Make classic dotf playable again

[Defiant]

plagues the community as a whole

Only in NA. Also NA has the only consistently populated 24/7 server now. Such a coincidence.

 

[Faux]

Ah, so were back to the bit where tR resets TK points then huh?

we reset TK points for people who accrue them accidentally, because we aren't tryhard assholes who want people to get kicked for throwing a bad nade. we ban VPN mass tkers daily, which is why we have had people reach out to devs, and to others, to see if implementing a gamewide anti-VPN script would be possible.

why are so desperate to paint tR as big evil bad guys every chance you get? it's cool having fanboys but calm down

 

[MaceMadunusus]

People have literally seen and complained about tR resetting WINDSHAFTS tk points. God its like you don't know whats going on in your own servers.

 

[Faux]

Only in NA. Also NA has the only consistently populated 24/7 server now. Such a coincidence.

only in NA? Really? tell that to TIN admins, who i see get summoned all of the time. tell that to BG, who was TK'd and DDoSed so hard that a developer ragequit the game. tell that to the Russian kids who just got doxxed by Q11.

also, why do you think multiple EU servers have report functions, where you can report players when there arent admins around to deal with TKers? because EU is a paradise with no TKers? i will say it again, the amount of credit and thought people give to tR for shit like trolling/TKing is fucking hilarious.

Everything bad that happens is tR - A deluded dev's guide to MB2

"only in NA"
jesus fucking christ you people are delusional

People have literally seen and complained about tR resetting WINDSHAFTS tk points. God its like you don't know whats going on in your own servers.

And that admin had his smod access removed, something you and I already talked about, and something I offered to provide screenshots for. im not sure why you think you somehow know the inner workings of a server and clan you dont even play on. arrogance, maybe?

 

[Defiant]

jesus fucking christ you people are delusional

Stop it with the hysterics.

only in NA? Really? tell that to TIN admins, who I see get summoned all of the time. tell that to BG, who was TK'd and DDoSed so hard that a developer ragequit the game. Tell that to the Russian kids who just got doxxed by Q11.

I didn't say it doesn't happen at all, I said it doesn't happen persistently on an ongoing basis to an extent where people quit servers en mass.

 

[Faux]

I didn't say it doesn't happen at all, I said it doesn't happen persistently on an ongoing basis to an extent where people quit servers en mass.

yes clearly an EU clan that has the most populated EU servers being trolled, TK'd, and DDoSed to the point that they all shut down, and the dev who runs them quits the game, is an example of how EU does not have persistent trolls that attack servers on an ongoing basis. clearly things are much worse on the NA side of things. why couldnt i see it before?

 

[Defiant]

yes clearly an EU clan that has the most populated EU servers being trolled, TK'd, and DDoSed to the point that they all shut down, and the dev who runs them quits the game, is an example of how EU does not have persistent trolls that attack servers on an ongoing basis. clearly things are much worse on the NA side of things. why couldnt i see it before?

One incident doesn't make persistence. TIN arnt being DDOS and mass TK's to drive traffic to SF or vice versa. Vis's reasons for leaving are more than that.I feel as though you are deliberately trying to twist what I am saying - but I don't know why.

I don't know why you've turned saying that Players should have the power to determine to some extent what maps are being played into an attack on tR. Surely letting players have that choice will be more fun for them? If they vote for DS or DOTF2 or DOTF Classic all the time then so be it. I find it perplexing that you are claiming that devs are dismissive of the player base whilst simultaneously attacking what is only an idea that would give the player base more choice and power. It seems from where I am sitting that it is not developers who are telling the players what they want and whats fun - its you telling them that they have to play what you want them to play. Not everyone has 31 other friends who play that they can go and populate another server. Some people just want to dip in and out and play quietly for a couple of hours.

 

[Faux]

One incident doesn't make persistence. TIN arnt being DDOS and mass TK's to drive traffic to SF or vice versa. Vis's reasons for leaving are more than that.I feel as though you are deliberately trying to twist what I am saying - but I don't know why.

I don't know why you've turned saying that Players should have the power to determine to some extent what maps are being played into an attack on tR. Surely letting players have that choice will be more fun for them? If they vote for DS or DOTF2 or DOTF Classic all the time then so be it. I find it perplexing that you are claiming that devs are dismissive of the player base whilst simultaneously attacking what is only an idea that would give the player base more choice and power. It seems from where I am sitting that it is not developers who are telling the players what they want and whats fun - its you telling them that they have to play what you want them to play. Not everyone has 31 other friends who play that they can go and populate another server. Some people just want to dip in and out and play quietly for a couple of hours.

How does: "allow players to host whatever they want so the community can choose what map/server rotation they want to populate" translate to: "its you telling them that they have to play what you want them to play". are you ok?

and it turned into an attack on tR when Mace called out by tR by name here:

im starting to doubt your reading comprehension because you seem befuddled when trying to follow the basic flow of the conversation

 

[Jaikanatar]

My two cents on single map servers:

The clan I'm in have tried several different approaches to open mode servers as far as the map choice goes. 6 map rotations, 3 map rotations, etc. A lot of people in the community are tired of the single map servers of course, but despite hosting polls and catering to people's ideal wishes for maps, they never play on the servers or maps that they vote for. Like ever. They're gonna play on the server that's populated, and lean more towards the server(s) that they see are populated often. Hosting single map servers was the only time we found a lot of success

So when looking objectively at what gets a server populated, at least in NA, it seems to me that you have to realize and accept a couple of things:

1: That a lot of the players are creatures of habit. They seem to strongly prefer to return to the same map and server that they play all the time. It seems like they view it as stability or something, and aren't quick to hop on a server/map they aren't familiar with. It doesn't really make sense, I feel like a lot of people are sick of the redundancy. But the way it actually plays out, people are creatures of habit and want to return to the same experience they always have.

2: Momentum, which is a very big factor in a self sustaining server population in my opinion. When you establish a server, you get your newcomers who enjoy it and become regulars. They begin to play there all the time and that keeps the base foundation of the server pop. It really only takes 3 people in a server for it to start filling up, and when you have your established regulars based on their past experience, it thrives from there. We had a lot of success with that with Jedi Temple, once we had our regulars it would be full all the time, though unfortunately nowadays as soon as we get any population we inevitably get the swarm of aliases who come in as a group to tk and clear the server out. Not pointing fingers, but I think the culprits are obvious lol, and that speaks for itself.
So without the added factor of people actively trying to thwart your server's success, usually it seems that establishing regulars is the way to keep the momentum, and a lot of what gains a server it's regulars seems to be out of enjoyment for the map and thus the experience, which might somewhat explain the only populating single map servers trend.

Ps. (to not veer too off subject from thread)
Adding Dotf classic as an option would be great, a lot of people haven't been chill in how they request it but its definitely a common request, especially in game chat
New dotf looks great and satisfies a lot of people's wishes
Old Dotf's gameplay is staple and equally valid
Option for both would be very nice

 

[PizzaTheSlut]

The real secret is that almost every map made for MB2 is poorly designed and implemented when subjected to a modicum of organized play. Overwhelmingly teams camp at choke points and simple objectives. The quality of the map is then determined by how fun the fights are around these choke points and nothing else. The big hallways, the aesthetics, none of that really affects why a map is good. Lunarbase is played because the two routes see dynamic fights. Old DoTF was played because the fights in main, fed, and Throne room were balanced and fun. Not so much on the new map. Coruscant Chase isn't played because the objective leads to a team camping a small closet. Death Star, for all its flaws, still provides a decent range of fights despite being imp sided. If you start going down the maps the optimal strategy is almost always to camp a choke point as the defensive team. And this is true across the dozens and dozens of maps made for this game. The popular ones were the ones that saw engaging gameplay around said chokepoints. There is a reason no one ever ran a scrim on Battle over Coruscant or Republic Crusier, and that is because the objective chokepoints lead to stale gameplay despite all the nice flashy assets.

This is what happens when maps are made top down then tweaked for personal preference instead of play-tested to their limits in a competitive setting to satisfy all types of players, but that's fine for a free community driven mod. You could add old DoTF back to the base install and I'm sure a server to two would play it and people would enjoy it. But it's not really the issue, which is the malarky of a closed source dev team for a community of a couple hundred players. That mentality isn't going to change either as the forums (which very few players use or read) is then seen as the "community that plays the game" instead of the "community posting on a forum". Don't be surprised if those communities start to diverge in more than just opinion. Develop free software for fun because you like making it or using it, if you release it then try to social engineer its use you will quickly find your software stolen, copied, or abandoned.

 

[Lindsey]

This is what happens when maps are made top down then tweaked for personal preference instead of play-tested to their limits in a competitive setting to satisfy all types of players

This comment pleases me as this is why I've been taking so long to release Scarif 2, many redesigns and tweaks based on beta (and soon open beta) feedback to hopefully fine tune the first of the next generation fleet of MBII maps XD

 

[MaceMadunusus]

That classic DOTF OBJ choke point is A+ gameplay that is totally not invalidating the entire argument above.

DOTF has the exact same problems, you're just ignoring it, saying it doesn't exist, when its staring you in the face due to bias.

 

[PizzaTheSlut]

The gameplay for classic DoTF Main, Fed, and Throne Room + Corridor are strictly better than the new map which has too many angles and tiny doors. You're right both the original DoTF and new DoTF have OBJ based camping gameplay. The difference is the minute to minute fighting in classic is better because the map is streamlined, has very clear areas that are used for cover, has large doorways that minimize cheesy strategies and has opportunity cost for using side passageways.

 

[Arthas]

I've never seen a game dev on a tR server except Lindsey

 

[WaceMindu]

That's why you limit your interactions with the playerbase as much as you can if you can't avoid replying over and over again. You can end up being right through your actions without needing to win every verbal joust, especially with people you well know will never drop it. What's to gain here ? Other than a drop in motivation, egos being bruised left and right and taking the risk of permanently hurting the community ?
I always tend to side with the developers but the whole recent conversation was as sterile as it gets with each camp standing on its ground refusing to make even one step in trying to understand each other, trying to keep the "rhetorical" high ground through fallacies from both sides multiplied throughout each post, it just looks stupid and quite pathetic to be honest.
Be the bigger man, damnit. I would seriously have stopped replying a long time ago, I can't believe it makes any of you happier.

Set a clear deadline for when you're going to re-add old DOTF ( even though it can be delayed and the such ) and leave the conversation at that for good, for real. I've written about how people used to flame the old 24/7 DOTF and how that caused people to leave the game ( since nostalgia googles effect was in full force ), but that doesn't mean I don't want it back either just for the sake of making everyone happy. That would be what's best for the game and that should be all that matters.
There's only a fraction of the playerbase that cares about this whole ordeal, but the damage this whole argument causes to its entirety is real and completely overblown - and I'm genuinely sorry to say that it's not just the complainers' fault.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I've never seen a game dev on a tR server except Lindsey

Most of us stopped going to tR a long time ago. Linds only played on tR because he had smod for a bit. He said hes done playing on there now.

I play on things like EW every so often. I usually spend most of my MB2 time working instead though.

 

[Defiant]

I've never seen a game dev on a tR server except Lindsey

I spent an evening there a couple of nights ago despite my terrible ping because I felt it important to show my face in all corners of the community. I had a perfectly enjoyable time.

 

[FrenzY]

I've never seen a game dev on a tR server except Lindsey

I would frequent occasionally, but almost every time I am greeted with hostility, so if I go I just turn off chat and rename. Last time I came on unaliased to see what would happen, I was TKed like 8-10 rounds in a row. It probably has to do with how I 'censor' people on EW's servers. We don't tolerate the use of the n word over there, while tR seems to welcome it.

Generally if any of us go there, we alias to avoid the trolls.
But generally, most of us Devs like to support servers which showcase the large variety of maps MBII has to offer.

I spent an evening there a couple of nights ago despite my terrible ping because I felt it important to show my face in all corners of the community. I had a perfectly enjoyable time.

That's good. Sometimes it is chill there.

 

[FrenzY]

As far as DOTF goes, I am really looking forward to all of the changes you have planned, Mace. I know the general inside scoop of what you are thinking, and believe it should satisfy the masses and be much better than classic. I hope you can get to it soon, I tire of this Deathstar spam.

 

[eezstreet]

Don't know why I'm here but I feel the need to chip in considering I don't really play this game anymore and I haven't even played new DOTF but this stuff has been talked about a lot in the discord servers that I view memes on is important. Lots of people talking past each other (not even going to get into the back-and-forth between Faux and Mace there), but three key things:

1. Mace is saying that "it will take a while to add it back in" and the community is saying "well it takes like two seconds because I got this PK3 and it works??". My opinion: you're both right, but not realizing why both of you are right. It is incredibly simple to throw in a PK3 and you have a functional level to play on. This is the point the community is making. But the textures of the map will not look correct because of destructive changes made to the assets. This is the point that Mace is making. Mace and the others are saying that they want the map to look good, and the community is saying that they want something that they can play on. I think both of these points are valid. The compromise might be to name the map something like mb2old_dotf such that players are hinted that the map is old, not supported, and might have bugs. In hindsight, what the developers could learn from this is that if you're making a top-to-bottom remake of a map, don't destroy the old map.

2. Mace is saying "I work a lot of hours, I put a lot of time in this, I don't deserve to be criticized this way" and the community is saying "Wow, that seems completely selfish of you, just release the map it'll take 2sec?" My opinion: Both of you are wrong. The team can't take criticism at all and I know this firsthand - I got kicked repeatedly from the Discord server for pretty minor criticism on my part. If you can't take criticism, then don't release a public-facing product, it's as simple as that. Your pleasure in work should be derived from the accomplishment that you feel in completing something, not because other people are showering you with praise. This is a trap. If you work long hours on something and it turns out that people aren't liking it, then you probably did something wrong design-wise and should learn from it. (This reminds me of a meme...) If people are dunking on it, find out why people are, and take it to heart. You aren't going to improve as a designer if you sit in an echo chamber, thinking that you aren't wrong.

On the other side of the coin though, the way I've seen people act is pretty wrong. The fact that Mace even has a nickname of "Mace Madumdum" is really stupid and childish. The proper response to when someone is acting a certain way is to take a step back and say "wow, chill man, let's discuss this" and not to continue to antagonize them and call them names.

3. Faux, Mace, both of you have better things to spend your time on.