Thanks for your patience everyone. I know most have been/are eager to see where Saber vs Saber is heading in the future of MB2. I also know that not everyone has agreed nor will agree with all of the changes but consideration for all perspectives, opinions, and aspects of gameplay has been taken, I assure you. This thread isn't going to concern/go into plans for changes to Force powers. After the polished saber changes are released, that's when all of that stuff is going to start getting worked on/tuned up (and I'm very much looking forward to it).
Starting out, I'd like to convey my personal thought process behind changing mechanics/features of the saber system. When I think back through the various systems I've played through, the one I enjoyed the most is probably v0. Aside from perfect blocking being mostly based on the orientation of both player's cameras (which did have its merits), that has felt like the most fluid/least clunky of what I can remember. However, I've also looked at the pros/cons of pretty much every build from the eyes of many players and have been trying to incorporate the best parts of each while addressing the main flaws as well. My goal in the long-term for sabering is to make attacking and defending be on even ground as far as incentive, effectiveness, and versatility in the options that are available, as well as having depth without being too complicated. Also having gameplay be tactical and enjoyable for all parties involved, of course.
2) Nudge - I know this has been a controversial mechanic for as long as it has existed. I understand why people hate it. I understand why people want it. After experimenting and discussions, it's been decided to leave it off and see how the community feels during tests (will have it turned on or off for different playing sessions). Feedback from everyone will be important on this!
3) Perfect Block, Semi-PB, and PB counter - Semi-PB and PB counter along with the currently removed PB combo break have been nearly as controversial as Nudge. I (and quite a few others) think that they do more detracting from dueling than adding skill (not saying there's no skill in PB countering but that's not the truly skillful part of the defensive mechanic it coincides with). I'm planning to completely remove Semi-PB as well as experiment with either trading PB counter for a modified PB combo break (range-based to reduce randomness/unintentional combo breaking) or just removing it and seeing what kind of feedback that gets.
4) Adjustment to BP drains/regen - Alongside the drains in 1.4.4, I'm working on adjusting the rate of BP upkeep so that mindless swinging as well as things such as very specific timing windows relating to buggy hitboxes (getting full damage without going through actual animations is already annoying but I didn't want to completely destroy those who enjoy incorporating yawing into their play). Essentially, BP regen will kick in a frame or two later if you are not at least going through the very early stages of the swing animations (there's still some slight tweaking to do per style but it will basically go unnoticed by those who don't abuse/run into this specific aspect of sabering consistently). Also going to be trying out higher global BP damage multipliers to see how they pan out. BP regen will also be slightly increased so the higher damages with the recent drains on swings aren't completely overbearing.
5) Combo Breaking - This has been an interesting mechanic that was introduced fairly recently (in the grand scheme of things). I think that having it incorporated into the first perfect block done would be fine if/when the PB zones get adjusted to not overlap and adjusted so that it's not triggered by accident on a regular basis. That said, all combo breaks will now be visually indicated by some form of flinch/stagger so that there's no guesswork on either end when someone can't swing anymore. A full list of what triggers these along with the length/duration of the stagger and whether you can block or not during them will be included/updated as we figure the numbers out.
*I do plan to let people try out a range-based (to avoid the randomness factor as mentioned) PB combo break in open betas.
6) Indicators - New indicators are going to be implemented that make it very clear how much damage you're dealing/negating.
When attacking, you'll have the following:
8) Animation/comboing adjustments - Addressing instant swinging was one of my original goals for changes to sabering. This has almost been finalized. Combo chaining will also be slower across the board (which is part of why the damage has been increased globally). Still have some tweaking to do for Staff on that though.
9) Mblock adjustments -
1) Blue - Most that have commented on possible changes to it have wanted it to be reverted to 1.3. Given I used to main Blue and enjoyed being able to beat people down with the 8 swing limit, I also wanted to make Blue actually have a defined baseline. Blue is supposed to be a defensive style that can also wear down the opponent with quick/precise strikes. Trying out a scaling BP drain on PB is the first option I wanted to try out. Having it gain short bursts of extra BP regen (this would require some re-tuning of the AP/BP values of course) is the other I had in mind since having a way to do damage without actually attacking is almost counterintuitive by nature.
2) Cyan - Cyan has been a roller coaster of emotions for most since it got introduced into Open. Most who want something done about it either want it deleted or changed to be more parrying-oriented. I'm more inclined to go with the latter. With that, I've moved it more toward needing precision and control to get the most of the style.
3) Yellow - As I mentioned already, Yellow is a bit difficult to balance. Giving it both offensive and defensive aspects while tuning down its numbers keeps it as the "all-rounder" style without making it too good at offense or defense.
4) Staff - Given the changes to Mblock, it was difficult to figure out how to keep Staff as the Medium styles' defensive specialist. So instead of having all these extra things added alongside the potential to stagger/flinch on Mblock, I let it keep the ACC/ACM related things, have improved stagger durations with Mblock combo breaking, as well as kepping the ability to disarm on a less precise Mblock for itself. These are currently placeholder until something more fitting comes up (if something more fitting comes up..).
5) Duals - Ah, Duals. The style that pretty much nobody likes/understands how to fight while looking pretty much terrible when involved in saber vs saber combat. The goal for Duals was to make it less effective with flailing and give more focus on its utility. The adjustments listed alongside the tweaks to animations will make fighting Duals a much less annoying experience.
6) Red - So Red has been an interesting thing to experiment with. There's two different forms of stagger I'd like for people to try out. One is the non-halfswing stagger on body hits (more raw aggression but more prone to being interrupted since there's no Nudge and can't facehug with instant chained swings) and the other is a slightly expanded version of the current one (allowing feinted swings to stagger as well). I'm curious to see the reactions on this (it's not as OP as it sounds by default because of animation adjustments).
7) Purple - I thought a lot about Purple. Probably more than any other style (well maybe just behind Staff) and there's not a lot of room for things to be changed (or really that could be changed without completely breaking it in some form or another). It's a heavy style that's a bit more suited for non-purely aggressive fighters. I personally think that its theme fits more to wearing an opponent down with tactical hits rather than raw aggression (that's Red's thing) so having it able to do some small damage through PB is a start.
So much stuff, whew. None of this is finalized so don't freak out if you see anything you don't like.
Starting out, I'd like to convey my personal thought process behind changing mechanics/features of the saber system. When I think back through the various systems I've played through, the one I enjoyed the most is probably v0. Aside from perfect blocking being mostly based on the orientation of both player's cameras (which did have its merits), that has felt like the most fluid/least clunky of what I can remember. However, I've also looked at the pros/cons of pretty much every build from the eyes of many players and have been trying to incorporate the best parts of each while addressing the main flaws as well. My goal in the long-term for sabering is to make attacking and defending be on even ground as far as incentive, effectiveness, and versatility in the options that are available, as well as having depth without being too complicated. Also having gameplay be tactical and enjoyable for all parties involved, of course.
Current state of plans/changes
1) Perks/Style flavor - I'm personally trying to move away from the mindset that all styles should have some innate perk by default (this doesn't mean completely removing them from all styles however). I want the stances to play according to their fundamental designs/baseline playstyles. I also want to keep what everyone has enjoyed about using them without making them unenjoyable to play against (i.e. Blue with Nudge is something most will agree is not fun to play against). That said, some styles may look like they've gotten more attention/care than others based on bullet points in changelogs. I'll say again that I've spent lots of time considering almost every angle in regards to possible adjustments to them and am confident they'll end up as intended.2) Nudge - I know this has been a controversial mechanic for as long as it has existed. I understand why people hate it. I understand why people want it. After experimenting and discussions, it's been decided to leave it off and see how the community feels during tests (will have it turned on or off for different playing sessions). Feedback from everyone will be important on this!
3) Perfect Block, Semi-PB, and PB counter - Semi-PB and PB counter along with the currently removed PB combo break have been nearly as controversial as Nudge. I (and quite a few others) think that they do more detracting from dueling than adding skill (not saying there's no skill in PB countering but that's not the truly skillful part of the defensive mechanic it coincides with). I'm planning to completely remove Semi-PB as well as experiment with either trading PB counter for a modified PB combo break (range-based to reduce randomness/unintentional combo breaking) or just removing it and seeing what kind of feedback that gets.
4) Adjustment to BP drains/regen - Alongside the drains in 1.4.4, I'm working on adjusting the rate of BP upkeep so that mindless swinging as well as things such as very specific timing windows relating to buggy hitboxes (getting full damage without going through actual animations is already annoying but I didn't want to completely destroy those who enjoy incorporating yawing into their play). Essentially, BP regen will kick in a frame or two later if you are not at least going through the very early stages of the swing animations (there's still some slight tweaking to do per style but it will basically go unnoticed by those who don't abuse/run into this specific aspect of sabering consistently). Also going to be trying out higher global BP damage multipliers to see how they pan out. BP regen will also be slightly increased so the higher damages with the recent drains on swings aren't completely overbearing.
5) Combo Breaking - This has been an interesting mechanic that was introduced fairly recently (in the grand scheme of things). I think that having it incorporated into the first perfect block done would be fine if/when the PB zones get adjusted to not overlap and adjusted so that it's not triggered by accident on a regular basis. That said, all combo breaks will now be visually indicated by some form of flinch/stagger so that there's no guesswork on either end when someone can't swing anymore. A full list of what triggers these along with the length/duration of the stagger and whether you can block or not during them will be included/updated as we figure the numbers out.
*I do plan to let people try out a range-based (to avoid the randomness factor as mentioned) PB combo break in open betas.
6) Indicators - New indicators are going to be implemented that make it very clear how much damage you're dealing/negating.
When attacking, you'll have the following:
- Red (Max Damage) - This is the maximum amount of damage you dealt (enemy was running, you countered off a Pblock, was swingblocking and scored a body hit).
- Orange (Half Damage) - You dealt around 50% your maximum possible damage on this swing.
- Yellow (Zero Damage) - The enemy completely blocked your attack (Pblock).
- Bright Green (Prevented All) - You successfully prevent all of the enemies incoming damage (Pblock).
- Dull Green (Prevented Half) - Non-PB, non-body hit contact (no more semi-PB stuff)
- Aqua (Prevented None) - You took maximum damage from the enemy (Body hit).
8) Animation/comboing adjustments - Addressing instant swinging was one of my original goals for changes to sabering. This has almost been finalized. Combo chaining will also be slower across the board (which is part of why the damage has been increased globally). Still have some tweaking to do for Staff on that though.
9) Mblock adjustments -
- Mblock vs Swingblocks
- Dull Green:
- Short stagger (can still block blasters during this flinch, which will reset it (just like normal flinch)).
- Attacker takes normal BP damage during the flinch animation.
- Bright Green:
- Short stagger (can still block blasters during this flinch, which will reset it (just like normal flinch)).
- Combo breaks attacker
- Drains BP from attacker
- Dull Green:
- Mblock vs Non-Swingblocks
- Dull Green:
- Full stagger (cannot block blasters)
- Attacker takes increased BP damage during the stagger animation.
- Does not disarm the attacker.
- Full stagger (cannot block blasters)
- Bright Green:
- Full stagger (cannot block blasters)
- Attacker takes increased BP damage during the stagger animation.
- Disarms the attacker
- Dull Green:
- Non-halfswings give +2 ACM (equivalent of +1 in current builds)
- Half-swings give +1 ACM
- Blue
- Swing count of 2
- AP: 7->5
- BP: 60->62
- Drains (9 base + 1 per ACM) BP on PB
- 20% ACM bonus damage scaling on specials
- Loses 2 ACM on body hit
- Cyan
- Swing count of 4
- BP: 55->52
- AP: 9
- All swings can combo break on Perfect Parry
- Reduces 33% of ACM bonus to parries from opponents
- Deals 75% damage on consecutive swings (cause fast)
- Loses 2 ACM on body hit
- Yellow
- AP: 12->11.
- BP: 56
- Swing count of 4
- No BP drain for failing Mblock
- Drains 2 ACM on a PB counter body hit
- White
- Swing count of 4
- AP: 11
- BP: 59
- Successful Mblock no longer automatically counts as a PB by default
- Mblock related staggers are buffed compared to other styles
- Mblock Vs Swingblock
- Dull green: -2 ACC for attacker
- Bright green: -2 ACC for attacker, +1 ACC for defender
- Mblock Vs Non-Swingblock
- Dull green: Half ACC loss for attacker, +2 ACC gain for defender, disarms attacker
- Bright green: All ACM lost for attacker, +2 ACC gain for defender
- Dull green: Half ACC loss for attacker, +2 ACC gain for defender, disarms attacker
- Large block radius.
- Green
- AP: 10->9
- BP: 55
- Swing count of 5
- All swings 0.75x damage without ACM
- Special moves have 50% of their ACM multiplier added into their damage
- Lose 5 BP on Perfect Parry
- Loses 2 ACM on body hit
- Red
- Swing count of 3
- AP: 15->14
- BP: 50
- All non-halfswings cause a stagger on body hit
- Being PB counter body hit is -1 ACM
- Doesn't lose BP when Mblocked on swingblocks
- Purple
- Swing count of 3
- AP: 13->11
- BP: 52
- Deals (6 + 1 per ACM) BP through PB
- Being PB counter body hit is -2 ACM
1) Blue - Most that have commented on possible changes to it have wanted it to be reverted to 1.3. Given I used to main Blue and enjoyed being able to beat people down with the 8 swing limit, I also wanted to make Blue actually have a defined baseline. Blue is supposed to be a defensive style that can also wear down the opponent with quick/precise strikes. Trying out a scaling BP drain on PB is the first option I wanted to try out. Having it gain short bursts of extra BP regen (this would require some re-tuning of the AP/BP values of course) is the other I had in mind since having a way to do damage without actually attacking is almost counterintuitive by nature.
2) Cyan - Cyan has been a roller coaster of emotions for most since it got introduced into Open. Most who want something done about it either want it deleted or changed to be more parrying-oriented. I'm more inclined to go with the latter. With that, I've moved it more toward needing precision and control to get the most of the style.
3) Yellow - As I mentioned already, Yellow is a bit difficult to balance. Giving it both offensive and defensive aspects while tuning down its numbers keeps it as the "all-rounder" style without making it too good at offense or defense.
4) Staff - Given the changes to Mblock, it was difficult to figure out how to keep Staff as the Medium styles' defensive specialist. So instead of having all these extra things added alongside the potential to stagger/flinch on Mblock, I let it keep the ACC/ACM related things, have improved stagger durations with Mblock combo breaking, as well as kepping the ability to disarm on a less precise Mblock for itself. These are currently placeholder until something more fitting comes up (if something more fitting comes up..).
5) Duals - Ah, Duals. The style that pretty much nobody likes/understands how to fight while looking pretty much terrible when involved in saber vs saber combat. The goal for Duals was to make it less effective with flailing and give more focus on its utility. The adjustments listed alongside the tweaks to animations will make fighting Duals a much less annoying experience.
6) Red - So Red has been an interesting thing to experiment with. There's two different forms of stagger I'd like for people to try out. One is the non-halfswing stagger on body hits (more raw aggression but more prone to being interrupted since there's no Nudge and can't facehug with instant chained swings) and the other is a slightly expanded version of the current one (allowing feinted swings to stagger as well). I'm curious to see the reactions on this (it's not as OP as it sounds by default because of animation adjustments).
7) Purple - I thought a lot about Purple. Probably more than any other style (well maybe just behind Staff) and there's not a lot of room for things to be changed (or really that could be changed without completely breaking it in some form or another). It's a heavy style that's a bit more suited for non-purely aggressive fighters. I personally think that its theme fits more to wearing an opponent down with tactical hits rather than raw aggression (that's Red's thing) so having it able to do some small damage through PB is a start.
So much stuff, whew. None of this is finalized so don't freak out if you see anything you don't like.
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