Feedback Thread: Open Beta (after V1.4.9) - Drop 4

[Lessen]

Anyone getting hit has a two week's heads up. You'll be behind cover before there's any risk for severe risk.

In many imaginable situations, especially 1v1s, the combination of clone's speed advantage and ion's huge explosion radius means a clone can charge the ion while in cover and then chase down the enemy gunner (even behind cover, remember: speed advantage + explosion radius) and zap em. Ions are mostly just underexploited, I think, because it's not entirely obvious how to use them well. But for someone who understands how to use them, and has good enough blaster aim to follow up on the stun, ions can actually seem kind of brain-dead linear, with little to no counterplay options (really all you can do is try to stall by running around cover even though you're slower, OR by getting close and hoping they fuck up and hit themselves too with the ion.)

Although, disclaimer, I myself have actually almost never used them, so I might be oversimplifying my description above; I've just seen a gunner I really respect (Orin, always aliases in-game, and has been inactive for a couple months by this point) use them to great effect, while making them look rather brain-dead strategically.

It's possible I got too caught up in Orin's own critique of blobs (she emphasized clone's ability to "sprint around corners while charging" iirc), I'll try to remember to actually try using them myself to solidify my understanding of them.

Everything else you said is fine by me, I need to actually play the beta more and see, after the next hotfix.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

Stun duration on pulse might be a bit long, will try it out when I can - I do like the look of these changes though.

If we're applying reductions to saberist FF damage though, I'd propose upping the friendly fire resistance of saberists to like 40% - honestly the last thing a saberist should have to worry about while being as flimsy as they are is their team mates accidentally shooting them in the head for 40+ damage.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

In many imaginable situations, especially 1v1s, the combination of clone's speed advantage and ion's huge explosion radius means a clone can charge the ion while in cover and then chase down the enemy gunner (even behind cover, remember: speed advantage + explosion radius) and zap em. Ions are mostly just underexploited, I think, because it's not entirely obvious how to use them well. But for someone who understands how to use them, and has good enough blaster aim to follow up on the stun, ions can actually seem kind of brain-dead linear, with little to no counterplay options (really all you can do is try to stall by running around cover even though you're slower, OR by getting close and hoping they fuck up and hit themselves too with the ion.)

Although, disclaimer, I myself have actually almost never used them, so I might be oversimplifying my description above; I've just seen a gunner I really respect (Orin, always aliases in-game, and has been inactive for a couple months by this point) use them to great effect, while making them look rather brain-dead strategically.

It's possible I got too caught up in Orin's own critique of blobs (she emphasized clone's ability to "sprint around corners while charging" iirc), I'll try to remember to actually try using them myself to solidify my understanding of them.

Everything else you said is fine by me, I need to actually play the beta more and see, after the next hotfix.

At one point I used nothing but ions in my clone builds. The requirement to charge-up in order to achieve a lesser result than what you get with direct hits from concussive shots just quickly becomes evident.

Ions can be a good offensive tool around corners, but so are grenades and bounced shots. Abilities should have something they're good at. Its up to the players to recognize the moment they are at a disadvantage and do their best to mitigate that disadvantage. As an example case @k4far was stating that the mando rockets were OP after getting one lucky panic rocket direct hit on me up close. The following rounds I proceeded to evade every rocket with good use of Dexterity.

Abilities need to be powerful can be strong against unprepared people. If that is not the case, the ability will be very boring and unsatisfying to use.

Seeing as the ion is currently very under-represented both in PUGs and public brawls, nerfing it seems counter-productive. If it's so good, people should be using it.

@Tempest please let's not add more new changes in subsequent open betas. Let's rather fine-tune and subtract from our current set in aspects that aren't panning out as hoped. It's already overwhelming to keep track of all these changes.

List of things that feel good and ought to be pretty good to go:

• New DR logic on Jedi
• Increased shot speeds
• Concussive Blob's damage & speed nerf
• Flinch removal
• Stamina UX improvements
• Nade FP drain removal
• Charge scaling on Pistols and Bowcaster
• Pull vulnerability frames increase
• Damage modifier tweaks
• TK system improvements
• Pulse shock duration increase (if toned down)
• Alt frag re-design (if damage is buffed)
• SBD base damage re-design (makes damages more reliable, now just need a good base dmg)
• Poison dart dosage reduction
  
• Ion duration nerf (if people really think it's that strong, I still think it's always been shit)
• Pulses not allowing for ammo regen for the duration of the effect (as long as the length is reduced greatly)

The rest to me are somewhat on the fence. Either values are whack or the design seems like it's opening a box of new issues we'll end up reworking to death.

I'd love for us to have max 1 more test with the linear drain scaling, otherwise just roll that back to the old system. Then we can test for a couple of weeks and push out a release.

 

[k4far]

Rocket allows to eliminate best players with ease, takes very little effort to use. It's a good suicide tool when we want to deny the kill to the enemy that worked upon catching us off guard. THIS is the definition of frustrating. I would rather be dragged on a rope connected to a jetpack across the map if that ever gets implemented for Mandalorians, lol.

 

[MuscBodypillow]

Rocket allows to eliminate best players with ease, takes very little effort to use. It's a good suicide tool when we want to deny the kill to the enemy that worked upon catching us off guard. THIS is the definition of frustrating. I would rather be dragged on a rope connected to a jetpack across the map if that ever gets implemented for Mandalorians, lol.

Yes but surprise rocket have a cue and some travel time, but when it's about surprise sniping when you have 1 or x guys hiding and just waiting for you to turn just enough, get slapped, stop blocking or swing, it is more efficient than the rocket if you can get somewhere where you wont get shot. I've even seen mandos just standing still and sniping in a hallway because enemy gunners were distracted by other targets.

 

[Tempest]

As an example case @k4far was stating that the mando rockets were OP after getting one lucky panic rocket direct hit on me up close. The following rounds I proceeded to evade every rocket with good use of Dexterity.

So you used the one gunner tool that's actually helpful for avoiding rockets? Okay. Avoid it consistently without Dexterity against someone who isn't braindead and it'll be pretty obvious. Dash is in the same realm but a lot less forgiving.

Ions are also used less because of the skew in risk/effort for reward compared to Concussions (no charge + knockdown for hitting). Ions having to charge actually makes them more fair but they're still rediculous for reasons already mentioned.

Got really one more tweak for FP drains (mostly aimed at the regen which seems to be a bit too strong). Should help a bit.

P.S. The linear scaling isn't new. The math for it is just modified. I can put a cap on close range draining as well if it feels like it's making that much of a difference (which it really is just allowing for more FP drains at really close ranges, that's all).

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

So you used the one gunner tool that's actually helpful for avoiding rockets? Okay. Avoid it consistently without Dexterity against someone who isn't braindead and it'll be pretty obvious. Dash is in the same realm but a lot less forgiving.

It was an example that in the match-up of ARC vs Mando, there were tools to mitigate the effect to a degree where it was nearly a non-issue. In similar fashion Clones have blobs to shut down rockets. Heroes have Dash, Dodge, Projectile Rifle, fast movement speed and (in the current beta) Pistol 3 to greatly shut down or evade most Mandalorian advances. Wookiees have Str3 and high HP. Solds and ETse have many lives. Jedi have Push, Speed, Sense and Jump.

A general rule of thumb: If you hear a jetpack flying at you, take as much distance as possible. Failing that, start shooting and really force the engagement to be up close where the rocket becomes harder to aim in a fatal manner and turns into a HP trade.

In very much similar fashion there are abilities, strategies and approaches that mitigate most of the impact of ion blobs. Generally this is all I've ever needed:

• Hear it coming
  
• See it coming
  
• Attempt to interrupt
  
• Evade
  
• Damage control by taking cover

You've already failed miserably if the Clone is on top of you with a fully charged Ion. Why did you let him charge it up without interrupting it?

Got really one more tweak for FP drains (mostly aimed at the regen which seems to be a bit too strong). Should help a bit.

The regen is pretty great for the comeback potential, but it does of course force us to make slow ROF weapons drain a lot per shot to mitigate regens if we want them to compete with high ROF weapons. Let's see how it behaves.

P.S. The linear scaling isn't new. The math for it is just modified. I can put a cap on close range draining as well if it feels like it's making that much of a difference (which it really is just allowing for more FP drains at really close ranges, that's all).

Linear scaling isn't new - the range at which it affects is new since it is now the norm. It used to be a threshold behaviour between outside and inside IDR to reduce the jarring feeling of FP drains increasing inside IDR.

The problem I presented about with linear scaling without caps in my previous post:
FooPlot | Online graphing calculator and function plotter
Assuming we used math where X (distance) ranges between 0 and 1, we'll have vastly different outcomes when we multiply it with 24 for example.

Even at around x/8 it's a lot of difference that we can notice especially when we tweak the value 24 up or down. We'll get less heavy variance, but even there the difference is very noticeable.
FooPlot | Online graphing calculator and function plotter

Introducing a cap at close range will essentially result in our old IDR system. Probably with cleaner and human-readable code, but the fundamentals are the same. Variables may differ, but theoretically through tweaking variables such as the range of the linear function and the bottom and top limiters, we'd be able to create a near-perfect replica of our current system. With the exception of the bottom cap not defaulting to 4 when blocking outside IDR.

The close range cap you're suggesting is a good thing as it presents us a good tool to balance out end results.

 

[Tempest]

Really the only difference between the public logic and beta logic for the caps is that they are inverted (as in, long distance now has a forced cap so the drains are always at least somewhat useful, in beta; public has it in the opposite where only short range has a cap so that the drain doesn't increase past a certain close distance). I'll throw the minimum cap in as well I guess. It's just 1 extra line of code now instead of multiples spread through different sets of math

 

[Blazer]

Well if we're talking about rockets again, let me copy and paste what I said a few months ago in my own thread:
"
-Most of all, even after they run out of ammo, health, armor, flame thrower and jetpack fuel, they can just blow themselves up in an easy way to get a free kill.

The last point is the one that pisses me off the most. "Oh I just shot this mandalorian as an ARC about 9 times with my sniper, he's at one health! Time to FINISH THE JO-" as i get blown up from a rocket undoing ALL of my work as he just kills himself and me in the process.
"

"Like I said with the rocket, It's just annoying when I'm a 1-life gunner and I spend all my ammo and resources to kill a mando and he just ALLAHU's me and I die. It's so stupidly frustrating."

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

It might be worth setting up a minimum blast distance, so firing the missile at close range would result not in the missile detonating but rather striking the floor and doing nothing. Maybe it could act as a knockback at close range so a direct hit would knock over someone & deal like 30 - 40 damage if fired at close range and detonate only it has traveled for a few seconds or a certain distance.

Alternatively have it act on a fuse system if it is fired at close range so you can still use it as a deterrent up close but it forces the enemy to either commit to rushing and killing you and probably being blown up by the 'grenade' rocket afterwards or back away and avoid the rocket before coming back in towards you, giving you time for a reprieve.

I mean that'd solve the issue of jihad mandos and cheapshot missiles when on low hp as a last resort. That being said, as an ARC main I can't really say I have an issue with Jihad Mandos because I often just dex lunge or wallrun away from any potential missile hit.

 

[Chocorope]

Alright!

So I just tested it with couple of peoples and imo drain is pretty decent as it is, force regen as well!

Jedi/Sith does have a slight edge over 1v1 situations, but that I think it's pretty natural and logic, and it's nothing unmanagable for the gunner if hes playing real good, although when gunners start to group and focus the same guy in the same time... Oh God does it gets unmanageable in a matter of seconds.

Another issue being, if Jedi/Sith pick the wrong ground to engage battle and get ambushed at a place into which you just can't escape quickly enough for counter ambush, or cover, you're pretty much dead, which again I think is fair enough.

So basically as long gunners stick and play together closely, like I think it just should be all time, it's pretty fair for both sides!

That being all said, I think knockback could be a slight little bit higher, just a slight! And if anything maybe FP drain 5/10% higher.

Edit: I too think bolts could be a slight faster, (10/15%), but that's just my personal opinion on the matter, I never play gunners so most of you guys/girls know much beter then i'll ever do

Overall... Very good! Dont ruin this.

 

[Tempest]

Hotfix out:

- Fix super push/falling damage being broken, again..
- Pull cooldown/vulnerability window timer changed from 650 to 500
- Blob functionality works again

FP drains/regen:
- Having a saber at all is ~85% FP regen while not having a saber is 100% (170ms vs 150ms ticks)
- Close distance FP drains now have a cap again (equivalent to close IDR from public)
- Blocking multiplier raised from 0.65x to 0.75x
- Running multiplier raised from 0.95x to 1.10x

Stamina:
- Stamina now only turns off with Special 1.
- Walking/Crouching don't disable sprint mode but do not allow benefit from the sprinting movement speed (and thus also allow for regeneration of stamina).

Pulses:
These are for non-SBD/deka targets
- Thrown shock duration reduced from 3.5s by to 2.8s
- Launched shock duration reduced from 2.4s to 1.7s

Alt-Frag:
- Direct hit: Increased damage from 37 to 57
- Splash: Increased damage from 15 to 42

Jedi/Sith:
- Increase FF damage reduction for jedi/sith from 20% to 30%
- Remove damage reduction for rolling getups.

 

[MuscBodypillow]

Hotfix out:

Alt-Frag:
- Direct hit: Increased from 37 to 57
- Splash: Increased from 15 to 42

What is being changed there? Are they both distance?

 

[Stassin]

- Having a saber at all is ~85% FP regen while not having a saber is 100% (170ms vs 150ms ticks)

Just a comment on this because it's a classic: servers have sv_fps 20, meaning no difference of timing below 50ms will count (so putting 170ms makes it the same as 200ms). Although perhaps FP regen is an exception to this and it will still count because i had added a fix for it specifically from openjk; i don't remember if the fix would apply in this case.

 

[Lessen]

I thought servers had sv_fps 40? Or do servers and clients have different sv_fps values and its the clients that have 40...

I remember one time when I tried a saber test, when I hosted myself (using the default Create Game menu item) then certain red swings would go clear through people at sv_fps 20, and work properly at sv_fps 40.

What is being changed there? Are they both distance?

I asked Tempest this on Discord and I believe he said it was damage. 57 damage is a shitload of damage but landing a direct alt-frag is hard so I think that's why.

 

[Zilenan91]

was in the test today and alt frags may do a little bit too much damage, and deal that damage kinda randomly. I got hit by one and got left with 2 hp as an armor 2 soldier, and as an armor 3 in a different round I got instakilled by a quick-throw alt frag slamming me into the ceiling. The knockback on them is fucking hilarious but lead to weird instakills happening that probably shouldn't be. All of this grenade stuff was on Dxun too, I can't imagine how much they'll break Deathstar in half. Jedi durability feels alright under blaster fire, and sbds are kinda insane atm unless you hardcounter them in which case they die instantly. Soldiers overall feel very very powerful.

Also fire grenades cost 10 more points than they should, they're not very good at all.

 

[Crusader]

I haven't played the open beta recently, but provided P3 plays anything like live, it could use a FP damage buff. I can see it already has received one, but I think that's on the charged shot.

 

[k4far]

#Hotfix feedback

• Drains feel very much like what we have in PUBLIC, people just keep playing on BETA server thinking it's a regular one - a good sign.
  
• Super Push is still unusable ( I managed to flip 3 different people none of them could be pushed against the wall in the actual game.)
• New alt-frag is popular? It's not being left ignored as in the previous drops.
• Fall damage seems to be working correctly again.

​

 

[vasya]

Having a saber at all is ~85% FP regen while not having a saber is 100% (170ms vs 150ms ticks)

is it like i should change to fists to increase fp regen, and turning saber on\off doesn't affect it?

Increase FF damage reduction for jedi/sith from 20% to 30%

what is FF?

 

[MuscBodypillow]

what is FF?

Friendly Fire.