Improving the support role of jedi/sith.

[Fletcher Time]

Hi!
So, I have been playing for a while now, and every open game (or any game with jedi/sith in the mix), I have noticed that people play what is ultimately a support class, as an assault class (Jedi/Sith). Now don't get me wrong, it is possible to help your team by playing the jedi/sith as an assault class if you are skilled. Unfortunately, this is rarely the case. Usually you will see inexperienced players running towards gunners, then when at a close range, they will swing like there's no tomorrow and get killed. What the jedi should do as a support class, is stick with a gunner. When he needs to reload, block (or deflect) for him. Also, be there if another saber user shows up and fight him. The jedi/sith should be defending their team from other jedi/sith.
Now, my brother and I have thought of something that can help not just new, but also experienced players take on the support role of the jedi. It makes it very hard to defend your team when you have two or three gunners all targeting you. All the bullets that are coming towards you are destroying your FP and making it impossible to hold there for very long. We think this should be changed. Now obviously making it so jedi can defend every bullet is stupid, but If the jedi is standing still, don't you think it's reasonable that FP shouldn't be drained? Now of course there should still be weaknesses to this. The backside of the jedi should definitely be a weak point when defending bullets. This will mean that teams will need to set up flanks. We also think that deflecting should still cost FP, and that it should be done with caution (or else risk losing all your FP). Also, when defending, your FP should not recover, but not be drained. This will make the jedia/sith more of a support class than an assaulting one. Now the jedi/sith can be used to hold positions. There are still weak points so that they can just block off an entire area. Make it so the jedi cannot use force while defending like that. This way, explosives can penetrate a jedi/sith's defense. Also, other sith/jedi can help penetrate defense. Not only would this change be more realistic to the movie, but it would push jedi to not run towards a bunch of gunners.
So there's my suggestion to change the jedi/sith classes so that they are more supportive roles. What do you guys think? Would this be a beneficial change to the saber system? Could this be implemented in a fair, balanced way? Thank You!

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

I don't like the idea of infinite reflects and blocks while standing still, they already do that if there is only one gunner in a sea of sith.

I think the only way to force jedi and sith to be played as they are intended is give them 50hp. So if they just ignore the team like they always seem to do and just bum rush, at-least they get punished for it. Force them to get health upgrades. Which takes points away from spending on force and saber skills if they insist to kill everyone. 5pts 1=15+hp 10pts 2=15+hp 15pts 3=20+hp

Its hard enough to gun against a million sabers when your team doesn't even acknowledge your existence and just want to duel.
A group of gunners sticking together is the only way to really survive against a team of prominently force users unless you play the hard counters or soft counters.

This is why I wish people played FA more than open, because there is typically 1 force class and the rest are gunner oriented. And that one force class actually supports the team where in open it feels like every man for themselves. I never see a jedi or sith going out of thier way to protect me unless its convenient for them, however when I played FA they do it all the time.

Because there is actual incentive to do it, because they are the ONLY force user on the team. Where in open you can get 11 guys with sabers and one guy who is a soldier because he sucks with sabers and prefers guns. And gets murdered every-time because he cant keep up with his team, or simply cant deal with multiple opponents.

 

[NERO]

I don't like the idea. The real fault in these new players going full assault with jedi/sith is a culture thing. They've seen jedi and sith be omnipotent heroes in movies, comics, games and such. When they come to MB2 they don't really get the difference in power and how much weaker jedi are in comparison to rest of the Star Wars media.

I think a better solution is to teach new players that they should focus on support if they're new to jedi, or get used to the game with other classes. Being a good assault jedi requires good understanding of the game mechanics. Also, with the 'recent' changes to jedi vs gunner balance, it's even easier to die as an assault jedi. It should ring the bell for at least some new players that they're doing something wrong, and make them seek advice from more experienced players.

So I think that the way the game is already really, really encourages use of jedi as support, it's just that newer players don't understand this.

 

[Puppytine]

If standing still and taking shots would not take any fp from sith, it would be very bad scenario for 1 vs 1.
Just imagine: dotf, gunner and sith are in throne room. There will be no way for gunner to win this battle since sith can just stand near panel and do nothing. The only way for gunner would be switch melee and try attack... which will be not very effective, I guess.

And even without any specific map, your proposition will make situation 'Last gunner vs last jedi/sith' too unbalanced for shooter.

P.S.: Sorry if I get it wrong way...

 

[Fletcher Time]

If standing still and taking shots would not take any fp from sith, it would be very bad scenario for 1 vs 1.
Just imagine: dotf, gunner and sith are in throne room. There will no way for gunner to win this battle since sith can just stand near panel and do nothing. The only way for gunner would be switch melee and try attack... which will be not very effective, I guess.

And even without any specific map, your proposition will make situation 'Last gunner vs last jedi/sith' too unbalanced for shooter.

P.S.: Sorry if I get it wrong way...

I never thought about this in a 1v1 scenario, thanks.

 

[Fletcher Time]

I don't like the idea of infinite reflects and blocks while standing still, they already do that if there is only one gunner in a sea of sith.

I think the only way to force jedi and sith to be played as they are intended is give them 50hp. So if they just ignore the team like they always seem to do and just bum rush, at-least they get punished for it. Force them to get health upgrades. Which takes points away from spending on force and saber skills if they insist to kill everyone. 5pts 1=15+hp 10pts 2=15+hp 15pts 3=20+hp

Its hard enough to gun against a million sabers when your team doesn't even acknowledge your existence and just want to duel.
A group of gunners sticking together is the only way to really survive against a team of prominently force users unless you play the hard counters or soft counters.

This is why I wish people played FA more than open, because there is typically 1 force class and the rest are gunner oriented. And that one force class actually supports the team where in open it feels like every man for themselves. I never see a jedi or sith going out of thier way to protect me unless its convenient for them, however when I played FA they do it all the time.

Because there is actual incentive to do it, because they are the ONLY force user on the team. Where in open you can get 11 guys with sabers and one guy who is a soldier because he sucks with sabers and prefers guns. And gets murdered every-time because he cant keep up with his team, or simply cant deal with multiple opponents.

I see your point. I guess this is more of a "perfect world" kind of thing. I never though of it in a 1v1 scenario, and I looked at it from one side.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

I tried to not make it about a 1 vs 1 scenario, but with the low pop games I have played the past month the ones where its like 6 on 6.
Its just impossible to win a 1 vs 1 against a jedi in low pop games, either you play their counters or you will just get decimated unless you got the experience.

This is why I suggested the health nerf over an ability nerf, that one time I am able to land a blow on thier health doesn't matter unless its a kill shot. Jedi being able to tank hits is very frustrating if you are a gunner because its already a chore to land hits on them especially when they put points into reflecting your shots. Wookies are the only one immune to this because they can generate rage if they get hit by thier own reflected shots. So its beneficial to them to take a few hits from a reflect spec sith. You only need 25% of your rage bar filled to go full ham on anyone.

When my school and work schedule pick up again, which is like next week I will be sent to this kind of hell again where the big pop games happen like a few hours before bed which I need for homework or early in the day.

 

[andrew]

jedi/sith are a class entirely based around risk/reward and there's no need to adjust their support role atm

bigbossbigteef i think you need to spend a lot more time playing jedi to understand their strengths and weaknesses, especially in 1v1 situations

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

jedi/sith are a class entirely based around risk/reward and there's no need to adjust their support role atm

bigbossbigteef i think you need to spend a lot more time playing jedi to understand their strengths and weaknesses, especially in 1v1 situations

Andrew I am going to have to ask you to get a job and pursue a college education then ask me to spend more time on something.

Sith and Jedi beat gunners in 1 vs 1 unless they are entirely bad, I have only encountered one person who can play soldier and kill the force class no problem and he has a penis on top a smiley face for a name.

Wanna know what he does, apparently he has the twitch skills of a counter strike player and anticipates swings. That is what I need apparently, twitch skills that are impossible to ask from me.

 

[andrew]

if you don't want to put the time into understanding the class, how can you think your feedback is justified?

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

if you don't want to put the time into understanding the class, how can you think your feedback is justified?

I have been playing 3 months, and you tell me my feedback isn't justified.

 

[andrew]

hmmm

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Yeah, like every other defense ive seen presented on making adjustments on the force user class have always been.
"Yeah well git gud."

Git gud is not an argument Andrew, its a point of view.
I promise you I can play this game for a whole year and my stance will not change, nor will it ever.

I've seen two new players fight in a 1 vs 1, and I saw the jedi spam his F key and kept knocking down the soldier. He pressed F at=least like 11 times and still won, because the moment the soldier let go of the shift key he is on the ground. He cannot escape or turn around and get distance because every time he tried the jedi spammed the F key. I even noticed depending on the strength of the push, it even ignores the shift key and people fall to their deaths. The only way to be immune is to crouch. That is complete horse shit.

The fact people keep defending this is only proving to me they don't play the other classes and only with sabers. They don't understand the view points of everyone else and they think its perfectly acceptable to hit the F key over and over until they win. This is why I play wookie and sbd. Because you can see the saber users brain physically melt when they encounter somebody they can't push down.

It's glorious, its probably the best unintended feature of this game. Watching some kid rage in chat because he cant force choke a wookie, or even know how to counter them.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Never say never again.

-James Bond

Melee classes have the advantage in close quarters.
Typically you'd like to kill them from range as a gunner.
But you're not completely screwed, even when the herd has come a calling, when they're in your face.

That said, I think its a little too easy for them and a little too hard on gunners but then, nothing that earth-shattering. I'd tweak the idr for certain weapons while running but thats about it.

The rest I blame on Winter and stiffening fingers. And carpal tunnel. And age. *sniffs*
There's nothing so depressing as playing that stupid point and click game where it measures reaction time and accuracy and comparing it to past scores from years ago.

 

[Preston]

Look the thing is, if two experienced player are fighting 1 a gunner 1 a jedi or sith either it will be even or the gunner will win. Thats just how it is, a good aim will beat any jedi unless he is a ninja hiding behind a wall when the gunner can't see him. You cant say jedi is unbalanced when you see two noobs fighting it out when one doesnt know to walk and or shoot straight, 1v1 in an evenly skilled fight hero beats sith with dash and proj, Clone beats sith with blobs easy, Wookie beats sith with a good aim with bowcaster, Soldier beats sith with conc's. Bh beats jedi with poison, sbd beats jedi with cortosis and slap, soldier again conc's, ET with T21 primarys knock back and just t21ness. Mando with flames and ee3 snipers mode. Im just listing these things cause its getting tiring seeing people say jedi is extremly op and has no counters and that gunners cant beat them 1v1.

 

[Supa]

Personally I think it's because people really don't understand how a Jedi/Sith is supposed to support a gunner in a 2v1 or 2v2. Too often I see a bunch of idiots playing Jedi run in and try to kill the Sith on their own, not giving the gunners a chance to kill the Sith they're fighting from range. They get in the way, and the gunners options are to shoot through the Jedi, shoot around them or sit back and hope the Jedi doesn't lose.

I think Jedi and Sith have the tools to be a great support class already, but people don't really play that way. They want to be the heroes.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Look the thing is, if two experienced player are fighting 1 a gunner 1 a jedi or sith either it will be even or the gunner will win. Thats just how it is, a good aim will beat any jedi unless he is a ninja hiding behind a wall when the gunner can't see him. You cant say jedi is unbalanced when you see two noobs fighting it out when one doesnt know to walk and or shoot straight, 1v1 in an evenly skilled fight hero beats sith with dash and proj, Clone beats sith with blobs easy, Wookie beats sith with a good aim with bowcaster, Soldier beats sith with conc's. Bh beats jedi with poison, sbd beats jedi with cortosis and slap, soldier again conc's, ET with T21 primarys knock back and just t21ness. Mando with flames and ee3 snipers mode. Im just listing these things cause its getting tiring seeing people say jedi is extremly op and has no counters and that gunners cant beat them 1v1.

You didn't list the F key to win, and how that nullifies everything except the hard and soft counters.
The fact that I can switch to this class and mind you I am absolutely terrible. I can just press that F key and get at-least 4 to 5 kills a round.
That sounds off alarms in my head.

 

[Preston]

You didn't list the F key to win, and how that nullifies everything except the hard and soft counters.
The fact that I can switch to this class and mind you I am absolutely terrible. I can just press that F key and get at-least 4 to 5 kills a round.
That sounds off alarms in my head.

uhh yes I did LOL? I said walk and shoot, that Is all you have to do. They are completely open when they push you can shoot right through them. Did you not read anything I said?

 

[Supa]

uhh yes I did LOL? I said walk and shoot, that Is all you have to do. They are completely open when they push you can shoot right through them. Did you not read anything I said?

Problem is, the recovery time between swing-push and push-anything else is so short you can push or swing, miss either or both and still have enough time and resource to fight effectively. But anyways we aren't talking about Jedi/Sith balance, we're talking about Jedi/Sith as a viable support class.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

uhh yes I did LOL? I said walk and shoot, that Is all you have to do. They are completely open when they push you can shoot right through them. Did you not read anything I said?

I didn't see any mention of force push or the F key in that paragraph.
I even used Ctrl F to see if it would highlight anything.

You only said gunners beat jedi and completely ignored how using the F key impacts that fight.
That soldier thing, conc gerandes only work if they are cooked correctly and those even don't work if the jedi times the pushes. The T21 primary on the push, does not matter at all if the jedi is running. Its very easy to catch infact. I cant even jump using that weapon because it will knock me on the ground. And jumping is a important part in gunner versus gunner.

The soft counters, Bounty, Mandos, and heroes have a higher chance of beating a jedi than soldier and ET. The Hard counters, Clones, Wookie, and Droid classes. No doubt can kill a jedi no problem, But unless you are a counter, you are fucked.

But anyways we aren't talking about Jedi/Sith balance, we're talking about Jedi/Sith as a viable support class.

And I think the best way to make people play it as a support class is to nerf their hp to 50 and force them to get upgrades back to 100hp. By halfing their hp forces them to play more conservatively, and forcing players to buy upgrades to max health discourages Rambo behavior because they are handicapped in terms of aggressiveness. By limiting the the numbers of tools in thier kit makes players feel less powerful. Because now they have 50 points left to spend on their character. And I imagine they start to weigh their options more and the choices become more meaningful. They either have 100 hp and have a limited tool kit, or have 50hp and a lot of tools in their kit.

I even sat down and thought of this, the only people that make sense that should have a lot of health is the sith. They actually wear armor to protect themselves at all times, while jedi are always seen wearing robes. Jedi wear armor, but only upon inspection in the EU. Kenobi is the only jedi I have seen outside of kotor to wear armor. The health nerf even makes sense lore wise, because by buying the health upgrades that means they are putting on armor (its actually health).