Moviebattles II Version 1.8 Released

A$APRocky · Jun 24, 2021

Liniyka_xddd said:
See you fellas on {DN} Relax & chill.

Victin Halcyon · Jun 24, 2021

I like that the thread went from reviling or championing it to everyone universally trying to claim the credit.

Duckshark · Jun 24, 2021

Victin Halcyon said:
I like that the thread went from reviling or championing it to everyone universally trying to claim the credit.

Shhhh, I'm a master manipulator. This was my secret plan to make everyone love the patch, even dedicated mando mains....

.... not quite

.

Still, most ideas for stuff are recycled 1000 times before even being made into a workable state. Claiming credit for an idea tends not to work when it's been suggested separately more times than I can remember.

agentoo8 · Jun 25, 2021

Kodar said:
The part you fail to understand is that situational awareness does not prevent old mando rocket from getting shoved up your ass at mach 5.

You can be plenty aware of where the mando is and unable to do virtually anything about it. It's a pure checkmate key if you know what you're doing. I play mando as well as everything else. This idea that it was anything short of a pure win button with virtually no counterplay is laughable.

It was a one-win button in the right circumstances, just as a carefully-positioned sniper could instagib an unsuspecting sold/et before they've realised where the sniper is, a force whore super pushing from behind the corner, a TD in an elevator, a wook with full rage (will net you a lot more kills than a rocket vs 1 rebel but I digress). Again, see previous point re looking at things through a 1v1 lens when factoring in the abundance of equally-instagib things that still exist in this game, and that almost nobody has complained about.

Use teammates. Position yourself better. Mock me if you want, 'Preston', but there exists in this game a plethora of countermeasures and team synergies that are afforded to players - if only they would choose to make use of them.

Concerning your question on forward thinking, and how to make it feel better: I mean, that's predicated on thinking that it didn't feel good in the first place - which I don't agree with.

"when multiple mandos could just consecutively spam charged westars, wrist laser, and rocket into groups of gunners 3x the size and win with little to no skill and effort involved, the nerf was necessary since it felt terrible to go up against a decent mando with rocket as a gunner." - that's a lovely bit of anecdote if I ever did see one. I mean....Jedi? Force Push? T-team...team game....?!! See aforementioned points re the importance of balance being conducted while assuming competent play/proper synergies.

Preston · Jun 25, 2021

agentoo8 said:
It was a one-win button in the right circumstances, just as a carefully-positioned sniper could instagib an unsuspecting sold/et before they've realised where the sniper is, a force whore super pushing from behind the corner, a TD in an elevator, a wook with full rage (will net you a lot more kills than a rocket vs 1 rebel but I digress). Again, see previous point re looking at things through a 1v1 lens when factoring in the abundance of equally-instagib things that still exist in this game, and that almost nobody has complained about.

Use teammates. Position yourself better. Mock me if you want, 'Preston', but there exists in this game a plethora of countermeasures and team synergies that are afforded to players - if only they would choose to make use of them.

Concerning your question on forward thinking, and how to make it feel better: I mean, that's predicated on thinking that it didn't feel good in the first place - which I don't agree with.

"when multiple mandos could just consecutively spam charged westars, wrist laser, and rocket into groups of gunners 3x the size and win with little to no skill and effort involved, the nerf was necessary since it felt terrible to go up against a decent mando with rocket as a gunner." - that's a lovely bit of anecdote if I ever did see one. I mean....Jedi? Force Push? T-team...team game....?!! See aforementioned points re the importance of balance being conducted while assuming competent play/proper synergies.

Was stating a fact. The only way to avoid getting 1 tapped by a rocket last patch as a gunner without blobs was to hold a sec nade at all times around a corner OR have a jedi with you at all times of the game around every single corner. If you think you can out maneuver a mando rocket from 10 feet away then the Mando firing that rocket simply was awful or got very unlucky or vice versa. The only counter measure was to have a jedi, have a sec nade always primed (as you can't switch to a nade and right click within the 800ms in most cases especially if they're past punching distance.) Or hope and pray that the Mando was complete garbage or very unlucky and somehow missed an AOE 100% sucess win button.

Use teammates? I'll use teammates to try and block the rocket that will instantly obliterate them, sure. Unless you're talking about a jedi, which again is insane. To think a gunner should always have a jedi tethered to their ankle is absurd. This is a team game, yes. But for most maps there's several points where you can push into as a rebel. If a rebel must always play with a jedi right next to them then this game is flawed.

Use better positioning? What, you mean just assume there's a mando around every corner in the game and just decide "nah" there might be a mando around THAT corner that is invisible unless you have a jedi with wall hacks with you, so ill go around the backwards where there could be more mandos. Rinse and repeat.

If you mean use better positioning by juking the mando rocket at point blank range, then again it goes back to the mando either being simply awful at the game or very unlucky. I make fun of gunners who miss point blank sec nades, if you miss a point blank rocket then there's an issue there.

Trying to compare a mando rocket to something like a sniper, which does have its own issue sure, is again absurd. A sniper for one atleast requires aim, unlike An AOE instant kill rocket. A gunner can use 3rd person to obviously peek corner, they can't do thay against a mando who can just hop out and mod hop press their win button to delete you in a half second.
Also ETs have dodge, where if they're smart they'll use it whwn they think there's a ruptor nearby, you can't simply press a button and dodge a win button.

A forcewhore supervising behind a corner? If you're talking about repulse then its obviously super easy to counter, you hear the sound similar to mando rocket, and instead of just losing like with a mando rocket. You do this crazy thing called walk and nothing happens to you. Crazy gunners actually have a counter against an AOE instant kill..? Bad game design obviously! /s

If you're talking about actual super push, then sure thats annoying but the jedi for one takes a huge risk, if they miss the super push they lose over half their fp. And are open with melee out against atleast 1 gunner who should just delete them easily. If there's more than 1 gunner then good luck. And again, want to know an a tual counter for super push...? The gunner can walk when they think there's a chance there's a sith there. Just like a jedi does for regular camping sith with push or pull. They have this super cool counter that let's you not get pushed. Sadly mando rockets don't have a counter that is the equivalent of pressing a single button when approaching a corner thay may have a sith. Again they just die. 100% of the time unless the mando is bad.

A TD in a elevator? Dang you're right that doesn't have much counter. Almost like if a mando rockets people in a elevator level of no counter.. almost. Except atleast with the TD there's some form of chance since it takes more than .8 seconds to prime, throw and then explode. Not to mention to audible announcement thay a td is throwing. So yes I agree that TDs in elevators are too strong, but atleast they're not as awful as Mando Rockets in something like an elevator.

A wook with full rage? That might be the worst example yet. Trying to say a rage wook is a instant win button such as a rocket? Lol. Rage wook is very strong, maybe even too strong. But atleast a rage wook can't instantly kill you in 1 shot from any distance away, doesn't have an advantage of just hiding behind a corner such as mando rocket and can actually.. get killed?
Assuming you see a rage wookiee, many guns in this game can delete a rage wookiee if you aim for the head
(that almost never will be at full health mind you). Shoot a handful of p3, burst a couple dlts in its face, T21 it in its face shots to a rage wook and see how it turns out for the already weak wookiee. Shoot the wookiee in its face with this games previous absurd 3.0x headshot multiplier, and now slightly less absurd 2.5x one while its is initiating rage where it can't move. Or if you're lucky you can out maneuver the rage wook for the time needed till its out if its rage meter and in a much much weaker, and slower state. If you're a sith jump away, a mando fly away, a deka roll away. If you're a rebel against a mando.. I guess a jedi can survive atleast!! WoWhoops!

Rage wook is very strong yes. But for one it needs to atleast get a kill to even use rage most of the time. Its in a incredibly weak state after using rage. It doesn't have an AOE instant kill button. A rage wook has to get out of position the entire time its getting its kills, while everyone in its vicinity loads onto its head with lasers. A mando has none of these weaknesses. Unless you think hoping out of a corner for 800ms is equal to a rage wookiee getting out of position for the entirety of the time it wants any kill.

Rage wookiee wasn't anywhere near of big of a problem as a 15 point win button that mando rocket always has been, and even if it was. Its been nerfed thankfully just like mando rocket. Which for some reason no wook main is complaining about.

And what nobody seems to talk about for some reason, is that unlike the above examples, when a mando is vulnerable after missing their point blank win button lol, is that they can simply roll and fly away. No punishment for throwing the hardest thing to mess up in the game, except a couple shots to their back as they fly away to safety. Inb4 you should of had a jedi tied to you argument.

Trying to compare a Rocket to any of the above is laughable excluding the one circumstance on only specific maps, the TD elevator. Which some maps even allow players to get out of the elevator simply by walking backwards such as enclave.

Perhaps this line of thinking comes from thinking this game should be balanced around 6v6? In which case it makes more sense thay the jedi would always stay with his small team of 5?
Though thats obviously not a realistic thing to balance around because this game generally has way more than a 6v6.

Before the argument comes up again that, "well then don't balance around 1v1!"

"there exists in this game a plethora of countermeasures and team synergies that are afforded to players - if only they would choose to make use of them."

Just don't die 4head

- instantly dies to a rocket even with 4 other gunners next to you.

Sure

agentoo8 · Jun 25, 2021

It isn't insane to think that you should have a Jedi with you to push projectiles, grenades and rockets, lol. Jedi is the ultimate support class, and that is its main role; people opting to play without them is their prerogative.

Rage wookiee in the right hands is 10x more lethal than a mando rocket that can be LOS'd/avoided/pushed.

Let's remove the TD-in-elevator example: how about throwing a TD in DOTF Main cor vs a team comprising of no Jedi (because apparently that's what we're citing for these discussions) =O Equally no time to react, may work once or twice until good players figure it out.

I'm not suggesting that you should have a grenade equipped at all times, but good players will know a) who they're up against, b) where they are likely to attempt their one-hit wonder routine, c) alternative routes they can take to securing the objective.

A mando can roll away after using a rocket, you're absolutely right....and a Jedi can push them, a clone can blob them, they can get naded - countermeasures exist! He doesn't always have to get away

Honestly, in the 15/16+ years' playing this game, this is the sole instance I've ever seen rocket put in the spotlight as something deemed OP.

" instantly dies to a rocket even with 4 other gunners next to you" - stop getting caught by a predictable routine, and make friends with a Jedi in this team-oriented game?????

sentrysteve · Jun 25, 2021

I'm really shocked to see so much discussion around the mando rocket / suicide rocket. When I played frequently I mostly played mando. I'd like to think I played it fairly well and the only time I'd consistently try to use the rocket in that manner is when going against a skilled player with dodge. In my mind, the rocket is the proper tool to counter a skilled gunner who also has dodge. Every other situation, who really cares? I feel like there are so many more options to deal with those other scenarios. The triple nerf may be slightly too much, time will tell, but if players were relying on it as a crutch then the nerf sounds good to me.

Can someone clarify the wookie changes? Specifically, what does "Fix: Strength 3 Wookiee interactions with pulse work as intended." mean? Was it intended for them to stagger/not stagger/something else?

Kodar · Jun 25, 2021

agentoo8 said:
It was a one-win button in the right circumstances, just as a carefully-positioned sniper could instagib an unsuspecting sold/et before they've realised where the sniper is, a force whore super pushing from behind the corner, a TD in an elevator, a wook with full rage (will net you a lot more kills than a rocket vs 1 rebel but I digress). Again, see previous point re looking at things through a 1v1 lens when factoring in the abundance of equally-instagib things that still exist in this game, and that almost nobody has complained about.

Use teammates. Position yourself better. Mock me if you want, 'Preston', but there exists in this game a plethora of countermeasures and team synergies that are afforded to players - if only they would choose to make use of them.

Concerning your question on forward thinking, and how to make it feel better: I mean, that's predicated on thinking that it didn't feel good in the first place - which I don't agree with.

"when multiple mandos could just consecutively spam charged westars, wrist laser, and rocket into groups of gunners 3x the size and win with little to no skill and effort involved, the nerf was necessary since it felt terrible to go up against a decent mando with rocket as a gunner." - that's a lovely bit of anecdote if I ever did see one. I mean....Jedi? Force Push? T-team...team game....?!! See aforementioned points re the importance of balance being conducted while assuming competent play/proper synergies.

You keep saying team game as if we are not pushing for balance around a team game lol

Mando rocket is absolutely in a team game. A team game where it can instantly delete multiple rebel gunners simultaneously. I agree.

The mando also has a team of its own.
I repeat, I consistently see people defending the rocket with this mentality that the mando has 0 help.

Have you just never seen a mando supported by sith, bhs, dekas, etc.?
Is this just a foreign concept?
Are we all playing a different game or something?

I'm used to playing with competent, good players on both sides of the fence. The catch here is rebels didn't have an ability with nearly no limits that could be utilized at will to shut down an enemy group. Arc rocket has a laundry list of weaknesses on its own.
It's also like people have never seen a sith counter push a rocket.
It's like people have never seen the jedi be suppressed heavily, poisoned, hounded by a sith or similar.

I'm getting flashbacks to tR deathstar regulars who get convinced of certain states of balance in the game who go to another server only to learn painful lessons since most people on the server just fuck around the entire time without a clue of what they're doing.

Before I forget, a mechanic's time in the game does not correlate to its state of balance.
Just because YOU did not see people complaining about it did not at any point imply the mechanic is balanced.
Otherwise you could slap any mechanic into a game, and as long as you pretend no one is complaining, the mechanic is balanced once a time threshold is passed.
Obviously that is asinine.

agentoo8 said:
" instantly dies to a rocket even with 4 other gunners next to you" - stop getting caught by a predictable routine, and make friends with a Jedi in this team-oriented game?????

I'm just going to go ahead and assume you don't play the game much since if you did, you would know the majority of maps boil down to a 2 or 3 lane hold which makes every rebel approach predictable, regardless of who it is.
This still doesn't solve the issue of rock paper scissors design, which is a road you do not want to go down. Otherwise we can just full send and say fuck it, give wooks 800 HP plus damage reduction vs blasters but take more damage vs sabers.
Rock paper scissors does not work out well for any parties involved.

sentrysteve said:
I'm really shocked to see so much discussion around the mando rocket / suicide rocket. When I played frequently I mostly played mando. I'd like to think I played it fairly well and the only time I'd consistently try to use the rocket in that manner is when going against a skilled player with dodge. In my mind, the rocket is the proper tool to counter a skilled gunner who also has dodge. Every other situation, who really cares? I feel like there are so many more options to deal with those other scenarios. The triple nerf may be slightly too much, time will tell, but if players were relying on it as a crutch then the nerf sounds good to me.

Can someone clarify the wookie changes? Specifically, what does "Fix: Strength 3 Wookiee interactions with pulse work as intended." mean? Was it intended for them to stagger/not stagger/something else?

Dodge got a pretty hard balancing a patch back so you don't have to crutch on cheese to kill it.

The wook change is:
In older patches, pulse nades did not affect wooks, or briefly at best, with respect to stunning them.
Hence a strategy was to stick a wook with a pulse nade as they charge into enemies.
At some point, pulses started affected wooks, and this went out the window.
That has been corrected.

agentoo8 said:
It isn't insane to think that you should have a Jedi with you to push projectiles, grenades and rockets, lol. Jedi is the ultimate support class, and that is its main role; people opting to play without them is their prerogative.

Rage wookiee in the right hands is 10x more lethal than a mando rocket that can be LOS'd/avoided/pushed.

Let's remove the TD-in-elevator example: how about throwing a TD in DOTF Main cor vs a team comprising of no Jedi (because apparently that's what we're citing for these discussions) =O Equally no time to react, may work once or twice until good players figure it out.

I'm not suggesting that you should have a grenade equipped at all times, but good players will know a) who they're up against, b) where they are likely to attempt their one-hit wonder routine, c) alternative routes they can take to securing the objective.

A mando can roll away after using a rocket, you're absolutely right....and a Jedi can push them, a clone can blob them, they can get naded - countermeasures exist! He doesn't always have to get away

Honestly, in the 15/16+ years' playing this game, this is the sole instance I've ever seen rocket put in the spotlight as something deemed OP.

" instantly dies to a rocket even with 4 other gunners next to you" - stop getting caught by a predictable routine, and make friends with a Jedi in this team-oriented game?????

Frankly, even putting a thermal det on the same danger tier as previous mando rocket is completely out of scope. For most classes, hearing the windup beep, seeing the nade, and predicting its trajectory gives you time to run away/backroll/dash/arc lunge out of the way, since it takes both time to prime and time to travel/explode. Thus, you have time to get out of the way. Mando rocket travels at a much faster speed with a similar windup, giving you almost no time to move before the rocket is already connecting and exploding, not to mention that even an indirect hit will knock you down and open you up to follow up shots from other imperials/the mando's guns.

Saying that having 2 classes that can counter a 1-button mechanic is fine does not make this a team game; this only reinforces Jedi spam and forces everyone to play in a certain way no matter their skill level. Remember that this is a game of counters, but not hard counters. Jedi hard countered rockets with push, clone soft countered rockets with blob, and otherwise every class had very limited tools to survive against a mando suicide rocket. Now suddenly every class has a chance to outplay a mando that tries to abuse its rocket, and the next time you're winning a gunfight and the mando tries to rocket to autowin the gunfight, you can actually survive with some aim. The amount of skill it takes to flinch a mando out of rocket right now is still more skill than it takes to activate rocket in the first place, but it's trending in the right direction now. Having abilities that simply kill everyone in your general vicinity is not fun. It is not fun to fight 3 mandos flying in separate directions and rocketing out of the sky, it is not fun to have a mando on the ropes only to get hit with a single button press and lose, and it is not fun to hit multiple shots on a mando with precise aim and still lose to a vague look in your direction and Class Special 1.

This is especially apparent when a Sith, poison dart BH, or Deka (though that's its own issue) supports the Mando. As soon as the mando has any sort of reliable cover, it is wildly easy to pop out, fire a rocket, fly away, and suffer no repercussions since as soon as you're done firing, you can use your primary weapons and cover your retreat. This is a team game, after all, and the mando should have to use imperial utility/nade pushbacks/flanks/smart angles to take advantage of their rocket, just like an ARC would have to in most cases.

Most people here are talking about how a team could stop a rocket in previous patches. But why doesn't the mando need to have a team to use its rocket well in the first place?

And I can confidently say Rage Wookiee can be shut down pretty hard versus a group of >2 players, even if I believe the design of rage wookiee to be relatively boring (hold W and either mouse 1, mouse 2, or press barge). Fire nades, T21 shots, newly buffed SBD, DLT bursts, and ruptor are all perfectly good tools versus a wookiee, it's just point n' click. Meanwhile rocket was point and click for the rocket user, and mostly dying for the recipients. Now it just happens to be less so.

agentoo8 · Jun 25, 2021

Kodar said:
I'm just going to go ahead and assume you don't play the game much since if you did, you would know the majority of maps boil down to a 2 or 3 lane hold which makes every rebel approach predictable, regardless of who it is.
This still doesn't solve the issue of rock paper scissors design, which is a road you do not want to go down. Otherwise we can just full send and say fuck it, give wooks 800 HP plus damage reduction vs blasters but take more damage vs sabers.
Rock paper scissors does not work out well for any parties involved.

Yes I'm very new to the game it's my first day tomorrow.

Doesn't negate from the fact that other routes exist for you to go down, some of which are going to be harder to pull of a suicidal rocket win than others.

You're absolutely right that a Mando should have a team, too, and that a Sith is able to counter-push the Jedi's push.... that's the beauty of the game! A clone could blob said Sith before he has a chance to do so! BH throws a TD into a group of rebels, a Jedi can push, a Sith can counterpush...beautiful! An ARC trooper can shoot a rocket, too! Have you ever seen a group of ARC troopers shooting rockets from the catwalk at the precise moment the door to hangar opens? It's fucking beautiful.

We can have a discussion about the mando rocket, but adding clunkiness to the cast time, as well as extra means of preventing the rocket in the first place (on top of the aforementioned counters) is rather overkill, imo. If AOE damage is the issue, then can't we scale that down while keeping damage done to the targeted area/target the same? That way the rocket keeps its potency as a ST enemy dispatcher. Same would apply to ARC rockets, of course.

You only need 1 competent Jedi to deal with projectiles/nades, for the most part (unless enemy is going full blitzkrieg mode, in which case gtfo).

Preston · Jun 25, 2021

agentoo8 said:
It isn't insane to think that you should have a Jedi with you to push projectiles, grenades and rockets, lol. Jedi is the ultimate support class, and that is its main role; people opting to play without them is their prerogative.

Rage wookiee in the right hands is 10x more lethal than a mando rocket that can be LOS'd/avoided/pushed.

Let's remove the TD-in-elevator example: how about throwing a TD in DOTF Main cor vs a team comprising of no Jedi (because apparently that's what we're citing for these discussions) =O Equally no time to react, may work once or twice until good players figure it out.

I'm not suggesting that you should have a grenade equipped at all times, but good players will know a) who they're up against, b) where they are likely to attempt their one-hit wonder routine, c) alternative routes they can take to securing the objective.

A mando can roll away after using a rocket, you're absolutely right....and a Jedi can push them, a clone can blob them, they can get naded - countermeasures exist! He doesn't always have to get away

Honestly, in the 15/16+ years' playing this game, this is the sole instance I've ever seen rocket put in the spotlight as something deemed OP.

" instantly dies to a rocket even with 4 other gunners next to you" - stop getting caught by a predictable routine, and make friends with a Jedi in this team-oriented game?????

Ignores most of the points that you yourself gave that ended up not making sense and moving the goal post for TD of all things.

Like others have said, TD isn't comparable to rocket at all. Rocket moves at an insane speed, has 800ms windup time and shoots perfectly accurate always. Since you brought up the weird DOTF main example, what any player with over 1 braincell would do against a TD thrown in main is... get out of the way? The difference is that TDs in general aren't used as a close range weapon. Rockets are. More often than long range. Which is the opposite of what makes sense in a game like this.
"Equally time to react" do you play this game other than duel mode? What?
What would be an equal time to react would be if TD had an alt fire mode than instantly blew up on contact of the ground. That would make it comparable to a mando rocket.

Again. Your rage wookiee argument is fundamentally flawed, you did mention something curious. "In the right hands". Atl east it takes someone with a brain to get x amount of kills. Unlike mando rocket where a literal day 1 player who has approximately a 10th of a brain cell can get a free kill every single round no matter what. Again ignoring half of your own now flawed points and mine, a wookiee has to GET a kill to even acquire rage. It would be as if a mando had to unlock a rocket like in Call of Duty unlocking a UAV. It's not comparable at all and it's showing how out of touch this argument even is.

If we're measuring ourselves, in my decade + of playing this game i'm unsure if I've seen a genuine vet be this out of touch on open mode like this.

"I'm not suggesting that you should have a grenade equipped at all times, but good players will know a) who they're up against, b) where they are likely to attempt their one-hit wonder routine, c) alternative routes they can take to securing the objective. "

A) what does that have to do with anything other than knowing what class is in play. A day 1 player is just as capable of getting a free instant kill at ANY corner on ANY map.

B) Again, ANY corner of the map. Hint - every map in this game is filled with dozens and dozens of corners for rebs to attempt to push up towards. I'll just be prepared to have a mando jump out and win in 800ms at every corner in the game.

C) Again, you seem to think this game should be balanced around low population as 6v6 or.. lower even? Any alternate route with a decent popped server will have more mandos with win buttons around any corner. Maybe EU isn't as popped as NA for open? I have no idea where this is coming from, that's just my only idea.

"It isn't insane to think that you should have a Jedi with you to push projectiles, grenades and rockets, lol. "

It's insane to think the Mando is playing alone. I realize that Mandos have gotten used to being able to freely play lone wolf while every other class doesn't get that benefit. But guess what. If a Mando has a sith by its side, since you're so keen on thinking every gunner should ALWAYS have a jedi next to it. The sith will just counter push the rocket. Killing the entire team in that area.

What great fun and balance!

Not to mention extra gunner support etc...

Like Kodar and others have said, its as if you think Mandos should be alone while all rebs must stay together at all times or else its their fault they died.

"A mando can roll away after using a rocket, you're absolutely right....and a Jedi can push them, a clone can blob them, they can get naded - "

And a imperial team can support them flying away, teamwork exists!

Except only rebs need teamwork I guess?

EDIT: Just because you've played for 15 years doesn't mean you know the game better than people who have played half that time, as seen by your posts. Stop gatekeeping game balance based on how long you've been playing. It means nothing.

And for the argument if lowering its AOE damage.... it's still a instant kill win button as long as you.. aim it somewhat close to a player. Lol. It could require you to get a direct hit and it would still be stupid.

agentoo8 · Jun 25, 2021

Didn't ignore the points, my dude! A BH can throw a TD into main corr to coincide at the point solds/ets will reach the corner, i.e before they've even heard the sound. Try it! See how many kills it nets you!

"Equally time to react" do you play this game other than duel mode? What?

No need for ad hominems, my friend. I've never heard of you either, so let's not go there and have a dick measuring contest

Wookie rage is fucking easy to play: by 'in the right hands', I mean someone who simply knows how to save their rage, wait for imps to get huddled up, and then go pew pew. Equally fucking braindead, if you ask me - and 10x more lethal.

A day 1 player is just as capable of getting a free instant kill at ANY corner on ANY map.

Yes, they are: the question is how often can they pull that versus opponents with more than 1 braincell. I mean honestly, how often are people succumbing to this.

See my previous comment re other avenues to explore before adding unnecessary clunkiness to it.

I realize that Mandos have gotten used to being able to freely play lone wolf while every other class doesn't get that benefit.

Not sensing a lot of impartiality from you, if I'm being honest; it's as if someone has had a bad experience against mando players and has this picture in their head that Boba Fett himself is playing the class.

I always assume balance is done from 6v6 upwards, yes. If we are looking at clusterfuck 16v16s where balance among classes is rarely ever achieved, then anything goes.

Additional:
Just because you've played for 15 years doesn't mean you know the game better than people who have played half thay time, as seen by your posts. Stop gatekeeping game balance based on how long you've been playing. It means nothing.

That wasn't the intention, but when I am being asked whether I have played the game outside of dueling (I was part of many scrims for some of MB's best clans), or if I see a complaint seemingly emerge out of nowhere, then it's worth noting just for perspective. Also, pretty arrogant of you to assume that you know the game better based on your own anecdotal examples - people's mileage varies, hence why there is discussion on this topic in the first place.

And for the argument if lowering its AOE damage.... its still a instant kill win button as long as you.. aim it somewhat close to a player. Lol. It could require you to get a direct hit and it would still be stupid.

The AOE suggestion was in response to the other person who said that its' AOE lethality is the problem. Still a better solution than added clunkiness if you ask me, and it still retains its ability to dispose of a key target, which is absolutely mandatory - to suggest otherwise is stupid.

Threepwood · Jun 25, 2021

If only there were statistics that could somehow prove the death rate to rockets is more biased than other circumstances... maybe all this arguing would be pointless.

Preston · Jun 25, 2021

agentoo8 said:
Didn't ignore the points, my dude! A BH can throw a TD into main corr to coincide at the point solds/ets will reach the corner, i.e before they've even heard the sound. Try it! See how many kills it nets you!

"Equally time to react" do you play this game other than duel mode? What?

No need for ad hominems, my friend. I've never heard of you either, so let's not go there and have a dick measuring contest

Wookie rage is fucking easy to play: by 'in the right hands', I mean someone who simply knows how to save their rage, wait for imps to get huddled up, and then go pew pew. Equally fucking braindead, if you ask me - and 10x more lethal.

A day 1 player is just as capable of getting a free instant kill at ANY corner on ANY map.

Yes, they are: the question is how often can they pull that versus opponents with more than 1 braincell. I mean honestly, how often are people succumbing to this.

See my previous comment re other avenues to explore before adding unnecessary clunkiness to it.

I realize that Mandos have gotten used to being able to freely play lone wolf while every other class doesn't get that benefit.

Not sensing a lot of impartiality from you, if I'm being honest; it's as if someone has had a bad experience against mando players and has this picture in their head that Boba Fett himself is playing the class.

I always assume balance is done from 6v6 upwards, yes. If we are looking at clusterfuck 16v16s where balance among classes is rarely ever achieved, then anything goes.

I wasn't the one that measured first my dude but okay lmao.
You did ignore the points thay I gave thay disputed every weird comparison to mando rocket except like 3 yes.

Ignored sniper, ignored half the points for wookiee, ignored map balance points, ignored lone wolf mandos other than "you are nitpicking and biased, I win bye bye"
Ignored teamplay, etc.. etc.. not to mention from other people.

Anyways, "Try it! See how many kills it nets you!" Yeah, if you fall for that then you deserve to die by that TD. You are continually digging your own grave by trying to compare rockets to a freaking TD.

it's as if someone has had a bad experience against mando players and has this picture in their head that Boba Fett himself is playing the class."

Not trying to ego, but its more of im great at the class and realize how absolutely stupid and yet true it is that mandos have a win button, and don't need a team.

agentoo8 · Jun 25, 2021

Didn't ignore your points; I've attempted to respond to every point you've made thus far, mate.

Exactly! If you die to a TD in that fashion, you deserve to die. Similarly, if you keep dying to rockets by getting easily baited, poor positioning/situational awareness, and not knowing that it's a trick up the sleeves of certain mandos....then you deserve to die! I can honestly say that the vast majority of times I've died to a rocket have been my fault/lack of awareness/rushing in like a derp.

Not trying to ego, but its more of im great at the class and realize how absolutely stupid and yet true it is that mandos have a win button, and don't need a team.

That's just pure anecdote, mate, and your experience vs randoms isn't indicative of that experienced by others. Starting to wonder whether this perceived issue is one that varies depending on what side of the pond you're on...

Preston · Jun 25, 2021

Oh my goodness I'm losing braincells.

My experience isn't vs random. But ignoring this.

You keep comparing TD to rockets. This is the most absurd thing I have read in this entire thread, and I have read far too many things. Even I don't think you acually believe they're comparable.

Balancing around 6v6 is absurd plain and simple. How about we balance on what the pop on open mode normally looks like..? Such as 9v9 above average skill level.

If I were to ignore your bad points I wouldn't have responded to any of your posts.

And this entire argument is ignoring the obvious, these mando changes won't affect decent mando players. If you get flinched its your fault for getting shot in the open.

Kodar · Jun 25, 2021

agentoo8 said:
Yes I'm very new to the game it's my first day tomorrow.

Doesn't negate from the fact that other routes exist for you to go down, some of which are going to be harder to pull of a suicidal rocket win than others.

You're absolutely right that a Mando should have a team, too, and that a Sith is able to counter-push the Jedi's push.... that's the beauty of the game! A clone could blob said Sith before he has a chance to do so! BH throws a TD into a group of rebels, a Jedi can push, a Sith can counterpush...beautiful! An ARC trooper can shoot a rocket, too! Have you ever seen a group of ARC troopers shooting rockets from the catwalk at the precise moment the door to hangar opens? It's fucking beautiful.

We can have a discussion about the mando rocket, but adding clunkiness to the cast time, as well as extra means of preventing the rocket in the first place (on top of the aforementioned counters) is rather overkill, imo. If AOE damage is the issue, then can't we scale that down while keeping damage done to the targeted area/target the same? That way the rocket keeps its potency as a ST enemy dispatcher. Same would apply to ARC rockets, of course.

You only need 1 competent Jedi to deal with projectiles/nades, for the most part (unless enemy is going full blitzkrieg mode, in which case gtfo).

Majority of maps in this game contain 2-3 lanes. Already stated that to be fair.
The overwhelming majority of those lanes have a door/doorway. It's also usually pretty small.
These days are easily held by any mando with a small amount of support. Guess what competitive play tends to boil down to?

And here's the catch with every single other mechanic you mentioned. They all have weaknesses/limitations built in.
Blobs require actual precision and only do knockdown.
TDs give significant advance warning and are a grenade i.e. no contact detonation sans deka.
Arcs can't shoot their actual guns while loading their rocket, and the rocket makes a big ass loading sound.

The pattern is here they all have weaknesses that prevent them from being auto-win buttons. Mando rocket had only the limit of 1 rocket and no doing it while the jetpack is active. That's it. You just gunned down 3 enemies and a 4th appeared so you don't feel like dealing with them? Press your button and goodnight girl. No weaknesses.

Rock paper scissors.
Hard counters vs soft counters.

This is a fundamental game design issue that you're differing with people on it appears.

We're dealing with mando rocket by trying to address in particular:
1) Mid gunfight rockets
2) Drive bys/kamikaze

Notice how any competent mando is still getting plenty of rocket kills today. It's because they're using it in a fashion that isn't just braindead. That is the goal. To remove cheese type gameplay in which there is no interaction.

As for 1 competent jedi to deal with projectiles, I'm going to assume you have never tried to push with your team on multiple soldiers, et, mando, bh, with a sith to top it off. It turns into the infamous nade battles 2 where there are more nades than you have fp.

agentoo8 said:
Didn't ignore your points; I've attempted to respond to every point you've made thus far, mate.

Exactly! If you die to a TD in that fashion, you deserve to die. Similarly, if you keep dying to rockets by getting easily baited, poor positioning/situational awareness, and not knowing that it's a trick up the sleeves of certain mandos....then you deserve to die! I can honestly say that the vast majority of times I've died to a rocket have been my fault/lack of awareness/rushing in like a derp.

Not trying to ego, but its more of im great at the class and realize how absolutely stupid and yet true it is that mandos have a win button, and don't need a team.

That's just pure anecdote, mate, and your experience vs randoms isn't indicative of that experienced by others. Starting to wonder whether this perceived issue is one that varies depending on what side of the pond you're on...

Considering every single top gunner in NA that plays rebs experiences the same thing i.e. getting headhunted by mando players because they can't do anything about it, it's not some random anecdote.
If you're a hero who is performing well, just go ahead and get ready to be headhunted by competent mandos the entire rest of the game. It's not exactly uncommon. Hell, I am targeted by it and I do it myself to others. It's a strategy that is used because they can't do fucking anything about it except for asking for a jedi to literally tag along around the clock. Mind you this is in open where teamplay is much more absent.

Mando rocket is still absurdly effective in competitive scrims where there is actual organization of teams plus dedicated supports. This is far from some isolated issue.

agentoo8 · Jun 25, 2021

Well it must be vs randoms if you're saying that you 'don't need a team' as a mando. Try being a solo hero versus any of the competent EU clans in a scrim and see how long you last.

You're looking at the TD example with too fine a brush, methinks: point behind it is that you can throw it out of earshot of enemies (so they are nonethewiser), and get the explosion to coincide just as they turn around the corner. Since we're talking about anecdotes, I thought I'd share one with you.

Good luck balancing 16v16 downwards - that's definitely feasible, and there's so many servers that are 32/32!

Might want to rein in the emotion a bit and at least try to come across a bit more impartial if you're representing the beta team, mate.

Considering every single top gunner in NA that plays rebs experiences the same thing i.e. getting headhunted by mando players because they can't do anything about it, it's not some random anecdote.

Hence my 'varies depending on what side of the pond you're on' comment.

If you're a hero who is performing well, just go ahead and get ready to be headhunted by competent mandos the entire rest of the game. It's not exactly uncommon.

Thank god you have quickthrow, dash to help with mobility, heals, etc.?

Mando rocket is still absurdly effective in competitive scrims where there is actual organization of teams plus dedicated supports. This is far from some isolated issue.

I never suggested otherwise? It of course should still be potent in organised environments; point was that there exist ways of dealing with it, outside of general positioning/situational awareness.

Kodar · Jun 25, 2021

agentoo8 said:
If you're a hero who is performing well, just go ahead and get ready to be headhunted by competent mandos the entire rest of the game. It's not exactly uncommon.

Thank god you have quickthrow, dash to help with mobility, heals, etc.?

Did you really just list heal for dealing with mando rocket, or am I taking acid?
Dash? You mean the thing where I adjust my mando rocket very slightly and the same result has now been achieved?
Quickthrow which depends on if you have explicitly quickthrow level 2 + a nade at that point + the ability to kill me in that timeframe which isn't even guaranteed + the actual ability to hit the nade before the rocket launches?

I'm actually starting to think I've been getting trolled. Damn.

agentoo8 · Jun 25, 2021

Hero has an abundance of defensive tools to help alleviate pressure. No, I did not cite heal as a means of dealing with a rocket, per se, but it's a tool nonetheless that can help you survive an after attack/if you haven't died to the rocket.

I'm actually starting to think that this change was done to facilitate to one or two players who have had a series of bad experiences against good mando players. Damn.

Preston · Jun 25, 2021

agentoo8 said:
Well it must be vs randoms if you're saying that you 'don't need a team' as a mando. Try being a solo hero versus any of the competent EU clans in a scrim and see how long you last.

You're looking at the TD example with too fine a brush, methinks: point behind it is that you can throw it out of earshot of enemies (so they are nonethewiser), and get the explosion to coincide just as they turn around the corner. Since we're talking about anecdotes, I thought I'd share one with you.

Good luck balancing 16v16 downwards - that's definitely feasible, and there's so many servers that are 32/32!

Might want to rein in the emotion a bit and at least try to come across a bit more impartial if you're representing the beta team, mate.

Considering every single top gunner in NA that plays rebs experiences the same thing i.e. getting headhunted by mando players because they can't do anything about it, it's not some random anecdote.

Hence my 'varies depending on what side of the pond you're on' comment.

If you're a hero who is performing well, just go ahead and get ready to be headhunted by competent mandos the entire rest of the game. It's not exactly uncommon.

Thank god you have quickthrow, dash to help with mobility, heals, etc.?

Mando rocket is still absurdly effective in competitive scrims where there is actual organization of teams plus dedicated supports. This is far from some isolated issue.

I never suggested otherwise? It of course should still be potent in organised environments; point was that there exist ways of dealing with it, outside of general positioning/situational awareness.

I said 9v9, not 32v13...? Huh.

Dash, does nothing against dodging a competent mando rocket. Heal... umm that was a weird point, I guess you will instantly heal 100hp when you lose all of it instantly. Quickthrow is the only argument here that is close to reasonable, though that is just trading 1 15 point win button for a 20+ plus button. Also much harder to Quickdraw a rocket mando flying through the air.

A solo hero, not a solo mando. Anyways I said balance around above average skill 9v9. Not scrims. Obviously a mando shouldn't play solo in a scrimmage. Of we balanced around scrims the game would be much different.

Weapon	Blocking (before)	Blocking (after)	Running (before)	Running (after)
EE3 Primary	6-14	6-12	9-15	8-13
Clone Rifle 1 & 2 (now split from 3)	4-6	4-8	5-7	6-9
T21 Primary	17-22	14-18	23-32	18-26
SBD	4-7	5-8	5-8	6-9
Deka	6-9	6-8	10-13	8-10

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