Mace is actually right about sabering

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by noel, Nov 16, 2018.

?

If you could revert sabering, what patch would it be?

  1. 1.3 (ive never played but heard a lot about it)

    34 vote(s)
    42.5%
  2. 1.4.2 (whichever was Pb counter patch)

    5 vote(s)
    6.3%
  3. 1.4.9 (acm spamfest)

    5 vote(s)
    6.3%
  4. 1.5 ('simple' patch)

    6 vote(s)
    7.5%
  5. 1.1 (played this one, still had old pb afaik)

    6 vote(s)
    7.5%
  6. RC1/2 (hear a lot but don't know much about)

    20 vote(s)
    25.0%
  7. b18 (hear a lot but don't know much about)

    4 vote(s)
    5.0%
  1. noel

    noel Internal Beta Team

    Posts:
    609
    Likes Received:
    601
    My two cents on the matter is that most mechanics can be maintained so long as UI improves. We've already seen implementation of new crosshairs, crosshair colours and so on which help matters signifcantly when it comes to seeing pb zones, knowing when you have been pbed and so on.

    The most obscure mechanics left in the game are essentially mblock, swingblock and things like half swings.

    As to how we make these mechanics clearer through the UI, I don't know. But I don't think that removing them or dumbing down the system is the answer.

    I think that the number of people who don't understand the dueling system is often embelished. I don't personally believe that the mods mechanics require anymore understanding than a succesful, intricate game like LoL or For Honor.

    I think the best way to continue to guarentee further 'ease of access' into the game, is to provide such information ingame, instead of on the forums. Tool tips, tutorials and so forth are the best way of doing this.

    The reality is however, that in this day and age I believe people are drawn to complexity. No one ever complained that you had to look online to learn League, or to get better at For Honor past its tutorials.

    That's why I believe 'ease of access' to such learning is a stumbling point of this mod, one cannot simply google 'how to jedi in mb2' and find an entertaining, informative video on youtube like you can for something like FH, and instead a trip through the forums might find you (at best) mine or SeV's semi-outdated, long guides.

    To mb2 community, make good videos on how to duel. To mb2 devs, make good tutorials on how to duel (which I believe it is now public knowledge that they indeed are).
     
    SK55555555555555555 and Almapa like this.
  2. MaceMadunusus

    MaceMadunusus Level Designer Movie Battles II Team

    Posts:
    1,311
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    A sabering tutorial is indeed planned, but it is the absolute last thing on the list. Constant changes NEED to stop for the tutorial to be created. I am not going back and redoing an entire tutorial of a topic that will take more work than 5 tutorials to do every year or two with things changing all the time. I am also not going to even start work on it until changes are entirely finalized.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
    Mara, noel and Spaghetti like this.
  3. WaceMindu

    WaceMindu

    Posts:
    48
    Likes Received:
    64
    We completely agree on the necessity to have more in-game feedback about sabering, because as it stands even the very best duelists don't agree on certain behaviour patterns/bugs, you can see even the very best regularly calling bullshit on stuff happening during duels; and the constant debate that's been going for years now about what miraculous feature that'll fix it all and make sabering feel good again should be included or removed is a pretty good sign that this complexity isn't fully controlled by those who created it in the first place.
    I love difficult games too, I only play those pretty much, and I don't want MBII's saber system to be dumbed down or to degenerate into something easy just because it'd make it easier for people to get into. I don't want Dota 2 to become LoL either, as a comparison.

    You do make a very good point about the lack of resources, I have to say that your guide ( thanks for writing it by the way ! ) and SeV's are just invaluable, but even after reading them 20 times, there are so many inconsistencies and odd behaviours which are linked to the ancient engine the coders have to work with, and just the sheer complexity of the mechanics making most of it almost unreadable.
    Regardless of "external resources", the point you're focusing on is also pretty much the accessibility of the regular player-base to this formidable complexity: it is pretty much null. One would have to practice every hit, combination of hits and whatnot for dozens of hours with a partner willing to waste that time to start getting some idea of how the sabering system actually works number-wise - and that's pretty much how the best duelists came to be, but then again every patch throws it out the window, and some will leave out of disgust/lack of motivation to git gud again. Investment is necessary in order to get good at anything which requires skill, but I don't think this particular type of investment is enjoyable. Hence, not many people populating duel servers any more, and I'm not fully sure that has to do with the patch in itself - not more so that any previous debatable patch. The flow of a fight is almost undecipherable unless you're a master yourself - and even then they don't always agree on what move/hit actually caused that BP drain and whatnot.

    I don't believe we can push this engine and the basis for the sabering system much further without it starting to be too unreliable like it is at the moment: can you even tell when a halfswing happens, most of the time ? It takes such a good eye that I couldn't help but joke about the cocaine: at this point, you really have to be a monster in terms of focus in order to properly follow a saber fight, provided some odd bug or engine oddity doesn't happen and fuck it all up, and I don't think that should be the case whatsoever. If the information required to understand a move isn't sufficiently readable within the game itself, then something's wrong.

    Despite being incredibly complex, a game such as Dota 2 can be pretty quickly understood and the skill involved in it can be immediately appreciated from a spectator's perspective, despite the fact that this spectator can't even dream of pulling it off - yet, seeing and partially understanding it makes you want to someday reach that level. Whenever I watch a duel in recent patches, I'm more like "I don't get it, and I'm not sure I even want to", and I don't really want to try to catch up to the masters like I used to before. It could be a lack of visual response, a lack of clearer animations, the addition of useless/half-baked additional sabering styles which made it further unreadable, I don't know.
    I'm not fluent in duelling enough to be saying "this is what needs to be done !", and it appears even the most knowledgeable ones can't seem to really agree, but I do remember that sabering did use to be a little less complex/easier to follow, and my enjoyment of it was a lot higher regardless of the drastic changes every patch introduced.

    But perhaps, considering our playerbase and the longevity of this mod, this duelling system is meant for a happy few who can understand how it works and whatnot (they're just not many, and their numbers inevitably go down every patch), and then all I've said is pretty much irrelevant :p
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
    isair likes this.
  4. Blazer

    Blazer

    Posts:
    341
    Likes Received:
    176
    Nice replies.
    I think I said this a few years back, but a big problem to me, is that whenever I died while dueling someone, 9 times out of 10, I never truly understood WHY I died. There was so much going on and it went so fast where I didn't have any time to recognize what I needed to do, how to do it, then execute it. Every time I died It was usually followed up by me leaning back into my chair, sighing then saying something like "how?"
    Then i sipped my mt. dew and wiped my dorito freckled hands onto my XL orange, (but WAS white) T-shirt.
     

Share This Page