Moviebattles II Version 1.8 Released

agentoo8 · Jun 25, 2021

See previous point re my citing of heal before you go thinking I meant heal as a direct counter to a rocket.

I'm sorry; I just find it hard to buy-in to this idea of heroes being perpetually oppressed by horrible patriarchal Mandalorians.

Duckshark · Jun 25, 2021

Not to pile up on what has already been clearly stated and experienced (considering years and years ago Superman was hunted by mando rocket squads since he was too dangerous of a hero), this argument about how Jedi are just the be-all-end-all of rocket counters increases your team's reliance on Jedi.

Jedi are the only class that can:
- use wallhacks (sense 3)
- push utility (nades, rockets)
- reliably shield other players from gunfire
- push into enemy space without instantly dying
- prevent enemy gunners from rushing up (sans force-immune deka)

By removing the reliance of gunners on Jedi to take care of every form of utility on the map and then have the awareness to also push up on Imps, the classes as a whole become more balanced. It's a team game, not a "follow the jedi" game. Call rocket clunky all you like; it's being fixed. But making teams continually reliant on Jedi is NOT the way forward. The idea that every class has a chance against every class, as long as you are sufficiently skilled, is important. If you think Jedi is the best counter to rocket, fine. But suggest ways for it to be more streamlined, instead of blindly repeating that it was fine. Nostalgia goggles don't excuse bad mechanics.

agentoo8 · Jun 25, 2021

Jedi/Sith is a staple in every team simply because of how the game works/the mechanics at play. Other classes may be more situational, and have their own niche, but to play without a Jedi/Sith is just cucking your team simply because of everything that you mentioned.

Jedi is a counter to rockets (and all other manner of projectiles).

Btw, one hero was hunted by mando 'squads'? Where was the hero's squad to help him?

Tempest · Jun 25, 2021

As someone who has historically played primarily support and hero/BH in both pub play and scrims, I'll give my 2 cents for 6v6-10v10 with skilled/top level play:
Yes, having a competent support generally solves the issues of grenades and rockets. However, this has these constraints either on their own or in any combination of the following:

You can't be outnumbered by enemy supports (pretty obvious but for general play, I'd expect 2 supports as a baseline). Pretty fair but this is a polarizing aspect of general saber v gunner stuff.
It can't be in a long hallway where an enemy sniper (especially disruptor) has priority over your snipers. If you try to push, you get killed and their support just pushes it back. This is a lot of maps so it's one of the most relevant parts.
You can't be in a large area where the mando can just fly behind you. Presumably they go to somewhere with cover so they don't get immediately shot afterward. You're now dealing with high threats from both directions and this generally means everyone has to fall back and deal with the mando because there's now the equivalent of an unchecked sniper (whether that's EE3 or dual pistols) and rocket that can wipe 1-2 (realistically I wouldn't expect more than just the hero or an ET+sold to die if people are playing smart). The counter to this is having a clone ready with blobs (hopefully they don't get sniped or have it on cd) or your own sniper to shoot them. The Mando shouldn't just be randomly flying out while not being sure they won't get gunned out of the sky anyway so it's kind of a moot point.
There can't be any enemy gunners with nades prepped behind cover. If you are ready for the nades, that means you can't push the rocket because then the nades will hit you and you'll either get sniped or lose 50% or more of your health. This got addressed to a decent degree with the changes to alt frags but is still relevant.
Darts have their own list of annoyances that I could probably write an entire section on by themselves with how they force you to not be able to help gunners but I think most know they've always been a bit dumb.

That's not a comprehensive list by any means but to say "just have a support around" is not a complete solution in itself.

joulupaska · Jun 25, 2021

Gargos said:
Oh man I can imagine this fucking up every jedi’s honed pushbot to manda rockets (mine included). This will cause a lot confusion. Maybe activating jetpack behind door and deactivating and then rocketing the jedi without jedi knowing about the extra delay could add a funny extra step to this game.
Otherwise I like that there is viable counter to suicide mandas tho.

Heavily disliking the a280 nerf, did it really need one? Jus

Agreed on the last point but it's easily solved by stacking imps.

KaniganTheMando · Jun 25, 2021

Tempest said:
As someone who has historically played primarily support and hero/BH in both pub play and scrims, I'll give my 2 cents for 6v6-10v10 with skilled/top level play:
Yes, having a competent support generally solves the issues of grenades and rockets. However, this has these constraints either on their own or in any combination of the following:

You can't be outnumbered by enemy supports (pretty obvious but for general play, I'd expect 2 supports as a baseline). Pretty fair but this is a polarizing aspect of general saber v gunner stuff.

It can't be in a long hallway where an enemy sniper (especially disruptor) has priority over your snipers. If you try to push, you get killed and their support just pushes it back. This is a lot of maps so it's one of the most relevant parts.

You can't be in a large area where the mando can just fly behind you. Presumably they go to somewhere with cover so they don't get immediately shot afterward. You're now dealing with high threats from both directions and this generally means everyone has to fall back and deal with the mando because there's now the equivalent of an unchecked sniper (whether that's EE3 or dual pistols) and rocket that can wipe 1-2 (realistically I wouldn't expect more than just the hero or an ET+sold to die if people are playing smart). The counter to this is having a clone ready with blobs (hopefully they don't get sniped or have it on cd) or your own sniper to shoot them. The Mando shouldn't just be randomly flying out while not being sure they won't get gunned out of the sky anyway so it's kind of a moot point.

There can't be any enemy gunners with nades prepped behind cover. If you are ready for the nades, that means you can't push the rocket because then the nades will hit you and you'll either get sniped or lose 50% or more of your health. This got addressed to a decent degree with the changes to alt frags but is still relevant.

Darts have their own list of annoyances that I could probably write an entire section on by themselves with how they force you to not be able to help gunners but I think most know they've always been a bit dumb.

That's not a comprehensive list by any means but to say "just have a support around" is not a complete solution in itself.

You make a lot of good points, but I feel like a lot of this can also be adjusted with map design, rather than straight nerfs/buffs. Like, Lindsey's changes to deathstar for eg. made mandalorian (plus snipers in general) much less of a threat.

MaceMadunusus · Jun 25, 2021

KaniganTheMando said:
but I feel like a lot of this can also be adjusted with map design

If you want to wait 10 years sure.

KaniganTheMando · Jun 25, 2021

MaceMadunusus said:
If you want to wait 10 years sure.

Fair. Does it really take that long though? I get why new dotf took so long, but adjusting stuff like those things above side bridge on death star shouldn't take as long or adding ladders to the falcon ship?

BTW, Is there even a map standard that mb2 should be balanced around? Cause I remember years ago when i was more active on mb2, eu players and na players would disagree on stuff and I always felt like that was partially because na players mostly played deathstar + dotf, while eu servers had more variety?

Spaghetti · Jun 26, 2021

KaniganTheMando said:
BTW, Is there even a map standard that mb2 should be balanced around? Cause I remember years ago when i was more active on mb2, eu players and na players would disagree on stuff and I always felt like that was partially because na players mostly played deathstar + dotf, while eu servers had more variety?

That's the thing. Blaming maps for general gameplay issues is a great way to sound smart and/or shift blame, but it's so overbroad and nonspecific as to be useless. What is this "reference map" that all gameplay is being measured against? I've never seen it. When you dig into specifics it usually ends up being anecdotes about times someone ran up against a bad situation where they're at some innate disadvantage, and then they come up with a hypothetical where "they would have stood a chance" if something about the map changed (larger hallways or doors, more cover, another route, etc.).

I'm not saying that some maps do not have problems (would be a strange position to take given I've helped with updating many maps to address issues). My main point is that if you're blaming all maps for some gameplay issue, maybe it's the classes that are at fault and not the maps?

Kodar · Jun 26, 2021

Generally speaking on map design, it's an issue of a rather significant number of maps boiling down to roughly 2 to 3 lanes for defense to hold. These lanes are also usually fairly small without a lot of room which puts heavy emphasis on grenade play.

Lunarbase - 2 lanes that are pretty tight. You can kinda get 3 lanes if you force through side enough, but that's not a guarantee.
Echobase - 2 lanes, one is tight, the other is pretty open, but the open one is subject to high ground advantage.
Mustafar - 2 lanes, one is tight, the other is fairly open but you're funneled through a tiny door.
Kamino - 2 lanes, extremely tight doors.
Coru Chase - 3 lanes, all extremely tight and awful to push through.
Classic Dotf Balcony - 2 lanes, both tight.
New Dotf - 2 lanes, 1 extremely tight, the other being main corr but it favors ruptor heavily.
Star Destroyer - 2 lanes, 1 tight, the other fairly open but covered by ruptors.
Theed - While this is 2 lanes (now 3 technically), this map tends to favor offense in comp play, but in open the map is nigh unplayable due to mando spam being as bad as it is.
Jedi Temple - 2 lanes, both tight.
Republic Cruiser - 3 lanes to obj, all tight with one being an easily covered elevator.
Deathstar - This one actually got improved a lot by Lindsey, and is a bit of an exception in that it has multiple approaches, even if some of them are rather easy to hold.
Corellia - Technically 6 lanes, but 2 are easily watched vents, and 2 are pretty bad doors. Throw in the slit above with a small hole that can be blown up. This one isn't the worst by any stretch, but the high ground advantage for imps still shines.
Citadel - 2 lanes until the third can be opened.
Enclave - 3 lanes, all horrific to push.

That's obviously not the full list, but I'm just saying it's a fairly consistent issue of low lane counts, and the lanes tend to be brutal for attackers.

MaceMadunusus · Jun 26, 2021

KaniganTheMando said:
Fair. Does it really take that long though? I get why new dotf took so long, but adjusting stuff like those things above side bridge on death star shouldn't take as long or adding ladders to the falcon ship?

DS took a long time took at least 6 months for a relatively small set of changes and I personally don't think that they addressed all of the issues with DS, but its good enough. None of the level designers have the free time they used to, which means even though we are faster at making things now, the overall time can take longer because of the less free time. DS is the result of Linds and spag doing quite a lot of work. A lot of it was because of just waiting for testing and feedback on things, then doing another pass, and repeat several times. Theres a lot of down time simply because you have to wait for something you made to be tested.

In a lot of cases, its almost better to redo the map from scratch as it would actually be faster, than trying to work around what is already there. Which is partially why to me that I would rather focus on new maps to fill out the roster more, rather than spending time going back over old things.

I built the large majority of CTF deathstar in 3 weeks because I could just go and build what I wanted from scratch. But an existing map has a ton of overhead, expectations of play, a certain style, etc that all need to be worked around. Which in many ways takes longer. I personally am not up to the task mentally to try and redo things anymore because it takes so much more time and planning to do anything on existing levels as well as a ton of pain. Plus, I am trying to focus on some other areas of my life for a bit, like spending time to fix my car myself, making more money instead of working on mb2 so I can build my own house, working on a potential successor to mb2.

So basically, Linds, Spag, Myself, Sno, etc really don't have the resources/time to go through everything, and we haven't really been able to do new stuff in a while and want to do new stuff instead... so were gonna do that. You will be seeing some map redos/updates in the future, but if we want to do things like CTF, expanding progressive siege, payload, etc... we cant be spending tons of time on old stuff at the same time.

There is just only so much we can do when we can't really work on this full time. And with me, I have been stretched thin trying to do new things to get new gameplay and UI stuff done. I particularly have had a hard time being efficient with my time as of late as well. I would love to redo a lot of levels, add a ton of things, but man we need a bigger more dedicated team for the shit we need to do.

Also sorry if this was a little rambly, I kept writing something, needing to go do something else, rinse and repeat.

Spaghetti · Jun 26, 2021

Kodar said:
Generally speaking on map design, it's an issue of a rather significant number of maps boiling down to roughly 2 to 3 lanes for defense to hold. These lanes are also usually fairly small without a lot of room which puts heavy emphasis on grenade play.

Lunarbase - 2 lanes that are pretty tight. You can kinda get 3 lanes if you force through side enough, but that's not a guarantee.
Echobase - 2 lanes, one is tight, the other is pretty open, but the open one is subject to high ground advantage.
Mustafar - 2 lanes, one is tight, the other is fairly open but you're funneled through a tiny door.
Kamino - 2 lanes, extremely tight doors.
Coru Chase - 3 lanes, all extremely tight and awful to push through.
Classic Dotf Balcony - 2 lanes, both tight.
New Dotf - 2 lanes, 1 extremely tight, the other being main corr but it favors ruptor heavily.
Star Destroyer - 2 lanes, 1 tight, the other fairly open but covered by ruptors.
Theed - While this is 2 lanes (now 3 technically), this map tends to favor offense in comp play, but in open the map is nigh unplayable due to mando spam being as bad as it is.
Jedi Temple - 2 lanes, both tight.
Republic Cruiser - 3 lanes to obj, all tight with one being an easily covered elevator.
Deathstar - This one actually got improved a lot by Lindsey, and is a bit of an exception in that it has multiple approaches, even if some of them are rather easy to hold.
Corellia - Technically 6 lanes, but 2 are easily watched vents, and 2 are pretty bad doors. Throw in the slit above with a small hole that can be blown up. This one isn't the worst by any stretch, but the high ground advantage for imps still shines.
Citadel - 2 lanes until the third can be opened.
Enclave - 3 lanes, all horrific to push.

That's obviously not the full list, but I'm just saying it's a fairly consistent issue of low lane counts, and the lanes tend to be brutal for attackers.

Define 'lane' in a way that isn't arbitrarily picking a point in the map for what is conventionally held. Just taking Corellia as an example, if you held security center / gen you could claim the map only had 3 lanes. It's just not as simple as boiling things down to few 'lanes' = bad map.

Every map that isn't 100% outdoors has a limited number of routes with minimal combinations that defenders can try to take advantage of. Again: If you think defense is too easy because it's too hard to attack then it's a gameplay issue with how classes are balanced, not every map that isn't outdoors.

Fang · Jun 26, 2021

I think people forget when maps are made its quick because TRIPLE-A studios got 30-40 folk or some shit (idk)

Meanwhile MB2 is borderline like what? 10 devs, even less if you count the retired tag (Though i dont count those cuz they're still active lol)

Kodar · Jun 26, 2021

Spaghetti said:
Define 'lane' in a way that isn't arbitrarily picking a point in the map for what is conventionally held. Just taking Corellia as an example, if you held security center / gen you could claim the map only had 3 lanes. It's just not as simple as boiling things down to few 'lanes' = bad map.

Every map that isn't 100% outdoors has a limited number of routes with minimal combinations that defenders can try to take advantage of. Again: If you think defense is too easy because it's too hard to attack then it's a gameplay issue with how classes are balanced, not the maps.

To clarify then, I primarily mean lanes as the avenue to approach the obj/defending team by which the defenders have set themselves up with the maximum advantage usually available. I tried clarifying a little after that to the nature of the lanes on specific maps, but I didn't go into significant detail. Hence why I said Theed is more reasonable in a comp environment despite being 2 lanes due to its shifting nature, whereas Jedi Temple has 2 lanes but it is extremely defender sided due to the lanes being extremely tight corridors easily shut down by a defending team.

Not all maps fit all pop counts naturally. Smuggler is an example of a map that really isn't that bad, but obviously it doesn't fit large numbers.
Lunarbase starts getting too chaotic once you hit the 10v10 mark and above.

Limited number of routes to attack isn't inherently an issue as that is a case with any type of game with a singular objective (although some maps avoid this with multiple objectives that can win the round, but this is rare).

It's a combination issue with multiple layers since the maps themselves setup the ability to abuse the mechanics present on classes within the game. Pulse grenades and rage wook are probably two of the best examples, especially pulse nade pre-patch.
Rebels on defense (see Jedi Temple) can pretty much dominate any of the two primary angles going to obj with wook and arc gameplay. It's not particularly difficult either due to the hilarious pulse radius, although that was tuned down. Wooks are of course still very powerful with such tight corridors that the attackers have to advance through.
Compare that to Snow Facility with Rebs on defense, and both wook and arc's importance are automatically tuned down by several orders of magnitude. Wook shifts to bowcaster, and pulses find much more difficulty due to much more open areas.

To point to an Imperial defense example, Enclave has 3 lanes, but one is an uphill corridor that is fairly narrow, another is an elevator, and the final one is a split pathway that is fairly narrow. Despite it having 3 lanes i.e. more angles of attack, it is arguably even worse to attack than Jedi Temple since one of the lanes is an elevator easily dominated by a fire grenade + sith. The uphill corridor can be watched by imps on top of the ship including mando with rocket, snipers, and dekas. The split path can be held by a team of gunners + sith comfortably since it sets up a crossfire that favors the imps since it is an uphill battle.

We've actually tried flipping spawns on certain maps as a curiosity, such as Jedi Temple. The result was roughly the same, with it arguably being even more defender sided due to fire grenades and limits on jedi allowing for a mando to just rocket the door not being contested by a jedi.

KaniganTheMando said:
Fair. Does it really take that long though? I get why new dotf took so long, but adjusting stuff like those things above side bridge on death star shouldn't take as long or adding ladders to the falcon ship?

While I would love a map overhaul, it's not a short list of maps, and the amount of time would be pretty massive. It's why I don't really push for it much.

Spaghetti · Jun 26, 2021

Kodar said:
To clarify then, I primarily mean lanes as the avenue to approach the obj/defending team by which the defenders have set themselves up with the maximum advantage usually available. I tried clarifying a little after that to the nature of the lanes on specific maps, but I didn't go into significant detail. Hence why I said Theed is more reasonable in a comp environment despite being 2 lanes due to its shifting nature, whereas Jedi Temple has 2 lanes but it is extremely defender sided due to the lanes being extremely tight corridors easily shut down by a defending team.

Not all maps fit all pop counts naturally. Smuggler is an example of a map that really isn't that bad, but obviously it doesn't fit large numbers.
Lunarbase starts getting too chaotic once you hit the 10v10 mark and above.

Limited number of routes to attack isn't inherently an issue as that is a case with any type of game with a singular objective (although some maps avoid this with multiple objectives that can win the round, but this is rare).

It's a combination issue with multiple layers since the maps themselves setup the ability to abuse the mechanics present on classes within the game. Pulse grenades and rage wook are probably two of the best examples, especially pulse nade pre-patch.
Rebels on defense (see Jedi Temple) can pretty much dominate any of the two primary angles going to obj with wook and arc gameplay. It's not particularly difficult either due to the hilarious pulse radius, although that was tuned down. Wooks are of course still very powerful with such tight corridors that the attackers have to advance through.
Compare that to Snow Facility with Rebs on defense, and both wook and arc's importance are automatically tuned down by several orders of magnitude. Wook shifts to bowcaster, and pulses find much more difficulty due to much more open areas.

To point to an Imperial defense example, Enclave has 3 lanes, but one is an uphill corridor that is fairly narrow, another is an elevator, and the final one is a split pathway that is fairly narrow. Despite it having 3 lanes i.e. more angles of attack, it is arguably even worse to attack than Jedi Temple since one of the lanes is an elevator easily dominated by a fire grenade + sith. The uphill corridor can be watched by imps on top of the ship including mando with rocket, snipers, and dekas. The split path can be held by a team of gunners + sith comfortably since it sets up a crossfire that favors the imps since it is an uphill battle.

We've actually tried flipping spawns on certain maps as a curiosity, such as Jedi Temple. The result was roughly the same, with it arguably being even more defender sided due to fire grenades and limits on jedi allowing for a mando to just rocket the door not being contested by a jedi.

Jedi Temple is a map I've had some relatively simple plans for making easier to attack (and somewhat less timewasty in public play). That said though, you're pretty much saying what I said in a long way: it's not about some arbitrary number of lanes being needed on every map, it's about total map composition in combination with classes, for whatever population size is being targeted (generally open maps are designed for up to 16-24 players).

Both Deathstar and Corellia are examples of recently updated maps that had expansions or significant alterations to address pain points and common issues, and despite some vocal minority, I think the changes have been almost universally received well. What's left of the mappers on the team would love to give every map a pass like that if we had the time, energy, and morale to do so, but we don't as Mace explained. Regardless of that, I still do not view most official maps as 'trash' (not what you said, but I've seen it often echo'd) or even significantly bad gameplay wise.

Chaos the Chaotic · Jun 26, 2021

I believe shooting a mando in the back whose carrying a loaded rocket should blow him up. And his body parts should act as shrapnel.
I believe mandos should be able to wallgrab.
I believe mandos should be able to grapple while flying so you can snatch other players into the air and then drop them unto the earth.
I believe female mandos need bikini armor for hot maps. Not Hoth maps.
I believe!!

Ok, maybe Hoth maps as well. Snow bunnies!!

Kodar · Jun 26, 2021

Spaghetti said:
Jedi Temple is a map I've had some relatively simple plans for making easier to attack (and somewhat less timewasty in public play). That said though, you're pretty much saying what I said in a long way: it's not about some arbitrary number of lanes being needed on every map, it's about total map composition in combination with classes, for whatever population size is being targeted (generally open maps are designed for up to 16-24 players).

Both Deathstar and Corellia are examples of recently updated maps that had expansions or significant alterations to address pain points and common issues, and despite some vocal minority, I think the changes have been almost universally received well. What's left of the mappers on the team would love to give every map a pass like that if we had the time, energy, and morale to do so, but we don't as Mace explained. Regardless of that, I still do not view most official maps as 'trash' (not what you said, but I've seen it often echo'd) or even significantly bad gameplay wise.

We're pretty much on the same page. I think I worded it a little poorly so some meaning got lost.

I suppose the tldr is: Most maps have a meta that favors defense. Unfortunately, the meta is usually quite strong. It's not a complete corellation to lane count, as the meta is affected by numbers and classes brought to the table. Not all lanes are created equal either. In open, class setups vary wildly while scrims have rule sets. Like you said, it's a case where there is so much to do that it becomes a sheer time issue, hence why a chunk of us don't really push the issue just because it's more on the impractical side of things due to time allotment.

Chaos the Chaotic · Jun 26, 2021

Lol, what a load of bullshit.

Duckshark · Jun 26, 2021

Chaos the Chaotic said:
Lol, what a load of bullshit.

Regardless, narrow map design (few lanes/angles for attackers to gain map control where defenders typically hold) is something that can be mitigated with enough utility that focuses on taking map control and creating space for one's team. Defense is typically played around narrow chokes, thin angles, and crossfires that make pushing into enemy space dangerous at best and suicidal at worst. When attackers are given tools to clear utility/map space (e.g. putting out fire nades in thin hallways to allow you to push in/retreat, using sonic nades to disable enemies, using ion blobs to prevent counter pushing and give you free rockets/nades, rage wookiee + sticky pulse grenade to be a mobile knockdown and allow the rest of rebs to push up), the lack of 13 trillion lanes on a map is felt marginally less, and that's what we can focus on for development.

qwerty · Jun 26, 2021

Spaghetti said:
That's the thing. Blaming maps for general gameplay issues is a great way to sound smart and/or shift blame, but it's so overbroad and nonspecific as to be useless. What is this "reference map" that all gameplay is being measured against? I've never seen it. When you dig into specifics it usually ends up being anecdotes about times someone ran up against a bad situation where they're at some innate disadvantage, and then they come up with a hypothetical where "they would have stood a chance" if something about the map changed (larger hallways or doors, more cover, another route, etc.).

Weapon	Blocking (before)	Blocking (after)	Running (before)	Running (after)
EE3 Primary	6-14	6-12	9-15	8-13
Clone Rifle 1 & 2 (now split from 3)	4-6	4-8	5-7	6-9
T21 Primary	17-22	14-18	23-32	18-26
SBD	4-7	5-8	5-8	6-9
Deka	6-9	6-8	10-13	8-10

Moviebattles II Version 1.8 Released

agentoo8

Duckshark

agentoo8

Tempest

Gameplay Design

joulupaska

KaniganTheMando

MaceMadunusus

Level Designer

KaniganTheMando

Spaghetti

Ghost

Kodar

MaceMadunusus

Level Designer

Spaghetti

Ghost

Fang

Kodar

Spaghetti

Ghost

Chaos the Chaotic

Nerd

Kodar

Chaos the Chaotic

Nerd

Duckshark

qwerty