Improving the support role of jedi/sith.

[Fletcher Time]

Hi!
So, I have been playing for a while now, and every open game (or any game with jedi/sith in the mix), I have noticed that people play what is ultimately a support class, as an assault class (Jedi/Sith). Now don't get me wrong, it is possible to help your team by playing the jedi/sith as an assault class if you are skilled. Unfortunately, this is rarely the case. Usually you will see inexperienced players running towards gunners, then when at a close range, they will swing like there's no tomorrow and get killed. What the jedi should do as a support class, is stick with a gunner. When he needs to reload, block (or deflect) for him. Also, be there if another saber user shows up and fight him. The jedi/sith should be defending their team from other jedi/sith.
Now, my brother and I have thought of something that can help not just new, but also experienced players take on the support role of the jedi. It makes it very hard to defend your team when you have two or three gunners all targeting you. All the bullets that are coming towards you are destroying your FP and making it impossible to hold there for very long. We think this should be changed. Now obviously making it so jedi can defend every bullet is stupid, but If the jedi is standing still, don't you think it's reasonable that FP shouldn't be drained? Now of course there should still be weaknesses to this. The backside of the jedi should definitely be a weak point when defending bullets. This will mean that teams will need to set up flanks. We also think that deflecting should still cost FP, and that it should be done with caution (or else risk losing all your FP). Also, when defending, your FP should not recover, but not be drained. This will make the jedia/sith more of a support class than an assaulting one. Now the jedi/sith can be used to hold positions. There are still weak points so that they can just block off an entire area. Make it so the jedi cannot use force while defending like that. This way, explosives can penetrate a jedi/sith's defense. Also, other sith/jedi can help penetrate defense. Not only would this change be more realistic to the movie, but it would push jedi to not run towards a bunch of gunners.
So there's my suggestion to change the jedi/sith classes so that they are more supportive roles. What do you guys think? Would this be a beneficial change to the saber system? Could this be implemented in a fair, balanced way? Thank You!

 

[Preston]

I didn't see any mention of force push or the F key in that paragraph.
I even used Ctrl F to see if it would highlight anything.

You only said gunners beat jedi and completely ignored how using the F key impacts that fight.
That soldier thing, conc gerandes only work if they are cooked correctly and those even don't work if the jedi times the pushes. The T21 primary on the push, does not matter at all if the jedi is running. Its very easy to catch infact. I cant even jump using that weapon because it will knock me on the ground. And jumping is a important part in gunner versus gunner.

The soft counters, Bounty, Mandos, and heroes have a higher chance of beating a jedi than soldier and ET. The Hard counters, Clones, Wookie, and Droid classes. No doubt can kill a jedi no problem, But unless you are a counter, you are fucked.



And I think the best way to make people play it as a support class is to nerf their hp to 50 and force them to get upgrades back to 100hp. By halfing their hp forces them to play more conservatively, and forcing players to buy upgrades to max health discourages Rambo behavior because they are handicapped in terms of aggressiveness. By limiting the the numbers of tools in thier kit makes players feel less powerful. Because now they have 50 points left to spend on their character. And I imagine they start to weigh their options more and the choices become more meaningful. They either have 100 hp and have a limited tool kit, or have 50hp and a lot of tools in their kit.

I even sat down and thought of this, the only people that make sense that should have a lot of health is the sith. They actually wear armor to protect themselves at all times, while jedi are always seen wearing robes. Jedi wear armor, but only upon inspection in the EU. Kenobi is the only jedi I have seen outside of kotor to wear armor. The health nerf even makes sense lore wise, because by buying the health upgrades that means they are putting on armor (its actually health).

I implied all throughout my paragraph to shoot while they are pushing or swinging. secondly, how does a jedi running affect at all a t21 primary? If they push you can still shoot someone who is moving. I dont understand at all what you meant there. And about the conc and push. All you have to do it click twice then switch to pistol and shoot them while they push. The jedi or sith think they know the timing so they pre push when the nade isnt even out of your hand. A hard counter to jedi is Hero, Bountry hunter, SBD, Wookie,Deka, soldier, and clone. A softer is ET and ARC and mando. Thats 3 classes that arnt perfect counters in almost every way. sorry that not every class is a complete counter to jedi. But its not like that for other classes either. Not every class if a perfect counter for hero, or bh, or clone, or sbd, or deka. Get my point?

 

[andrew]

if you only get 50 points, you can get 1 lightsaber style, the necessary def 2, fb 2, and jump3

not a thought out suggestion whatsoever

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

jedi running affect at all a t21 primary? If they push you can still shoot someone who is moving. I dont understand at all what you meant there.

The primary fire the T21 has, where it pushes you back when you fire. That push is so small and insignificant, it doesnt matter because the jedi can still reach you if hes swinging while running.

if you only get 50 points, you can get 1 lightsaber style, the necessary def 2, fb 2, and jump3

not a thought out suggestion whatsoever

Andrew, at one point is jump 3 explicitly necessary?
It seems to me people get jump 3 when there is nothing you need to jump on that can't be accomplished with a normal jump.
Dotf is the only map I can think of where you jump on the high bridge in rebel spawn.

Yeah its not perfect what so ever, but with the jedi being professionals around here it seems to me you need one hp to kill everyone anyway. The health nerf makes it more believable that you guys can actually die in a few hits. Not every class has a instant kill weapon and can ignore 100hp.
Because shooting people wearing robes and they tank hits is very believable.

 

[Supa]

if you only get 50 points, you can get 1 lightsaber style, the necessary def 2, fb 2, and jump3

not a thought out suggestion whatsoever

50hp, not 50 points.

The thing is, relative to every other class in the game they need health to survive, so nerfing their base health isn't an option.

 

[Preston]

The primary fire the T21 has, where it pushes you back when you fire. That push is so small and insignificant, it doesnt matter because the jedi can still reach you if hes running.



Andrew, at one point is jump 3 explicitly necessary?
It seems to me people get jump 3 when there is nothing you need to jump on that can't be accomplished with a normal jump.
Dotf is the only map I can think of where you jump on the high bridge in rebel spawn.

Yeah its not perfect what so ever, but with the jedi being professionals around here it seems to me you need one hp to kill everyone anyway. The health nerf makes it more believable that you guys can actually die in a few hits. Not every class has a instant kill weapon.

Boss, That is not what i'm talking about at all. I'm saying the primary fire from a T21 is good against Jedi while they swing because it pushes the Jedi back. Not yourself. If you have good aim you can take out Jedi while they either push at you or swing at you with 1 primary shot to the chest. so he will not reach you if he runs because it stops the run from going forward it pushes them backwards or kills them instantly. And I would say jump 3 is necessary for sure but I guess thats a matter of opinion. But T21 pushing back jedi and taking them down very low or killing them instantly with a chest/hs is not opinion

 

[andrew]

50hp, not 50 points.

The thing is, relative to every other class in the game they need health to survive, so nerfing their base health isn't an option.

he wants it to be 30 points to get the extra 50 hp back

 

[Supa]

Yeah not sure how that equates to "support". Tank maybe, but HP definitely has nothing to do with how supporty a class is.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Boss, That is not what i'm talking about at all. I'm saying the primary fire from a T21 is good against Jedi while they swing because it pushes the Jedi back. Not yourself. If you have good aim you can take out Jedi while they either push at you or swing at you with 1 primary shot to the chest. so he will not reach you if he runs because it stops the run from going forward it pushes them backwards or kills them instantly. And I would say jump 3 is necessary for sure but I guess thats a matter of opinion. But T21 pushing back jedi and taking them down very low or killing them instantly with a chest/hs is not opinion

The primary on the T21 does not push anyone except the person who is using it, I checked the library and even tested the weapon on the training map with the droids. The droids did not move what so ever.

Yeah not sure how that equates to "support". Tank maybe, but HP definitely has nothing to do with how supporty a class is.

If people have 50 hp, they wont rambo because muh 50 hp.

 

[andrew]

the class is already ridiculously supporty regardless

i dont see how any argument of "people dont play it right" should impact the reality

imo the main problem with support now is that assists no longer build to kills, and honestly how many people really care about the map score over their own kda? assists aren't even displayed to anyone but yourself, so why play support?

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

so why play support?

Are you really asking why you should be helping your team in a team based objective game?

 

[Preston]

The primary on the T21 does not push anyone except the person who is using it, I checked the library and even tested the weapon on the training map with the droids. The droids did not move what so ever.


If people have 50 hp, they wont rambo because muh 50 hp.

Boss it does push jedi back.. test it on a player

 

[andrew]

im asking what the personal motivation is for the people that actually play the game

what does a jedi or sith playing support have to show for it after a session of playing? do they screenshot their own assists and put it on steam?

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

im asking what the personal motivation is for the people that actually play the game

what does a jedi or sith playing support have to show for it after a session of playing? do they screenshot their own assists and put it on steam?

That is a good question.
Like unless its in a competitive scene, none of this really matters.
I support my team because I firmly believe it's the right thing to do, but people play competitive games so they can say they are better than somebody, Where I play it because its challenging and im into BDSM and enjoy hurting and pissing myself off.

Hopefully with the clan fued going on, maybe scrims can happen and we can see how this game plays on a competitive level.
I look forward to the GAR and AOD shit flinging.

Boss it does push jedi back.. test it on a player

Fine I will concede and try it later.

 

[Preston]

That is a good question.
Like unless its in a competitive scene, none of this really matters.
I support my team because I firmly believe it's the right thing to do, but people play competitive games so they can say they are better than somebody, Where I play it because its challenging and im into BDSM and enjoy hurting and pissing myself off.

Hopefully with the clan fued going on, maybe scrims can happen and we can see how this game plays on a competitive level.
I look forward to the GAR and AOD shit flinging.


Fine I will concede and try it later.

I just tried it twice on us open. Once on an afk and once on a jedi while he swung at me. It pushes them back out of range from the swing completly and takes out like 70 hp on a chest hit. It doesnt matter if they are moving ir not or swinging or moving forward. Also if you dodnt know, every gin pushes back a player is you land a headshot. So you dont need a primary shot from a t21 if you'r aim is good enough. You can just do the same thing but instead use an e11 or something, aslong as you get a hs atleast. But the t21 doesnt require a gs at all, it can be a foot shot even.

 

[Preston]

That is a good question.
Like unless its in a competitive scene, none of this really matters.
I support my team because I firmly believe it's the right thing to do, but people play competitive games so they can say they are better than somebody, Where I play it because its challenging and im into BDSM and enjoy hurting and pissing myself off.

Hopefully with the clan fued going on, maybe scrims can happen and we can see how this game plays on a competitive level.
I look forward to the GAR and AOD shit flinging.


Fine I will concede and try it later.

And this game works very well competitive. AOD does it every Sunday on Purgatory. Not trying to advertise or anything, dont take it the wrong way.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

And this game works very well competitive. AOD does it every Sunday on Purgatory. Not trying to advertise or anything, dont take it the wrong way.

You mean your passworded event and only AOD members participate.

Yeah I meant clan versus clan matches, where its 12 Gar and 12 AoD.

 

[Preston]

You mean your passworded event and only AOD members participate.

Yeah I meant clan versus clan matches, where its 12 Gar and 12 AoD.

Why does it matter who is in the scrim? A scrim is a scrim and im pretty sure theres a decent amount of videos on youtube on mb2 scrims but maybe im wrong. I know ive seen a few for sure.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

the class is already ridiculously supporty regardless

i dont see how any argument of "people dont play it right" should impact the reality

imo the main problem with support now is that assists no longer build to kills, and honestly how many people really care about the map score over their own kda? assists aren't even displayed to anyone but yourself, so why play support?

My question is why they took out loss of life upon round loss? Now its back to square one where people camp/hide/run to keep their deaths low.
If we're talking about what motivates player behavior, doing the objective, providing support, the scoreboard is one obvious way to go about it.

I know I don't give a rats ass about assists and the only thing I ever check is kill/death ratio of myself and opponents. And despite what some claim, its a fairly accurate measure of the current team, whether or not they are lulzing is irrelevant to the manner in which they are currently playing.

And one serious deficit that Supa pointed out is the lack of team tactics. Or teamwork.
Maybe add a thread/guide for team tactics on the forums.

As in, a gunner is blasting away at a sith, when the sith runs towards the gunner and if it seems the gunner was fairly accurate, push.

Other obvious things would be don't throw termals directly at 10 jedi with no sith support. Or even with sith support.

 

[NERO]

Skipping the entire thread:
If you have trouble killing jedi as a gunner by just aiming at them, I recommend using something to knock them down like grenades. However, you have to be careful to knock them down when they're not about to jump. If they jump while they get knocked down they just recover while they're mid-air, and only a real good shot can hit them when they're siderolling in midair.

Enough about jedi/gunner balance. I still stand by my point that we should just put more efforts into teaching new players. Especially pushing mechanics of different push levels would be a good thing to talk about. Helping visualize the cone, teaching about 'cone edge pushing' and all that jazz makes support as a jedi way easier to do, and they can get some satisfying kills by pushing rockets and grenades.

Also, I'd dare argue that jedi with 50 HP are way easier to kill when they're pushing, making support just harder and even more unappealing, and making jedi even more unappealing as a class. Which would be partially a good thing, but just because jedi is very often played, we don't want to nerf them to oblivion.

 

[andrew]

heres an easy way to make everyone play support: force power assists grant the full value of the kill 8)

no more jedi scrambling to run at people they've pushed or pulled down, sith using grip or lightning and allowing that disabling effect to assist their gunners

im a genius