Push 3 Balance

[SomeGuy]

Welcome to the topic. Please excuse the name, I didn't think too hard about it but this should probably be called

Force Push Re Balance​

Let me start of here by first saying I do not think Push is Overpowered and this is Not a Nerf Thread. But there is a problem I have with how it affects gameplay. The issue that I want addressed here is The Use of Push 3 as a player crutch and this is what I want to see removed.
Not sure what I mean by that? Let me explain then. I'm sure a lot of you have noticed that Push 3 is easy to use to knock down targets and get some nice ground kills. All the while it is also easy to stop by walking, crouching or standing still. But the real issue is that it is much easier to use Push and very forgiving in mistakes by the user.
What does this mean? Well, simply put, it means that a Pusher has to put forth less effort in an engagement as opposed to his target. And to add a little more to it, a Force User without Push level 3 has to put forth even more effort than his opponent if not the same. This is not good from a gameplay balance standpoint.
What happens from this, then? Well, most Force User class configs basically have Push 3 as a necessity rather than an option. Players become reliant on it and other great elements become unused.
But hasn't Push remained the same for many years? Yes it has, but I never noticed the problem until recently.
How did I see this issue? It actually happened to be the large influx of brand new players. Watching them progress in player ability map after map or even days. But the thing I noticed the most is that they all used Push 3.
What's wrong with them all using Push? Nothing, except for the fact that they try out other classes or force powers but fail and go back to Push 3.
Why would they go back to using Push 3 over and over? After seeing this and examining it, I saw it helped their player ability. Sure, they still weren't very good but they were substantially better than not using it.
So this is a New Player problem? No, not at all. The new players merely opened my eyes by seeing the sheer number of them doing it. I am certain everybody knows of one or a few players who exclusively play Jedi with Push 3.
How does Push help these players out so much? From what I concluded it is because Push is extremely simple and easy to use. It can even be used in a majority of situations. Not much effort has to be used to be averagely effective at the game now.

Now in my opinion this is not fair at all because all players should have to give the same amount of effort to be effective. Sure, all players are different and some are better than others or vice versa. But they all try about the same to be a positive contribution to the team. Just because someone is good or bad at playing doesn't mean they aren't trying.

So, from all this I try and figure out a way to complete this objective: Make Push Harder to Use for Bad Players but Still Retain it's Effectiveness for Good Players.

Here we go then, my idea is below. I am certainly also not saying my idea is the best one or the only option. The one directly below is an edit after reading things from this thread and mashing them together while also thinking of other gameplay elements and how they work. My very original idea, which was pointed out would actually be a nerf (which is not my plan) is at the very bottom.

Probably the most important part of the topic is that these are all suggestions, which means they are not guaranteed to be implemented and are also all subject to change. Everybody here should be striving to make the game a better experience. I implore everybody to share their suggestions, ideas, and thoughts. The key word is collaboration.

Another extremely important part of it is that we all discuss this in a constructive, mature, and polite manner. I don't want to see the thread devolve any more than it has because there are some very good ideas here. If you need an example, here are a couple.

This is how to not be constructive.
Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
Person 2: Hah, (x) is fine you just need to do (z) better.
This is how to be constructive.
Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
Person 2: I don't understand your issue with (x), you can just do (z), can you help me understand?​

So after thinking through after all the things people posted I came up with a new idea built upon some of it. Of course all not set in stone.

Push 3 changes to have a narrower knockdown area which is like a tube in front of the Jedi that is a bit around the crosshairs. Not as pinpoint as a blaster shot but they would still basically need to be aiming at them. But here's the twist, it only is like that for instant button pushes. To compensate the animation should be sped up by about a quarter of a second, reducing the time that the Jedi is vulnerable. But wait, there's more. The power can also be charged up for maybe around 2 or 3 seconds for maximum to unleash a full scale Push that knocks down all runners in the regular arc. Also I think the charged up blast should push things back with greater velocity. That would make for some fun grenade tosses. Although, the charge should not be able to be held indefinite so after maybe 2 or 3 seconds of holding automatically goes off. Now, to think of our saberless Jedi friends even more can come of this but this is just expanding on the idea so it may be too much. Jedi with no sabers using Push 3 in melee can just tap it for full effect like it is now, but if they charge it fully it can Push over everybody in it's line of fire regardless of movement status. It would probably use more FP to compensate but that could make a force only Jedi a very valuable part of a team during a standoff. The issue of wookiees and SBDs I don't know of but if they could fall from it, would be a very useful ally to have.

This can even be applied to Pull to make it affect a group after a charge, which would give that power a bigger oompf it definitely needs!

There have been a number of ideas posted in the thread, which may need to be expanded on and complimented, such as:

• All levels of Push knockdown at different ranges and spreads
• Changes in Force Point cost
• Changes in Class Point cost
• Delay before pushing
• Charge up before use
• Differing types of knockback areas

Below is my first original post.

Now before you all start saying "l2walk" what this stems from is just the amount of Jedi/Sith who only use Push 3 as their main offensive weapon. In my opinion it is way too effective and versatile for how cheap it costs in both class points and FP. When looking at Pull, not only does it cost more, but it is harder to use due to the direct aim required and shorter range. I have seen plenty of players who don't use Push 3, but in comparison to the majority that do they need to play a lot smarter and harder. Push is just too easy.

My proposed fix is very simple although I don't know if the engine allows it. Have push be the way it is for range and AOE, especially projectiles, except for the knockdown which needs to be on the crosshair. Of course the closer the range the more lax this would be and anyone pushed outside of the knockdown sweet spot would still get pushed back, to help get those guys on a cliff. Pull could even be reworked the same way so a large group of people could be nudged closer rather than fall down.

This would increase the skill required to use it and help reduce the class spam for people looking to get easy kills but still maintain the support role it can fill.

Here is a representation of what I mean.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/DarkFett/push._zpsbkp88iqp.jpg

 

[Supa]

I'm going to allow this thread to stay open so people can discuss what they'd like to see, but I don't want to see it derailed again. One more off-topic back and forth and I'll just close it.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Okay back to the thread then, I'd be okay if they made it where the aoe affect of players was lowerd, while the aoe affect of nades and rockets was the same. but I personally don't think it needs to be changed because I think push is perfectly balanced in that aspect. Yes it may be push to win, but so are other things in MBII, so nerfing push would make the jedi class overall underpowerd and woudl then require even more work to just nerf every other class in some way. most likely their mobility or damage per shot on a jedi. Which in the end would just lead to the same thing. Back to being balanced, like it is right now.

I'd be okay with that. Push is one of the many things that needs to get adjusted in this game. Right now we need to figure it out one skill at a time. Seeing as push is the most relevant right now, it should be tackled first then other skills of other classes can be looked at.

 

[Preston]

I'd be okay with that. Push is one of the many things that needs to get adjusted in this game. Right now we need to figure it out one skill at a time. Seeing as push is the most relevant right now, it should be tackled first then other skills of other classes can be looked at.

Well again, i guess it's just my opinion but I just don't really see the problem with push. Now those changes that I listed, forgot exactly who suggested them wouldn't totally make push underpowerd, and it wouldn't effect me at all or any other players who are decent. But with that in mind, I also don't think that adjusting push is necessary, because if it doesnt affect any of the more experienced players, so like why adjust it when the only people it would hurt would be noobs. you know?

 

[Supa]

I have no problem with push either, just the ways it can be abused in a one on one fight.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

I really don't think push needs a nerf. If this were done, push 3 would be very overpriced, as all 3 does over 2 is add knockdown. If the point cost of push level 3 were reduced or its FP consumption were lowered (to say 10FP), I think I might actually like this idea. But without some other change, this would be too large of a nerf to jedi/sith.

Also if this were implimented, I think keeping push 3's current AoE knockdown in melee would be a good idea. Would make risking switching to melee for a push worth considering for saberists, especially in team situations with sufficient cover.

 

[Revanic]

Oh yeah, hey, like lighting 3 having a bigger arc in melee right? 'Cause your putting more focus into it, rather than keeping your saber ready. I think that'd be cool.

 

[Preston]

I really don't think push needs a nerf. If this were done, push 3 would be very overpriced, as all 3 does over 2 is add knockdown. If the point cost of push level 3 were reduced or its FP consumption were lowered (to say 10FP), I think I might actually like this idea. But without some other change, this would be too large of a nerf to jedi/sith.

Also if this were implimented, I think keeping push 3's current AoE knockdown in melee would be a good idea. Would make risking switching to melee for a push worth considering for saberists, especially in team situations with sufficient cover.

Yeah, pretty much the way I see it, if we were to make those changes, theyd also have to lower either fp cost or point cost. Give and take

 

[AgentGibbs]

Is it really that easy to counter? If it was it wouldn't be the number 1 Jedi/Sith power.

Considering it has instant effect, quite a high range, affects multiple targets, is versatile, can be used while strafing/jumping/whatever are you sure it can be that easily countered?

Shift key

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Shift key

Somebody didn't read 2nd page.

 

[SomeGuy]

See the whole point of this thread is just about balancing the game. There is a problem with Push 3 right now how it is. It needs something to make it more even in terms of gameplay. I like Geek's idea for melee push to be the same how it is. Skilled players would not see much change in their gameplay but the ones who only play Jedi with Push 3 as their main weapon would need to adapt.

If you ever play FA maps with many Jedi like Jedi Temple or the Geonosis Arena people are always trying to get the same Jedi. The ones with Push 3. They even say it in chat, how more Jedi need Push 3. Why is that? Because the whole community almost is completely reliant on this to play a class effectively that has so many combinations and other powers and ways of playing. That's a problem.

We need variety, we need teamwork. Push needs a change.

 

[Preston]

See the whole point of this thread is just about balancing the game. There is a problem with Push 3 right now how it is. It needs something to make it more even in terms of gameplay. I like Geek's idea for melee push to be the same how it is. Skilled players would not see much change in their gameplay but the ones who only play Jedi with Push 3 as their main weapon would need to adapt.

If you ever play FA maps with many Jedi like Jedi Temple or the Geonosis Arena people are always trying to get the same Jedi. The ones with Push 3. They even say it in chat, how more Jedi need Push 3. Why is that? Because the whole community almost is completely reliant on this to play a class effectively that has so many combinations and other powers and ways of playing. That's a problem.

We need variety, we need teamwork. Push needs a change.

Well thats all an opinion, not a fact that push needs a change. Just as me saying its fine. Both opinions.

 

[andrew]

See the whole point of this thread is just about balancing the game. There is a problem with Push 3 right now how it is. It needs something to make it more even in terms of gameplay. I like Geek's idea for melee push to be the same how it is. Skilled players would not see much change in their gameplay but the ones who only play Jedi with Push 3 as their main weapon would need to adapt.

If you ever play FA maps with many Jedi like Jedi Temple or the Geonosis Arena people are always trying to get the same Jedi. The ones with Push 3. They even say it in chat, how more Jedi need Push 3. Why is that? Because the whole community almost is completely reliant on this to play a class effectively that has so many combinations and other powers and ways of playing. That's a problem.

We need variety, we need teamwork. Push needs a change.

it's a literal no-brainer that a class that is forced to become completely vulnerable and engage in melee range would do their best to rig the odds slightly in their favor. no other class is forced to open themselves up for being killed in the same way jedi do, and thats exactly why force powers are perfectly fine on them

i also feel like this topic has a lot of varied arguments that need to be made more clear. what exactly is the problem? is push too powerful in 1v1 situations? is it too powerful vs groups? is it too powerful IN groups?

anyone can tell you pull is the superior force power 1v1. missing a push costs you 20fp and a large window of complete vulnerability. the idea that you can jump to avoid getting shot during that window is silly because all jumping does is make it so you cant dodge at all, and you have to hope the gunner is too slow to reacquire you as a target in mid air.

too powerful vs groups? this is the entire basis of jedi as a support class. support, the thing that people generally complain jedi dont do enough of and want buffed at the cost of jedi being worse as an assault type. nerfs to push 3 hurt jedi substantially as a support and in any competitive environment.

too powerful in groups? i dont think i need to rehash any of the argument here.

its mind blowing to me that during a time of a large influx of new and unskilled players that people are suddenly complaining about push again. the hallmark of a new and inexperienced player always used to be "omg push op. push whore!!" and it was laughed at. never has it been easier to just cut down jedi and sith en masse using t21, a280, p3 etc. yeah, sometimes a noob jedi flails around and does a max height jump and kills you when he lands with a w swing, but thats your fault not push or jedi spam

 

[SomeGuy]

Well thats all an opinion, not a fact that push needs a change. Just as me saying its fine. Both opinions.

Well the fact here is most people pick Push 3 over any of the other things that can use. And that is because it is very easy to use. Sure an experienced gunner will kill a Pushing Jedi 1v1 sometimes, if not more than that. But they will always be caught off guard or from around corners with the one hit free kill. Even an E-11 headshot won't 1 hit kill.

Scenario: Gunner hiding behind corner watching a group of 3 soldiers coming. He jumps out and opens fire, surprising them. They take time to react to the ambush and open fire. The first target of the ambusher gets killed within 2 seconds and he is aiming at the second when their return fire kills. He got 1 kill and a damage. Now let's swap it up. A Jedi hiding around a corner sees 3 soldiers running his direction. He pops out and uses a single Push 3. All 3 soldiers fall down and the Jedi manages to slice 2 before they get up, while the third starts to open fire. The lightsaber swings and kills the last soldier while he got in a couple hits. Now we change it again, the Jedi has not gotten Push 3 and opted for Pull. He pops out and Pulls only one target making them fall. He kills the downed soldier while the other 2 open fire and cut through his defenses. He is now dead.

The difference in effect from a class setup is staggering and using a Jedi without Push 3 usually has to try a large amount harder to be successful.

The point of this thread is not to debate whether or not Push 3 needs a change. It is to discuss a possible change.

Sure there are other things that need to be changed, too. There can be separate topics for them. This is for Push. It is a problem that everybody has this as a go-to or sees it as required to be effective at Jedi. This happens in other classes, also, and those are also problems.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

See the whole point of this thread is just about balancing the game. There is a problem with Push 3 right now how it is.

If everyone agreed that push 3 was imbalanced, then there wouldn't be much need of a discussion. A lot of people think push 3 is balanced as it is right now. I'm inclined to agree. It costs 1/5th of your total FP, is easily countered by walking (or being ARC/wook/SBD/deka), and leaves you vulnerable for a decent period of time afterwards.

Skilled players would not see much change in their gameplay but the ones who only play Jedi with Push 3 as their main weapon would need to adapt.

This seems to be implying that skilled players don't frequently use push to knockdown multiple people. There's a reason either push 3 or pull 3 is generally considered a necessity. Saber vs gunner gameplay is very dependent on knockdowns because jedi have to open themselves up to being shot when they go in for a kill. Taking a swing at an opponent when they aren't knocked down is a huge gamble. Against a skilled gunner, it is often a death sentence. You can't suggest and discuss a massive nerf to a staple power without discussing the other changes that would be necessary to not ruin balance.

The point of this thread is not to debate whether or not Push 3 needs a change. It is to discuss a possible change.

Saying that a possible change is unneeded is part of a discussion about that change.

I agree that push could be changed in some way to make saber vs gun more balanced than it is now. But that change can't just be a huge nerf alone. Without other changes, it would make balance worse, not better.

 

[SomeGuy]

\This seems to be implying that skilled players don't frequently use push to knockdown multiple people. There's a reason either push 3 or pull 3 is generally considered a necessity. Saber vs gunner gameplay is very dependent on knockdowns because jedi have to open themselves up to being shot when they go in for a kill. Taking a swing at an opponent when they aren't knocked down is a huge gamble. Against a skilled gunner, it is often a death sentence. You can't suggest and discuss a massive nerf to a staple power without discussing the other changes that would be necessary to not ruin balance.

There is a huge disparity with how extremely effective it is versus how cheap it is. Even a level 3 E-11 costs 21 points and has a relatively low ammo pool while Push 3 only costs 12 and is unlimited. It is just too easy. Hardly anybody uses Pull 3 and if they do, they get slaughtered if they miss. With Push they don't miss if the target is on the screen. It wouldn't even be a massive nerf. All it would do is make them play more supportive like the class is supposed to.

It doesn't even need to be this change, but there needs to be something. Increasing class points, making it a charge up, whatever. You don't even see Jedi push that much in the movies, let alone knock down everything in front of them. It's all focused.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

I skipped 6 pages so

Alternative ideas for push 3:

1. Divide the range/cone/arc of push into 2 categories. Don't know the exact range but lets just draw a line in the middle of where it starts to where it ends.
Now separate that range so that knockdown only occurs in close range while the 2nd half would be the equivalent of push 2. So you could only knock down players close to you but the overall arc remains against rockets/nades.

2. Or....what I just said but in reverse. Knockdown occurs in the outer arc of push and push 2 knockback up close. Better yet, you could add the original idea of targeted push on knockdown...so you'd have to aim your push if the enemy player was in close range.

You could also add this to the first version(1.) so you could knockdown a single opponent long rage as long as you target him.

Thinking of the scenarios I can see it working either way.

Have the delinquent beta team test out both versions to see which is better to implement

I'm just an idea man. Don't hate me for being beautiful.

3. Cooldown in between pushes. Push spam. When a herd of jedi are coming at you 3/4ths of them push push push while the remaining start swinging their glowstix of length compensation. Adding a cooldown timer, like jp use, would make push a more measured and thoughtful power to use. But using brains is less popular than spamming a button.

4. Cause I'm sexy and I know it.

koi scum.

 

[SomeGuy]

I skipped 6 pages so

Alternative ideas for push 3:

1. Divide the range/cone/arc of push into 2 categories. Don't know the exact range but lets just draw a line in the middle of where it starts to where it ends.
Now separate that range so that knockdown only occurs in close range while the 2nd half would be the equivalent of push 2. So you could only knock down players close to you but the overall arc remains against rockets/nades.

2. Or....what I just said but in reverse. Knockdown occurs in the outer arc of push and push 2 knockback up close. Better yet, you could add the original idea of targeted push on knockdown...so you'd have to aim your push if the enemy player was in close range.

You could also add this to the first version(1.) so you could knockdown a single opponent long rage as long as you target him.

Thinking of the scenarios I can see it working either way.

Have the delinquent beta team test out both versions to see which is better to implement

I'm just an idea man. Don't hate me for being beautiful.

koi scum.

The first one is exactly what my idea is I figured aim at long range and be easier up close to prevent gunners from just bum rushing Jedi and shooting point blank. Point blank it would basically be the same as it is now, just not as far a range.

 

[andrew]

3. Cooldown in between pushes. Push spam. When a herd of jedi are coming at you 3/4ths of them push push push while the remaining start swinging their glowstix of length compensation. Adding a cooldown timer, like jp use, would make push a more measured and thoughtful power to use. But using brains is less popular than spamming a button.

this sounds fine until you remember the rest of the uses for push

 

[StarWarsGeek]

It wouldn't even be a massive nerf. All it would do is make them play more supportive like the class is supposed to.

Having push 3 knockdown only when the crosshair is on the target when it currently has a pretty huge AoE is a pretty massive nerf. It also hurts the class's support ability. Being able to knockdown multiple gunners during a firefight is a wonderful way to assist your allied gunners in getting some kills.

A smaller knockdown cone might be a better place to start than simply going straight to pull's method of crosshair knockdowns only. The cone could probably afford to still be a little smaller while still being worth the current point cost/FP cost/being open to gunfire. If the cone gets to small, IMO it would be an over-nerf without some other changes to accompany it like a lower point cost, lower FP drain, or shorter vulnerability window afterwards.

 

[SomeGuy]

Having push 3 knockdown only when the crosshair is on the target when it currently has a pretty huge AoE is a pretty massive nerf. It also hurts the class's support ability. Being able to knockdown multiple gunners during a firefight is a wonderful way to assist your allied gunners in getting some kills.

A smaller knockdown cone might be a better place to start than simply going straight to pull's method of crosshair knockdowns only. The cone could probably afford to still be a little smaller while still being worth the current point cost/FP cost/being open to gunfire. If the cone gets to small, IMO it would be an over-nerf without some other changes to accompany it like a lower point cost, lower FP drain, or shorter vulnerability window afterwards.

Okay so I made a crude image to represent what I mean.