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MaceMadunusus

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Okay, lets do it this way instead.

Smee, you respond on the topic of DOTF ever again. DOTF classic never comes back. It will come back when I am damn good and ready for it to come back unless you continue spewing bullshit.
 

Noob

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you both are being emotionally charged and you need to get a room. go have some hate sex, it'll feel better. one is emotionally attached to an old map, one is emotionally attached to the new one.
 

Smee

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Okay, lets do it this way instead.

Smee, you respond on the topic of DOTF ever again. DOTF classic never comes back. It will come back when I am damn good and ready for it to come back unless you continue spewing bullshit.
What a mature response.
It is obvious that you are not responding to logic, so I see no further point in debating this.
And consider this a reply to your threat. DOTF classic will never come back it seems.

you both are being emotionally charged and you need to get a room. go have some hate sex, it'll feel better. one is emotionally attached to an old map, one is emotionally attached to the new one.
flat,800x800,075,f.u5.jpg
 

Smee

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smee am i wrong tho?> :)
Technically not but there is are two key differences.
1. I am not a dev. I am not held to the standards devs are (or at least I thought they were before this thread). Anyway, I tried to keep the flaming to a minimum.
2. My solution isn't to remove new dotf, no matter how bad that map is. Mine is to have both maps. So perhaps I am in fact the centrist.
Hmm, really makes me think...
 

MaceMadunusus

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2. My solution isn't to remove new dotf, no matter how bad that map is. Mine is to have both maps. So perhaps I am in fact the centrist.

No one said that was your stance either. I am well aware people want both maps to coexist. However the community now gets what it deserves, instead of what it wants. Good job.

Edit: Good night sweet prince
B2BMtg2.gif
 
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Smee

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No one said that was your stance either. I am well aware people want both maps to coexist. However the community now gets what it deserves, instead of what it wants. Good job.
If you dislike the community so much, why don't you quit as a developer?
Also, your attitude has been very poor. You have been constantly flaming in this thread. Stuff like this is why people have an issue with certain devs.
 
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What do yall specifically not like about the new dotf though? I find it much superior, and although I miss the CW adding the Ships was a great and creative idea and frankly I'd rather keep this than have the CW back.

The right and left corridors have also become much more interesting, especially the left corridor. They're not just cramped tunnels anymore.

Altho I still don't like dotf (too many long snipery corridors) I find it much superior to the old version in almost every way. Only thing I'm not sure of the obj, but I have no idea how I would tweak it. It just feel somewhat too open for my liking.

So im pretty much just wondering what the hell do you all actually hate so much with the new dotf compared to the old one, this shit keeps coming back
 

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fuck it, while we're not changing back to topic. i dislike both DOTFs they should be removed and mygeeto needs a revamp and be the new dotf
 

Smee

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The thread was about developers not reacting well to feedback and has ended with a dev having a public meltdown and deleting a loved map. This is what we mean.
 

Stassin

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I mean, the game was fun until V1.2 (if that's the version with all saber styles implemented into Open). Can you remind me when was it that you started to greatly influence the game?
I initially joined because i thought sabering had some poor aspects & the most glaring ones were not getting fixed due to the dev team somewhat starting to die at the time, in v0.1.9. Yeah that amazing stagger patch where you'd stagger every single time you got hit and had/reached below half BP. There were a number of other issues i wanted to address due to noticing them in-game and being annoyed at them - that's the same process everyone goes through when playing, i just played a ton at the time.

Main sabering things/issues that i've changed completely compared to v0.1.9:
1) removed that obnoxious stagger happening all the time
2) removed being able to PB randomly in any state such as while knocked down
3) removed PB being based on saber collision thus requiring to aim into the ground to make it work at best possible and still then being very unreliable (despite what many of the old players might have said, that is just a fact, and you could completely get around PB with simple attacking strategies far easier to do than in current days), now PB is based on camera aim which was originally an idea from Serath
4) changed BP drain cooldown being high enough to make 2 chained yellow swings only drain BP once, now is short enough for even blue swing chains to drain BP on every attack
5) removed mutual bodyhits which occurred instead of parries because parries only triggered on saber/saber collision
6) halfswings made all of similar speeds, instead of being extremely slow or even spinning around in lots of directions compared to some other much faster directions, for all styles
7) adding cyan/purple into open mode
8) readding blocking animations when hit (like in RC1) instead of nudge
9) making saber swings be harmful and interact only in their middle attacking phase

I started to "greatly influence the game" (i.e. experimenting with sabering changes) with the release of v1.0, where issues 1) 2) 4) were addressed. I believe you & everyone felt this was an improvement. With v1.1 came 3) 5) 7) 9) which are the major changes that some old players like yourself didn't like. Cyan/purple was only added due to the community asking for it, while the three other things were my own initiative to try and make the system far more consistent, which came at the cost of a lot of feelings of precise control you had over your saber. However there were still alot who liked it, so i wasn't prompted to revert all of this. Though trying to reintroduce some of these things partially is something that's been up in the air in my mind for a long time, in order to improve those feelings of control while not reducing the great consistency of the current system. On the other hand 6) and 8) were added in v1.4 in an attempt to learn what we could from the older systems in order to improve the current one (v1.3), i.e. adding blocking animations which means interrupts. Interrupts didn't exist in the entirety of v0 nor v1 until v1.4. 6) was added because with camera aim-based PB all those slower halfswing directions were basically useless, while even before camera aim-based PB they were still very underused simply because of being so slow which just makes them bad compared to the fast ones.

Now for what you personally really hate, i believe the main thing is 3), the addition of camera aim-based PB, because due to that you no longer have the freedom to attack in whatever direction you want and only care about timing/positioning. You now have to also care about swing direction. It is a fact that before v1.1 most swing directions were underused, not only because lots of them were very slow but also because there was no point in using them because they couldn't be PBed reliably even if someone kept doing the same one all the time. Then i think the other things you wouldn't like are 6), because everyone pre-v1.1 loved to do that left yellow halfswing all the time since it was by far the fastest. Then probably you'd dislike 8) because it forces players to care about when they're getting hit and base their timings around that, instead of doing whatever they want and only caring about their own offense. In short these mechanics have added lots of new factors you need to take into account, making the system harder to play and requiring adaptation to your opponent, rather than just using your muscle memory to do pre-learned combos which are enough to beat most people by default. I think you would also dislike 5) because it removes some of that precision feeling and somewhat "dumbs down" the swinging experience.

Well sorry. While there are some things about feelings of freedom that i agree were good, there were also very retarded things. Aiming into the ground to PB, having only 1 or 2 halfswing directions that mattered, i can't consider these things good even when i was also accustomed to them from years of playing.
 
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Stassin

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I also want to reiterate what Mace keeps saying here. Literally every dev has ALWAYS listened closely to feedback and made decisions based on it, from the time i can remember when first joining. Yes when working on new features, whatever it was, there hasn't always been open betas to show them to everyone and that's what the beta team has always been here for. Even before showing them to the beta team, agreement from at least a few other devs has almost always been necessary for anything, and finally when something went into a release without even going through the beta team, which was very rare and usually due to last minute work before a release, obviously agreement from other devs was required, this is a team and it's not possible to just do anything you want (i did have quite a few mechanics implemented that never made it past beta testing, aswell as a ton of ideas that never made it past dev agreement which one should always check for first before proceeding to spend time implementing stuff).

Well it's really simple, if someone didn't do that kind of checking and made ninja changes not properly explained and documented in their personal changelogs they'd get called out for it by other devs (and we have had that sort of issue recently... not gonna call out names...). Anyways, the point is, yes feedback does matter tremendously, and yes, this also means that far from everyone who gives feedback will be happy about it because there's tons of different feedback and even the best compromise (which isn't always what is achieved) would leave many unsatisfied. So, understand that while being vocal about this is great and all and even helps us, it also doesn't mean there exist solutions that can satisfy everyone, far from it, and people who are vocal usually can't cook up instantly the magically perfect solutions that will work from, especially when the dev team is also unable to do that with extensive beta testing. More importantly, understand that there is other feedback from other people too, and as devs we have a particularly broad view of ALL the feedback.

Now there's also the difficult issue of the quality of feedback. Most feedback comes from the player's personal experience and it's not easy to broaden that. Not all players have deep understanding of all mechanics in mb2 (which aren't exactly very simple amongst video games), and that doesn't invalidate their opinions/feedback but it certainly doesn't give them major weight. Think about it, suppose you are Kael a NA duelist who has been playing for over 3 years and is among the best duelists, are you gonna give much care to someone who said he's been playing for 1 month and claims perfect block is a retarded mechanic that's way too easy to do and needs to be replaced with MBlocking all the time, and while trying to duel you gets literally stomped so hard that 100% all of his attacks are perfect blocked ? Well the correct answer is no, because you have a broader view than him and you know that there are many other more advanced players who can get around your perfect blocking just fine. And truthfully, this type of misguided feedback such as what i've just put as example, is rather frequent.

Here's my example of a broad view of feedback. For example, right now, there are alot of people complaining about the new saber system, about how it's garbage for a number of reasons. Well, i know for a fact that there are also many people who like it very much and were actually waiting for this. I also know that many people who are criticizing it are actually mostly only unhappy about some things such as purple stab and the large BP regen on perfect blocks - these things are certainly not "unbalanced" despite what these people are saying, but it seems clear that they are perceived as not fun to play with for many, and so will be changed. On the other hand, people who claim that damages are too high, that duels end too fast even after they have gotten used to the system, i will not change that apart from very slight adjustments. Why ? Because there's whole years of previous feedback that i am aware of, stating that mistakes are forgiven far too much in v1.4.X saber systems, to the point that the gameplay feels very bland and unimpactful, which i deem to be more important than the feedback of people who think it's too punishing now. Similarly, people have been saying that styles are too different to the extreme, and i apply a similar reasoning to that. A large amount of previous feedback has made it clear that in v1.4 patches all styles "kinda felt like yellow" and that the gameplay was extremely bland due to that, so i will also not change that apart from very slight adjustments.

I am far from "perfect" (whatever that means), and yes when addressing feedback i bring up new things to test in order to fix issues. It is a fact that in v1.3 a major concern of feedback was parry spam being far too prevalent, hence the addition of PB combo-breaking in v1.4 which was bad and later got removed. Alot of things are experiments, and that can't be helped. But despite being experiments, they are still features that have been chosen as the best out of a bunch of others due to internal feedback (and now more recently open beta feedback).
 
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Stassin

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The thread was about developers not reacting well to feedback and has ended with a dev having a public meltdown and deleting a loved map. This is what we mean.
Mace please start ignoring him. Obviously he's trying to be a devil's advocate, find only wrongs in us devs, and never admit to any right, for the sake of it or even for the fun of it. Which, while it may be frustrating for us since we put so much work into this while he's just chilling shittalking, isn't helping any discussion and really is just a waste of time like you mentioned earlier as we should just be doing work instead.
 

MaceMadunusus

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The thread was about developers not reacting well to feedback and has ended with a dev having a public meltdown and deleting a loved map. This is what we mean.

Its funny you think I'm having a meltdown. I'm laughing my ass off over here.
 

Noob

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Its funny you think I'm having a meltdown. I'm laughing my ass off over here.
Not helpful to the conversation.
Well it's really simple, if someone didn't do that kind of checking and made ninja changes not properly explained and documented in their personal changelogs they'd get called out for it by other devs
This. This is stuff people need to know sometimes. If there is an internal issue it should be stated if it affects anything that hinders productivity of the updates. As for what you say about sabering and experienced feedback. Keep in mind that a lot of the veterans are gone. The ratio of people with <year of experience to more is considerably higher. Plus, fresh minds can always be helpful to people who have had one idea in their head about a game for 5+ years or more. I personally think sabering now is a step in the right direction but definitely needs work, but that's what feedback should be for. Our current system is really lackluster in terms of figuring out what needs to be improved. It's hard to quantify over a forum only.
 

Noob

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ill take your /pol/ and raise you a /b/
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No one said that was your stance either. I am well aware people want both maps to coexist. However the community now gets what it deserves, instead of what it wants. Good job.

Edit: Good night sweet prince
B2BMtg2.gif
You didn't actually delete it....right?
 
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