Mace is actually right about sabering

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by noel, Nov 16, 2018.

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If you could revert sabering, what patch would it be?

  1. 1.3 (ive never played but heard a lot about it)

    34 vote(s)
    42.5%
  2. 1.4.2 (whichever was Pb counter patch)

    5 vote(s)
    6.3%
  3. 1.4.9 (acm spamfest)

    5 vote(s)
    6.3%
  4. 1.5 ('simple' patch)

    6 vote(s)
    7.5%
  5. 1.1 (played this one, still had old pb afaik)

    6 vote(s)
    7.5%
  6. RC1/2 (hear a lot but don't know much about)

    20 vote(s)
    25.0%
  7. b18 (hear a lot but don't know much about)

    4 vote(s)
    5.0%
  1. noel

    noel Internal Beta Team

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    I just skimmed through that SeV/Mace thread and found myself actually agreeing that devs have spent too much time on sabering.

    Over the past two years I've seen a handful of patches get made and a handful of patches get thrown in the bin or used for a short period of time. What's frustrating about this (and I imagine that Mace feels the same way) is that other areas of the game are being left out, I've seen people say similar things on the forum such as asking about Open balancing, new maps and so on.

    It's also frustrating (imo) seeing two developers almost competing with eachother to make the best sabering build. Don't get me wrong I admire both Stassin and Tempest's determination, but I do often wonder what they could produce together, rather than producing seperate builds and having a mexican stand off to see who's build will go in the game.

    What I don't understand is why we don't just revert to an earlier version of sabering and save the unpredictability, effort and time that creating another new patch is going to produce/require.

    All it would take would be a bit of a discussion as to what version of sabering we could revert to and from there minor tweaking could be done.

    Imo 1.3 sounds like the most revered build, and I'm guessing it would take considerably less effort to switch back to this system rather than write another patch which people might not enjoy.

    I've made a poll to start this potential idea/discussion, tell me if I've missed any builds you'd really wish would return.
     
  2. Tylenol

    Tylenol Internal Beta Team

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    Looking from a creative point of view, I'd have to assume that Tempest/Stassin/whoever have looked at previous patches and believe that they can make something better. Not in the sense that they were all garbage, but in the sense that they see reverting to a previous patch as the easy solution that would only cause more issues than solve them. Thus the constant changing of the saber system.

    Personally, I also agree that duel mode has held the spotlight for long enough for a secondary game mode. There's bigger fish to fry and things to complete, like tutorials, assault mode and etc.
     
  3. MaceMadunusus

    MaceMadunusus Level Designer Movie Battles II Team

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    I personally liked RC1, V0, and stuff like that a lot more than I do more recent stuff. I was never the best at dueling though but those systems seemed much less needlessly complex. Sure, recent systems you could figure out how to game it by abusing certain mechanics, but thats a bit different from the overall design being simpler. This is something I generally yield to for people with more experience. So you shouldn't really listen to me here.

    Yep, pretty frustrated. I am going to write a list below of some of some of the things i have wanted over the years but never could get any time at all because of the focus on sabering. Even as far back as RC1-RC3 we were way too focused on sabering, but at least a lot of other things were also able to get done during that time period. Not so much anymore. Going to leave the next bit under spoiler as not to derail the saber discussion too much. If people want to turn it into another thread then so be it. It definitely won't be all of it because I won't remember everything in one go but you'll get the point I am trying to make with it. Sorry that I started getting a little tired writing this (4:30 am) as I start getting less detailed part way through.

    General Features
    • Tutorial - been fighting for this one for years, and have been saying I would be willing to do tutorials so long as I had code assistance. Tutorials on every class, objective, etc.
    • Updated UI
      • Simpler and easier to modify from dev standpoint
      • Adding all the missing things we ran out of room for in options menus
      • Additional features like more filtering options in server list, create a server. (like filter by official maps, umad, mgmp, cmp, etc)
      • More achievements
      • TIPs system to help teach newbies with popups in a normal game to give newbies hints or things they forgot
      • Possibly adding actually visible tracking of various stats for the player.
    • Updated HUD
      • Simpler and more obvious information. For years we've tacked on UI elements as we've added features which has resulted in things being very unclear, or having tiny ass numbers in the corner for their indicator/status.
      • More information front and center (such as more crosshair options, which have minor indicators for weapon mode, hit detection, etc)
      • Possible centered hud option
      • Clear status indicators (such as various effects like poison, fire, lightning, etc on your character)
      • Actual ability cooldown timers (like say overwatch)
      • Give people actual indicator option for how much score they're gaining for doing basic tasks. Helping to encourage doing positive things like objectives when they actually see it being added to their score (again kinda like modern games)
      • Finding a way to actually track/show your entire team without screwing over network on the minimap. Making organization and teamplay easier.
      • Better team overlay (still using a modified basejka one... 15 years later, wtf.)
    • Updated scoreboard
    • In addition to visual updates in the scoreboard, rework it to more favor proper scoring encouraging things like teamplay. Example being giving score for secondary objectives, giving people proper objective assist points on things like DOTFs capture node. Another example plays into something being suggested later, but assisting your teammates by protecting them with certain force powers.
    • Analytics system
    • Analytics aren't the be all end all for game balancing, but they help a hell of a lot more than what we are doing now for some things. An example being with levels, theres several times that I just go into servers just to observe peoples movements and interactions in maps to see things I need to change that the average user doesn't see. This would be much easier with a system that tracks peoples movement flow across a level, marks where they die (so we can see chokes), where certain weapons are too powerful (like snipers), tracks their FPS so we can see problematic performance areas, etc. Basically it would make my life a hell of a lot easier.
    • With analytics we can see some information that we aren't seeing from the people we usually play with, or are really vocal.
    • We can also see problems that might not be as obvious, or see that something else is the cause of something, rather than what people think they are seeing.
    • Cinematics
    • This is partially for tutorials, but I have wanted a more robust system for levels as well. Better end of round/game cinematics, but also to add a cinematic when people first join a level or the server switches map to give them an overview of the layout and objective (like dirty bomb). Skippable of course
    • Probably should include fixing up pugmod again here as well.
    GameModes / Objectives
    • Progressive Siege
      • Essentially allowing us to have multi-stage maps. Team completes an objective and advances, team fails and has to fall back. Code wise its actually relatively simple and mostly handled by the map itself.
    • Conquest
      • You guys know about this, but small conquest maps, quick respawns, quick action, capture points.
    • Conquest Domination
      • Same as above but more traditional mb2 rules. Last man standing, faster capture points.
    • Balance of Power
      • King of the hill style mode more built around 32 people than the traditional 10. So a bit larger capture point, larger map than traditional king of the hill.
    • Capture the flag
      • Pretty obvious what this one is.
    • Payload
      • Ive always thought some objectives like Han in CC, or Jabba could use a more payload style objective. However I kind of want to expand it further giving branching checkpoints allowing the player to choose the routes, while allowing less weird BS when escorting.
    New Classes
    The amount of new classes I enjoyed the concept of that we attempted, or that I would like to even give a chance is pretty large.
    • Enforcer
      • Lets get things like magna guards, royal guards. Or even a combo of close range melee/ blaster SMG like combat. Make a deadly, versitile class that likes to get in your face while also defending teammates.
    • Dark Trooper
      • Jump jets, strong weapon, fun and mobile.
    • Mercenary/Smuggler
      • Taking proj from hero giving it to this class, giving them some unique black market gear and upgrades that other classes do not have. Not quite as "assassiny" as BH, if that makes sense.
    • Spy
      • Okay probably won't work overall as a class, but I really liked the concept of some of the gadget upgrades. Completely revamping the drone you see in basejka and giving it a ton of functionality and control (even to the point of being able to order it around, have its own little camera on your screen, etc) I also liked the fact that it had some melee combat abilities specific to the class focusing more on assassination and stealth.
    • Gungans and geonosians
      • They have some interesting weaponry no other factions has/have, and some unique defensive abilities. Worth a try
    • Astromech
    • Again really interesting potential for gadget usage and abilities. As well as potentially being a class focused on guerrilla CC/area denial.

    Class revamps/Updates
    • Hero
      • Removing proj and hone its focus toward being the front line fighter that it is. I know some people won't agree with that one, but its my opinion.
    • Droideka Revamp 2
      • Give me some new models, looking at clone wars, galactic battle grounds, etc as options.
      • In addition, use those models to your advantage. Give more options for weapons, mobility, shields. They have multiple types of droidekas to fit various roles in the universe.
    • SBD Revamp
      • Needs some major help, the armor system isn't the best conveyed or the most logical. Give them some upgrades present in things like repubic commando, clone wars, etc. Tri shots, cannon, something.
      • Finish the new models and animations
    • Wookiees
      • Adjusting things like wook rage (we should not remove it - but it needs tweaks)
      • More bowcaster options, we have models, and FX already built.
      • Ryyk Blades. Give them a berzerker alternative to melee/rage, not allowing usage of things like shoulder barge and giving them a cool melee stance no other class has. Looking at valkyr from warframe, the berzerker wooks from galactic battle grounds, and other sources for some examples of moves. We've had the models already for years.
    • Mandalorian
      • Gimme more gadgets.
    • Jedi/Sith
      • More force powers, bring protect and absorb into open mode, even allowing them to be casted on allies to allow for teamplay force power protection
      • upgrades to things like lightning, bringing ideas from say kotor to be able to place AOE lightning storms as an example.
      • Bring things like rage back, adjusting it to be siths version of speed but with some changes.
    General ability/weapon updates
    • We need greater weapon variability. Too many things based on e11 functionality. Classes need more weapon choices as a result
    • Greater visibility visibility of weapons. I made a bunch of FX a while ago to make it more clear what is shooting at you, even just by wall impacts. Only some of that got implemented in code. I also think we should sacrifice the future possibility of weapon model choice menu to more clearly have different weapon models, and possibly FX for each level and type of weapon someone is carrying so you can more clearly see what you are fighting. Sure someone could override me here but I think either way more weapon types and models, fx, is great.
    • Items like Sonic need their functionality tweaked and improved, adding a slight slow to it, etc.
    • Obvious things like flinch that I never really liked, alt frags. Too many things are focused on knockdowns and we need to find other methods. Sonic was good, just needs tweaks, and we need more things along that line of thinking than making everything a knockdown of some sort.
    And of course a bunch of QOL, bug fixes, etc (like damn data pads floating off out of existence which makes some maps really hard to play that have been problem for years). That just need to be done already.

    These aren't all the things as I am getting pretty sleepy, but I think you get the idea at this point. We are missing out on a ton of things because of the constant focus on duel mode and sabering. I really feel like I have been fighting for several of these for way too long. It is really discouraging. Some things on this list I have been fighting for for at least 9 years. Just think about that.

    When I see a tester, who blames me saying I am part of the problem mb2 is not advancing, please look above. While this same tester doesn't say anything for months, then comes into discord and mentions how we should make larger maps for duel mode, with proper duel rooms, spread out spawns to reduce travel times, 50 minute rounds etc. It just leaves me completely disgusted. That is like grabbing from the bottom of a landfill level of creativity, and barely advances the mod at all (arguably detrimentally, cause it takes focus away from the main gamemode and caters to a portion of the population playing one class). Its like the people on the forums who try to invent a new class, while using 5 things from already existing classes. Its not innovative or creative at all.

    We need actual change, bring life into the mod by adding new game modes, classes, usability improvements, revamps, and general QoL that works for everyone like I have been fighting for for years and will continue to fight for. No more of this duel mode or sabering talk. I do not want to hear it anymore. I will continue to fight for these things that benefit the mod as a whole, even though there is for some reason a part of the community that thinks I want to destroy mb2. There is so much actual potential untapped (to use someones own words when talking about duel mode enhancements) in the main game mode that we shouldn't be putting 25% of our focus on it.

    For the last few months we've had 3-4 active coders depending on time of year. One is really busy with IRL and doesn't get to code much but is still consistently here. The two are focused mainly on sabering, and a few minor open mode improvements. We basically get nothing for everything else that needs help to work on something that has been worked on for 10 years straight if not more. Pipex has gotten some extra praise from me lately, and he deserves it, for the amount of work he has done the past 2 weeks on tutorial now that he is back. That part has felt really good.

    It is to the point where I, even on top of everything I already do (level design, modeling/optimizing, FX, UI, build management/patches, roadmap, test organizing, audio work, etc.) that even I have had to do some coding tasks myself to just get something done. Its especially demoralizing when a programmer doesn't want to touch a system they've never touched before. Like dude, I took one programming class 6 years ago, don't know mb2 code at all, and I took the time to figure out my change. Another one asked if I needed help when it wouldn't compile right away. I said nope, I want to figure it out. And I did.

    Lets get to actually moving mb2 forward.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
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  4. noel

    noel Internal Beta Team

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    Jesus christ I didn't think there was that much, something really needs doing about it
     
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  5. Stassin

    Stassin Donator Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    About sabering, personally i was going to retire after v1.4.2, and ended up staying for a short while longer due to Tempest joining at that time and wanting to change sabering, until v1.4.4 where i just did some non-sabering gameplay stuff and then left for about 1 year. I wasn't very happy with how it got changed while i was retired (including v1.4.4), but didn't care much anymore and just felt that i could leave it to Tempest. The sole reason i was compelled enough to come back was sev's cryout thread I haven't played MBII consistently for 3 years, here's why. which appealed to bigger problems than just differences between v1.3 or v1.4 or whichever sabering builds.

    At the same time, while Tempest has had good points and helped the gameplay area progress, it's pretty clear he has also been unable to dish out anything satisfying for a release, the problem mainly being that his work tends to be too unpolished/unfinished and laying around in the air waiting what seems to be indefinitely. So yeah, i'm here doing more sabering stuff now, please continue blaming me for it that's only going to make me work on it more. I've been tired of sabering stuff since v1.4.2, but i strongly want to make things right instead of just pushing the stop button immediately and leaving it in whatever unsatisfying state it is in. In fact, i want to end this constant sabering patches so much that i went and put several times more work into it recently than i ever did in the past. I'm hoping that this time around, even if the gameplay design doesn't appeal to everyone because that's fkin impossible, the sheer quality of a patch will be enough to make it almost unanimously considered as an improvement that can be labelled stable and feature-locked once and for all.

    I also want to add towards Mace: yeah, that's understandably quite frustrating. But think of it this way: remove the 2 coders that are so bent on doing sabering/duel mode stuff for mb2 right now, does that increase the amount of coding you're going to get done on all features that have been waiting for years ? The way i see it, the only thing that would do is remove over half of the coding activity of the current mb2 team and over 90% of its gameplay coding activity. I can understand that it would also remove testers/other people blaming you directly for sabering stuff which must indeed be pretty annoying; but please redirect them to me, i specialize in taking sabering stuff blame these days.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
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  6. noel

    noel Internal Beta Team

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    Like I said I'm not 'blaming' you or Tempest for anything, I appreciate what you're both doing. Hopefully you're right, but 1.5 was said to be the same; let's hope this time maybe you will create the final sabering patch for a while. If not, I think reverting should be considered. I also really wish you and Tempest could collaborate in some degree.
     
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  7. PuNk

    PuNk Internal Beta Team

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    1. Go back to 1.3
    2. Lock Stassin and Tempest in a small room until they learn to play together
    3. Have reformed Stassin and Tempest make small tweaks and updates based on quality feedback but nothing drastic that will take too much of development's resources and focus from other more important things.
    4. Unban Achilles
    5. Achilles is happy. Noel is happy. Sev is happy. NA is happy. K4 is still not happy but who cares about k4 anyway.
     
  8. Defiant

    Defiant Project Leader Movie Battles II Team Code Leader

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    Personally I think the saber system does need to be much simpler. I don't like the PBlock mini-game. It is too complex for anyone new to reasonably be able to learn. The system is opaque, unintuitive and most importantly not fun. Honestly, in my opinion BaseJKA sabering is better than what we have in it's concept.

    The saber system has constantly evolved with good intentions to make it better into the current mess. One of the most basic laws of systems design in any field is that any complex system resists it's own proper functioning - our saber system is no different, and with good intentions over the years we've fought the system's resistance to it's own proper functioning by adding more complexity to it.

    All that being said, I don't believe that it would be right to take away the current system from the people that do enjoy it, unless/until the community as a whole recognises that there is a need to take it back to basics. I just don't feel that it would be right to take away the time invested by many people to pursue a system that has no guarantees of being any better. So aside from the development time and effort it would take (And one system has been taking up far too much development time for a long, long time), my question is - is there an appetite for a saber system that goes back to basics, takes away the opaque, stifling mechanics and is focused around being fun first and deep second?
     
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  9. Stassin

    Stassin Donator Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    If we wanted to make the saber system truly simple once again, and at the same time coherent, then there's no doubt that we would need to remove the recently added cyan/purple and perhaps even duals/staff, as they are too many to fit together in a simple system. However, we don't want to do that because alot of people have come to like them, and adding them was a community request to begin with.

    I want to believe i've found a compromise to this situation, by taking advantage of the fact that we have so many different saber styles, as opposed to being burdened by it. Certain styles can be made quite simple and straightforward without having access to PB methods, so that people who prefer that can enjoy it, while other styles can feature gameplay more similar to the recent iterations of sabering, again to cater to a different population. Obviously, the whole thing being designed primarily for open mode gameplay. Now when player A using a style without PB faces player B using a style with PB, player A is unfortunately going to have to worry about PB to some extent, yet it's still only gonna be bypassing the opponent's PB, not PBing himself.

    This is probably going to come off as overly complex once again, but complexity isn't bad when it's made very visible. It is bad when it is like in the recent sabering iterations, where there are many BP multipliers being applied left and right without any indication of it, or ACM giving bonuses invisibly. I don't think we'd be making a bad deal trading invisible complexity (i.e. all these multipliers and invisible things being entirely removed and simplified) for visible complexity - and on top of that, complexity which would solely be due to having so many different styles, as opposed to due to the very base mechanics and interactions of the system which would instead become quite straightforward and visible.
     
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  10. jahn morston

    jahn morston

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    RC1 no debate/
     
  11. noel

    noel Internal Beta Team

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    We tried 'simpler' in 1.5 and it didn't really go awfully well, but I suppose it was still invisbly complex like Stassin is saying. I agree generally with the premise that visible complexity is a good thing. To push that further it means logical explanation behind mechanics.

    Illogical mechanic: Swingblocking does less damage. It's invisible, makes no logical sense (if you think of swingblock as a more grounded/balanced hit versus non swingblocking).

    Logical mechanic: Moving into a swing does slightly more damage than walking backwards. Momentum = more damage. This probably wouldn't be the best mechanic for MB2 but it makes LOGICAL sense, as long as all mechanics have some kind of reasoning behind them I think it's fine.
     
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  12. Defiant

    Defiant Project Leader Movie Battles II Team Code Leader

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    It might be logical in terms of real physics, but what is logical for the real world is not necessarily logical or a good mechanic for a game.
     
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  13. KimmyMarin

    KimmyMarin US Official Server Admin

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    finally someone that says something Logical from the dev team, you really gotta consider how this *mini game of PBlocking* is an issue not only in its complexity but also it affects greatly to those that have bad ping or any other hardware issues within their own pc's just to mention something, but the ping related issue in this game specifically it affects in a HUGE manner.
     
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  14. Manyo

    Manyo

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    Had the most fun in B17 by far. Since I went back to it sometime and didn't enjoy it as much, it most likely was due to different factors.
    In B18 you could only left/right swing and with the right timing would beat anyone, so that's all i did. It was very static and boring to play this way.
    After B18 i got no idea in which versions i actually spend (enough) time with duelling, so i won't vote.

    I'm only here to say don't take B18. (edit: maybe im mixing it up with B19)
    And I like Defiant's post, but think it's only a good idea when a dev want's to do it "for fun" as a side project, because you wouldn't get much feedback from the community how to design it and it most likely wouldn't be received too well.

    Eagerly interested in the results of the poll, despite beeing disappointed by previous gameplay polls from the community =).
     
  15. SeV

    SeV Internal Beta Team

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    I voted for RC1 and my second choice would be 1.3 and then 1.4.2.

    So it's probably public knowledge by now that tempest has been working on a sabering system for years or whatever.

    Well stassin started something too, and his stuff looks a million times more promising to me in terms of getting back to the roots of MB2 sabering and finalizing sabering so we can stop changing it every patch. I haven't yet played it though, but then again I haven't rly played tempests stuff either. But from the changelogs alone, stassin wins 1000 cakes and I hope we can get a final version of the sabering system and only make small balance adjustments and maybe add something here and there if needed but no more sweeping huge changes.
     
  16. FrenzY

    FrenzY Internal Beta Leader Movie Battles II Team

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    RC1 / RC3P3 were the good dueling patches of that 'era'. RC2 was buggered and only lasted for a few weeks. There was a bug where you could edit the forcecfg files and have sith powers as a jedi or visa versa. To me at the time, it was hilarious and trolly but totally broke that build lol. MT Sith are a scary, scary thing.

    B17/18 sabering was decent, but was broken by B19 iirc and then fixed in RC1. Gotta remember that T3/Q3 reigned supreme at this time in open, such an annoying feature lol. Also, Duel mode wasn't around and people didn't complain all the damn time because they were too worried about gunners to roleplay their saber desires out. It was a nice time, it really was. Minus the whole Uppercut's DDOSing/hacking/heavily trolling thing... on the N.A. side, at least.

    Anyways, it might be a good idea to check your facts before you make a poll with 'your favorite sabering build' with clickbaity title. if you don't know a lot about the old patches and which ones saberists liked the most, maybe get that sorted first!

    I personally stopped getting involved in dueling after Cyan/Purple were added. I got back into it recently after things got a bit more balanced, but in general I agree with Defiant that things need to be simplified. That being said, both Stassin and Tempest have some really interesting WIPs that are worth giving the time and effort in testing to see how they play and compare. Both of those two, while having their differences do share assets, and that is important to mention. When I brought up bringing back private dueling about 6 months ago to Temp, he worked on it for a while (really a mess of code) and then later on Stass took on the challenge and cleaned it out a bit more too.

    So, while there may be different ideologies (especially in saber-land) I feel it is important to note that we are working together here, but we also have priorities in different aspects of MBII than you may have prioritized as a player. We are also adults who have a lot of IRL priorities so it's not like things are moving that quickly.
    Be patient and grateful that this mod still even has updates, that there are even some active devs and that work continues, one way or another.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
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  17. Jaikanatar

    Jaikanatar Internal Beta Team US Official Server Admin

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    Pblock is not over bearing, too complex, or difficult to learn. Its a very atttactive feature of the game, and I know plenty of people who chose to get good at, and many who like MBII because of it. I know its hard to meet me halfway here but 2 successful pb's in a row is as satisfying to me as 2 interrupts or body hits in a row is for a heavy offensive focused player. I feel strongly about this, pb is not too complex, I believe that is more subjective than objective

    I understand that were trying to approach this from a "new player's" perspective, but even then, plenty of new players pick up pb and enjoy it/are successful with it.

    We have to recognize that there are some players who simply do not posess the determination or interest to learn it, and these few are the players who will have much more fun either picking up other classes, casually sabering on base jka, or even on EA Bf2. These are a different type of player than MBII often attracts. For the determined mbii saberists, who have imvested a lot of interest in the aspects of dueling, pb is easy to learn, hard to master.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
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  18. SeV

    SeV Internal Beta Team

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    Yeah this ^

    I really think you've done an amazing job outlining a desirable design.

    I will just add that what we're seeing in yours vs the public versions is STRAIGHTFORWARD complexity vs obscure and arbitrary hidden ninja numbers with phantom menace influence. You've done it absolutely right because the way your 'complexity' works is that the style is just deep but you can grasp it. It's not some obscure number-game behind the scenes secret workings bs but giving ppl straightforward tools for each style and those are simple in themselves but combine into an elegant and deep design as a whole. Ofc we will see how it plays if/when we get to test it but I believe it to be a massive improvement, at least in theory, over the direction we've gone in in recent years. It's a breath of fresh air to see such innovation and not the same old same old.
     
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  19. Shalak Que

    Shalak Que US Official Server Admin

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    aiming your mouse in the direction of a swing is too complicated? This isn't BF2, start using your mouse instead of a controller

    MB2 is the csgo of Star Wars, Stop trying to turn it into COD
     
  20. KimmyMarin

    KimmyMarin US Official Server Admin

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    simple things are better, no need to overcomplicate something that relies in so many factors, including ping advantage etc.
    also i think the mod should focus on other things as well, FA content is pretty much dead because of the whole focus on other things like game mechanics, this mod could use a Fun factor situation instead of just more of the same, im just throwing some ideas in the basket thats all.
     

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