying such words? Its like you never played the old systems, although I know you did and were very good back then.

I don't understand how you manage not to notice those clue aspects of dueling disappear in the current system, and therefore make no effort to bring them back!

Timing, positioning, out-thinking, that was what made the old systems interesting, deep, engaging, and very fun as a result. It was almost like chess in real time because of these aspects.

Let me elaborate a bit.

Timing. Nudges got removed long ago, and now you make halfswings that are pretty much the same speed as normal swings, more than that they trigger one more addition - hits that hit together cancel each other out, because this is how parry works now. All of this removes timing aspect completely. There is no sense to think of when would you use long combo against a short one, because the best thing your opponent can do is to try a counter and fail at it, and maybe sneak in one or two hits in the end. And only the best can reliably perfectt-block all of them, so there is no sense in using short combos, apart from slap. Here is timing aspect almost gone for you.

Positioning. Now, due to the old perfect-block being somewhat dependable on distance, positioning was always important, and it was also a tool. Gameplay mechanics encouraged good positioning, because It affected everything directly. It was pretty simple: the closer you are, the stronger is offense and the weaker is defense. But even that simple aspect was enough to affect everything! There were whole tactics based on positioning, like shadow-swinging, or any counter-based style. And this is exactly what allowed for experienced duelists to manage 2v1! Now, this aspect is simply not there. You can perfect block just as effectively both at close range and at long range, correct direction is all it takes. One less deep and complex mechanics in the system.

All of those combined forced you to concentrate on your saber and your opponent. The best strategies involved out-thinking your opponent, learning him, finding his weaknesses. I remember taking a very long time to practice my counter-attacks so that I could punish those duelists who were too stupid with their spam. This made them die often not understanding what happened. And it added the same complexity to the attacking side as well! You constantly had to think about what you are to do, when to attack, how to attack, which combo to use, and how long should this combo be. And due to any of the choices being differently effective in any other situation, you most importantly had to think about how to force your opponent into such situation. Current system is much more focused on raw mechanical skill: whether you are able to perfect block most of the attacks in the next combo, can you dodge this DFA, can you use the perk of your style effectively, can you confuse your opponent so he can't perfect block, etc... Continuing chess analogy, no more strategy left, only tactics.

In the old versions the game was about reading your opponent, finding his own comfortable playstyle, what aspects he is good at, what aspects he is bad at, and then finding ways to force him into position or rythm that he was bad at, driving him out of his comfort zone. The current dueling system is about spamming a lot and trying to bypass your opponents perfect block, while not letting him do the same to you, and if there is a DFA - run away and try stabbing him in the back while he is doing it (which is also not reliable because of enormous defence angles for any DFA, I can't imagine why would you implement them, just makes them a spammable ability, instead of situational skillshot, which dumbs eerything down).

When I initially supported the new PB changes, I was under the impression it is just a start, and you are going to continue your work on integrating those mechanics into the current duel gameplay, in that way finding paths to restore the old depth and complexity of the previous systems, but with the new perfect block mechanics.

Right now it seems like you are fine with all the changes you have done and you would want to stop. Which means, the system will not get better, which means I would prefer playing any old dueling system, RC3P3 or earlier, with all its bugs and glitches, and passthroughs, and runners as opposed to playing this one. It is much more stable, there is no denying that. But it is also much less complex, more focused on reactional skills, less focused on the thought process. Which sounds like boring to me.

 

[Stassin]

There is no need to elaborate that much. The fact that spam is so good in the current system is mostly due to removing the BP drain cooldown. Before, doing 2 swings in a chain was not rewarded, rather it was a complete waste and a bad thing to do since only the first swing would drain BP. Of course then "spam" in the sense of the current system was not good; the most effective thing (pretty much) was doing left halfswings with yellow (think of a player like SetH), so much for strategy tbh.

To answer you (tired of always saying the same thing to everyone though): bypassing parries in the current build is still possible, you simply need to use nudged swings in directions that will have a timing offset compared to your opponent's swings, then both swings won't parry and both will deal damage. Same as previous builds, but it happens less easily (you need to actually try to do it for it to happen...).

Positioning for PB ? God... surely you must have noticed that distance still matters alot in the current build. Sure it's about angle, so you can do it regardless of distance, however when very close the enemy's swings will come much faster and it will be very hard to PB, while if you are further away it will be much easier.

Strategy is gone in the current build ? No... it's just that the spamming strategy is too effective and too easy to perform compared to anything else.

So all in all there is just too much spam in the current build, at least with yellow, and that's what mostly dumbs down the system; and again it mostly comes down to the removal of the BP drain cooldown and the way parries happen so often. However, both these things are improvements as they are much more consistent than before... why would only 1 swing drain BP when 2 swings bodyhit ? That's just bad and extremely misleading. And i bet it was always unintended... so my point is, spam needs to be punished through other ways which won't be inconsistent, and ideally (and importantly) which will have visual clues about them. I dunno what though, but sev has some ideas.

 

[Cat Lady]

Going back to improving on current system foundation:

I still think that current system just doesn't give enough "bang for buck" if one doesn't swingblock a swing. The mere 1.2 AP is laughable compared to BP wasted (even if opponent isn't attacking at all), especially with slower styles - BEFORE you take other risks (being slappe,d etc) into account. 1.2 could work for blue/cyan, , 1.3 for yellow, 1.4 for purple and 1.5 for red. Otherwise, it is just a red herring functionality, that no one right in their mind will ever use (well, at least not for AP modifier).

/Cat Lady

 

[Firestrike]

In any case not everyone agrees to a single set of ideas for changing this saber system, so whatever does happen will be that which is cared for and pushed forward the most actively.

I'm confused about the process going in to implement things. Isn't it a little convenient to say no one agrees so we'll sit on our current system for a while until a majority comes out and supports an idea? Where was that stance when this new PB system got pushed through in the first place, was there a vote or an overwhelming majority of agreement? From what I understand the new PB system was unspoken of to the majority of the community and just surfaced its way into a patch.

so my point is, spam needs to be punished through other ways which won't be inconsistent, and ideally (and importantly) which will have visual clues about them. I dunno what though, but sev has some ideas.

I know you aren't directly implying that you value Sev's opinion more with this quote, but it kind of rubs off that way. In the past during internal changes to sabering, there were multiple coders working on the saber system, that would listen to everyone's input before making a change in beta. Now it seems like there is 1 coder (although he seems more saber savvy than the previous coders) who is listening to a very exclusive amount of people that all share very coinciding opinions and his own gut feeling, and dismissing disagreeing opinions. That "dark corner of the internet where 4 European duelists determine what is skill and what the saber system should look like" that Chaos was talking about earlier. This scenario is why I stepped down from beta and beta lead once I realized the majority of opinions didn't matter and the solo coders at the time were just implementing what their small inner circle of opinions decided on, and I cant help but notice it's looking rather akin here considering how the new PB system got implemented in the first place.

I know it seems personal, but it's not. I'm asking only because you're the only person coding the saber system at this point and any future changes are going to go specifically through you. Considering you've told people (paraphrased) "if you don't like it, don't play it" in this thread, I really am curious on how you decide what to implement and what to not implement.

 

[Stassin]

When there are several different opinions, nothing usually happens. Whatever idea gets implemented in the end is the one whose supporter is the most active and cares the most about getting changes done. It's nice to give opinions, but in the end someone has to go ahead and say "ok this and this is going to happen", taking responsibility for it even when many others don't like it. The way things are right now (and it has been like that for several years) ? Noone would ever bother to make changes to the saber system except for me and for DCM who retired months ago. Sorry, but i did share PB and other ideas with the whole beta team before v1.1 was released. What do you do with "hm ok sounds nice" + "i'm not sure about it but it could work" + "i don't like it, rather do this and this" feedback ? 1) do nothing (99% of the time) 2) implement, even if several ppl stated they don't like it; after all, several others said they did like it. If you're going to tell me, "then wait until an idea has been proposed that 99% of people approve", sorry but that's wishful thinking, it will never happen because people will get tired of discussing way before a large consensus is reached, and even if they didn't get tired it would take years for it to happen even in a small modding environment like this, and in the end nothing would actually happen.

I don't play mb2 anymore but i can still code simple things for it for fun, though i'm less inclined than before to take responsibility and go ahead with changes that got mixed feedback. Even now, there are multiple opinions on what to do for the saber system: "remove perks, revert almost everything to v1.0" + "older versions are 100x better, this system is **** because of this, this and this" (without suggestions on what to change) + "change this, implement this to discourage spam, and system will be good" + "system is good, almost no need to change anything". Honestly, what do i do (noone else on the current mb2 team cares about this topic at all) ? Following the idea which i personally think is best isn't too far-fetched. i.e. don't revert things, implement few simple features to discourage spam and improve visuals with blocking animations.

Considering you've told people (paraphrased) "if you don't like it, don't play it" in this thread

That was only towards hlev, because he is being a useless whiny child.

 

[hleV]

Oh, it's good to know that it was only meant for me. As in, you don't like me so I can go fuck myself, regardless if I'm right or wrong.

Now proceed with improving the system according to people who share my view. They're not me, so perhaps you'll take their opinion into consideration.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

This is a little puzzling, if you don't play anymore than why are you arguing so hard defending it?
Whose whispering in your ear, compelling you to introduce new mechanics no one knew about or really debated?
I'll drop this bomb and you guys can deal with the radioactive fallout?

From what I recall, people usually only want to work on whatever they want to work on. It's a hobby, practice, resume, whatever; point is, you made a big change and you don't even play the game actively?

Meh. Doesn't sit right. Anyone that touches the saber system should at least be active in the game.

What could be done:

Undo button.
Or, insane idea, have people choose their own blocking mechanics!

An option in the in-game menu where you can enable or disable the current Pb Arcade slots!

I wonder who would win, someone using the current pb block or the old block.
Don't know if its feasible or possible, but it'd be fun to think about.

 

[Starushka]

@Stassin let's change things we all agree with.

Special attacks. Special attacks are very spamable and most of them are overpowered. I think most of us would like to see them as skillshots.

My suggestion:​

First of all i am sorry if something like that was mentioned already in this thread.
1. Attach every special move to Slap cooldown. Give each special its own cooldown time ( depends on usefulness of special).
This way we kill 2 birds with 1 stone - spamable slap and specials. So now you have a choice , slap your opponent or trigger a special move, can't do both.
2. Add ability to perfect block a special move ( mechanic: stare directly at opponent, for example), which cuts special in mid-animation and/or negates all side effects (such as knockback or stagger).
3. Increase BP damage.

Specs:​

Notes: All given numbers just an example. Cooldown applies after animation completes.

Blue lunge: 6 sec cooldown. Stagger the opponent if hit during his non-swingblocking attack, high BP damage. Resets his combo if hit during his swingblocking attack, low BP damage. Knockback without dealing BP damage only occurs when opponent is blocking and not staring directly at you (aka not perfect blocking). Nothing happens when opponent is blocking and staring at you (aka perfect blocking).
Duals stab: 6 sec cooldown. See Blue lunge specs.
Staff butterfly/Duals thingy: 6 sec cooldown.
Staff/Duals windmill: 6 sec cooldown
YDFA: 4 sec cooldown.
RDFA: 4 sec cooldown.
CDFA: 2 sec cooldown.
Purple kata: 4 sec cooldown.

I don't think this change will affect in negative way current system. It's not necessary to use my suggestion, but something needs to be done with specials.

 

[Stassin]

@Starushka at the moment i already discussed this a little bit with sev and special moves no longer give ACM, except DFAs. Not sure if it's enough of a nerf, but it's something. I also like giving them cooldowns, not PB so much cause they'll become essentially useless then.

 

[AgentGibbs]

then both swings won't parry and both will deal damage.

Positioning for PB ? God... surely you must have noticed that distance still matters alot in the current build. Sure it's about angle, so you can do it regardless of distance, however when very close the enemy's swings will come much faster and it will be very hard to PB, while if you are further away it will be much easier.

Strategy is gone in the current build ? No... it's just that the spamming strategy is too effective and too easy to perform compared to anything else.

1. There are a couple problems with parrying imo right now. First they are too easy to accomplish by reducing the range upon which one swing parries another would be a simple fix for this. Second, both swings should not deal damage this goes back to what Jiube said about timing the duelist with better timing should achieve an interruption (and therefore benefit) instead of also being punished. And with bringing up interruptions, I think they should actually be more common than parries at the current point in this system there is no punishment for bad swing timing because you get a parry anyway and this removes a great deal of thought and skill from the system because it rewards someone for swinging anytime their opponent does.

2. Positioning is pointless now in dueling I can literally stand still and pblock just as many swings as I do while trying to keep myself in position which to me has been enough proof to show distance means nothing unless you are trying to avoid a slap.

3. Strategy is gone for 90% of dueling in this current build because the only strategy is to spam, and yes I do mix it up and do not spam for the most part because it bores me quite honestly. However when the other duelist can just start 4 swing combo after 4 swing combo i have no choice but to start parrying with just as many swings as they are using if i want to achieve any drain to their bp.

 

[Stassin]

1. There are a couple problems with parrying imo right now. First they are too easy to accomplish by reducing the range upon which one swing parries another would be a simple fix for this. Second, both swings should not deal damage this goes back to what Jiube said about timing the duelist with better timing should achieve an interruption (and therefore benefit) instead of also being punished. And with bringing up interruptions, I think they should actually be more common than parries at the current point in this system there is no punishment for bad swing timing because you get a parry anyway and this removes a great deal of thought and skill from the system because it rewards someone for swinging anytime their opponent does.

2. Positioning is pointless now in dueling I can literally stand still and pblock just as many swings as I do while trying to keep myself in position which to me has been enough proof to show distance means nothing unless you are trying to avoid a slap.

3. Strategy is gone for 90% of dueling in this current build because the only strategy is to spam, and yes I do mix it up and do not spam for the most part because it bores me quite honestly. However when the other duelist can just start 4 swing combo after 4 swing combo i have no choice but to start parrying with just as many swings as they are using if i want to achieve any drain to their bp.

1. I'm glad someone finally brought this out while explaining it correctly. Yes, in the current build the timing for parries is very large resulting in most swings not draining any BP; in v0 builds it was much smaller and both swings would deal BP alot of the time; in builds prior to v0, only 1 swing would deal BP (the one timed earliest) and interrupt the other; maybe this behaviour is the most appealing after all.

2. No. If you stand still you are a free kill for anyone who knows how to attack well because they will safely facehug you and chain fast attacks, and in this situation there is no way anyone can PB more than 50 percent swings.

3. Yes spam is far too prominent at the moment, once that is fixed strategies will be much more relevant.