MapReview Blacony Dotf xD
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I have already answered that question a billion times now. What does Valve do when they update the dota map, or csgo maps? Do they provide classic versions? Nope. Does Blizzard provide classic versions of overwatch maps when they update them? No. When we updated previous versions of mb2 maps, including very popular ones, did we provide a classic version initially? No. When cloud city was removed, which was more popular than DOTF at the time, was there even a new version standing by? No. This is standard game development practice and procedure. It is intended to get enough data on a new version of a map before making further changes and refinements instead of people instantly reverting back to playing the old one.
Now, you can argue that I didn't meet my window for the refinement period, but I managed to update 4 different times (one for christmas event version), 3 of which were in a 2 month time span, and the last of which within the first 5 months while also revamping lunarbase (which no classic version exists of either) and doing other things. This gives a good idea of how fast I work, and how much I can churn out while motivated, because I didn't just do those things, but also helped setup the releases themselves, and fixed a bunch of things map wise as well, and helped run promotional material around the release of EP7. I hate tooting my own horn like this, but I am one of the few in the history of the team capable of doing all of that at once. Now that I have given you some evidence of what happens when I am motivated, have you noticed what has happened while I am not motivated? Oh, DOTF hasn't recieved an update in over a year? Well, gee, I wonder what that could be from. It isn't because of criticism, because that is why DOTF got that many updates in a short period of time, and has more scheduled. It is because I no longer have motivation, because of attacks on my person. DOTF classic most likely would have been out by now, if half the members in this community had even a minute amount of social intelligence. And you're currently feeding into that. Why would I work and do things for people, who call me names within the first 24 hours of release and consistently do it for the first 6 or so months for me to lose all motivation to work on the project? Put yourself in my shoes. I didn't want this process to take so long. I wanted to have a version of DOTF people enjoyed out already, or the classic version re-released a long time ago. It is time for the community to take responsibility for their part in this whole process. Realize that people will distance themselves from something, if they are being directly attacked rather than just criticized, realize that honey works better than salt.
If you honestly believe through all this, that it is out of spite then there is probably no way I can convince you. If you honestly do not like me for being consistent with how we have released map updates, and how other game developers release map updates, then that is your prerogative. It especially does not make sense given the rest of my contributions.. I have consistently stated that if the last revision of DOTF is not up to expectations, balcony DOTF will make its return. I still stand by that statement. You can make the choice that makes that process go faster, or you can make the choice to be a part of the community that makes me want to either take my skills and my time elsewhere or continue working on what I want to work on instead of what the community wants. You can use this as a learning opportunity for how to speak to people. There is a reason it was removed on release, and followed the standard procedure everyone does. There is also a reason it was not added back in a timely manner. That reason, is simply because I just don't want to open the map file. Not because I am being intentionally spiteful "fuck the community" but simply because I would rather work on something that brings me more joy or moves MB2 as a project forward more. The responses in this thread show me that I will be continuing to work on things that I actually feel like working on, and that cause me less stress, rather than forcing myself to do something that I no longer find fun to work on when this is my hobby that I am not paid to do. Start treating me like a person, rather than a name on a screen for you to vent every ounce of frustration towards.
For those who need a serious response and still don't get my previous larger post: Do you seriously think I would prioritize anything in this mod over any kind of surgery? The correct answer is: no.
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Sorry for nitpicking, but you say:
This ain't adding up.............
Yet at the same time:
So you say that you don't want to intentionally ignore the requests of the community, but at the same time you will keep intentionally ignoring the requests of the community because you feel like it
This ain't adding up.............
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Dude, critical thinking skills here. They exist. There is a difference between intentional spite based on anger and frustration. And motivation/demotivation. Your bad faith responses are just making things worse. Grow up.
The definition of spite: "a desire to hurt, annoy, or offend someone.". I do not have a desire to annoy, offend, hurt anyone. I just don't want to work on something because I'd rather work on something else. MASSIVE DIFFERENCE.
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The restraint Mace has here is pretty admirable. If I were in his shoes I'd probably end up holding it back out of spite for being treated like a content generation machine. There's a line between criticism and personal attacks and it's been crossed over and over.
Though now that I think about it, as the person who actually created the Balcony versions of DotF, I could still make a stink about allowing it to be re-released if I so wished. But I'll defer to the team's preferences on this. For now.
Though now that I think about it, as the person who actually created the Balcony versions of DotF, I could still make a stink about allowing it to be re-released if I so wished. But I'll defer to the team's preferences on this. For now.
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It can be readded for all I care. I was just going to stay consistent with my initial statements on the topic and readd it if the last update isn't good enough. Hell, the new version can be deleted for all I care at this point, because I am just fucking tired of being treated like this.
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In this context, there is no difference. The bottomline is that you won't work on it because of your personal feelings. And that would be totally fine if MB2 was you personal project, but it's not.
You are demotivated because of the negative feedback and attacks after dotf 2.0 release. Sure, I get it, I can totally understand where you are coming from, even if it was ultimately caused by your own decisions. But if you don't want to work on it, shouldn't you delegate fixing old dotf to someone else? You are still a dev TEAM after all. A TEAM of DEVELOPERS. Do you guys even remember what developers do? They DEVELOP. Let me find this word's definition real quick.... "to develop" means: "to grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate".
And guess what's the fastest and safest way to cause the MB2 playerbase to grow right now? Yeah, re-add the old dotf. We all know that as soon as the news spread, a ton of people would come back just to see it. And isn't that exactly what this mod needs right now? More people and more activity?
But looking at your and Spag's replies here, and judging by the fact that the dev team seems to agree with you (since they never spoke out against your plans, at least in public), I'm not even sure what you guys want to do with MB2. And I'm a bit concerned about its future.
Spag out here flexing his powers, saying that he could sabotage MB2 if he wanted to. Wow, big man! Don't mess with me or I'll hurt the mod for no particular reason other than to piss people off! This is becoming almost comical.
And yeah, I know that you're actually working on improving MB2. I've seen the UI screenshots and I know that other things are being worked on. But you NEED to address this problem already. You can't keep running away from it, or there will be no end to this controversy. Just re-add this goddamn map already so the community can FINALLY put this topic to rest and move on.
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Bad faith. Learn to argue and have a debate with someone without relying on being completely illogical. You aren't winning me over or convincing me to do anything. You're making it worse. Do you see anyone other than me actually releasing anything level design wise in the last like 2 years other than plasma popping in with something, which he only does because he distanced himself from the community and only works on things he wants to work on? Which is exactly what you're pushing me towards, I am halfway there already. Oh right, you aren't logical, and don't see what you're doing. Lini, please go to your nearest university, and take some courses on effective communication courses, something to teach critical thinking skills whether that be engineering, chemistry, or whatever, and get away from the computer a bit to learn some common sense. Do you want me to do something? The best thing you could do: is just stop replying because you are hurting your cause.
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Ah yes, Lets continue to resort to attacks. Totally going to get what you want. You don't have an actual argument.
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the map is so good we want it despite a few graphical issues, it would make the player base happier and encourage it to grow, or at least rebound. i think it's clear we could use some fresh air around here.
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I get that. I don't think it does what you say it does though. Have you ever looked at youtube or reddit comments for example? People back before we updated the map constantly complained about balcony dotf being played all the time, and they would leave the community because of it. The same kinda applies now with DeathStar. People don't want to play the same maps over and over, and some people were even happy about the new version being created because it was different. You don't see those people here anymore, because the people in this thread are part of what drove them out and caused the community to decrease rather than increase. So would it actually grow? That is just a guess. Sure, a few people might come back and be more active, for a time, but then they'll get frustrated due to something else like saber combat and leave again anyway. Its not just one thing, but a combination of things.
Thank you for an actual response though.
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Whether or not you realize it or care, individuals have control over how their creative work is used. While I do think Balcony was a good change for the classic layout (or I wouldn't have developed it...), all it seems to be good for at this point is an excuse to attack Mace or the team. Refusing distribution would shut down the argument for bringing it back (and would probably draw plenty of hate my way instead, but whatever).
For those who want to see it back in the mod, this has turned into a situation where the harder you push (and more abusive you are in the way you do it) the less cooperation you will see from anyone with the power to actually implement the change... it's really as simple as that.
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Yeah, that's because you've closed yourself off in your "I'm-a-victim" bubble and dismiss anything that goes against your point of view. Your excuse for withholding old dotf is "people are mean to me", but how can you not realize that they are mean to you EXACTLY BECAUSE you are withholding it? I've been trying to relay this simple truth to you for ages, but I guess it's time I gave up.
What, are we not allowed to talk and argue with devs anymore? Do you see yourself as some sort of deity? Is bowing and praying the only way to get you to listen to us?
Either way, I'm done with this for now. There's clearly no point in saying anything further, as you wouldn't listen either way. Good luck trying to get people on your side with this kind of attitude
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This argument would have worked and be 100% correct, if the "being mean to me" bit didn't start within the first 24 hours. If you listened to what I said, you wouldn't continue being disingenuous.
The fact that you think I could possibly see my self as a diety is baffling. Like.... wow. Of course you can argue and talk to developers, but right before you, you just had people calling me a shithead, and 2 people targeting autism. This has happened since day one. You all are no where near the point of having a discussion with us anymore.
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You are either failing at reading comprehension or being willfully obtuse. Mace has stated he doesn't have the motivation to do anything about it due to the personal attacks. That is entirely different to intentionally withholding out of spite. One is passive, the other active.
As I said earlier, I probably wouldn't be reacting so reasonably if I were in the same situation. Some people have pretty much turned it into a game of bullying until they get what they want, when they want it, as if that will ever work.
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AKA intentionally withholding out of spite because of people attacking him
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No, my intention is to not withhold it. My motivation is preventing me from doing the amount of work needed to release it.
This is what spaghetti is talking about regarding reading comprehension.
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