Criticisms and Complaints from a New User

Discussion in 'Feedback & Gameplay' started by asmcint, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. Tempest

    Tempest coding in Wonderland Movie Battles II Team

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    Alrighty.

    I agree on the artificially inflated fight times but not on the no technical skill needed. Most of the actual depth in the system has gotten buried under stupid nuances and dumb + overly complicated mechanics (the way that swing count relates to ACM and damage modification is really uninituitive). The system is being simplified (as far as skill floor goes) and making things more straightforward in regards to underlying mechanics.

    If two attacks meet in the middle of their attack, sure. That results in a parry which is minimal damage to either side. However, if you get hit during the start/end of your swing, you are most definitely vulnerable. In particular, getting interrupted is going to (once again) be a huge damage source + punishment for sloppy timing in things to come.

    See above. Unless someone meets you in the middle of your attack EVERY swing, you're vulnerable. Doesn't matter if you're holding block or not. If you need to fight an actual experienced duelist to see how wrong you are on this then I can demonstrate whenever you're free.

    No timing...you're making very big claims that have the complete opposite actual details to how things work. PB doesn't have timing per se but disarming 100% is based entirely on timing and other factors.

    I'm going to assume you're referring to how people can spam/flail a lot currently which is another thing being rectified.

    It's incredibly easy to see coming and then backwack. There's no turning to block if you're dead.

    A lot of the timing and punishment involved with it has gotten phased "out" (slightly) as I said above. I am bringing a lot of it back though.

    How is swingblock a glitch/bug? What circumstances/behavior makes you think that's the case?

    You mention the base game and then act surprised/comment on how things have changed when the inputs are exactly the same for those special moves as they are in the base game. For non-saber things, the only thing that isn't (off the top of my head) two buttons or less is the flying kick you can do in melee.

    I actually prefer it this way. I'd rather be able to crouch on demand without worry about rolling than having to specifically stand still -> crouch -> move every single time. Trying to use Speed where it uses the default JKA behavior reminds me of how annoying that gets.

    I've already touched on this for sabering a couple times now. Personally, I don't think you can play this for a week or less and be able to fairly give any accurate statement regarding its depth (especially in generic pub play where most people treat it like TDM). Feel free to counter this statement and I'll expand on it.

    I'd like to actually observe you playing and see if you're suddenly amazing/have mastered everything in MB2 as a new player. That'd be a first.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  2. Jeob

    Jeob

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    You can find skill in any game, how do you think the winner is decided in mb2, randomly? Or people here are using fake, stupid skills?
    I recalled my basejka memories and laughed at this: "Each swing has its own advantages and flaws" I remember as if everyone was using only the D slash with red and A-D or SA-WD with staff/dual. Sure red "A" swing has some kind of advantage...still you're better off using anything else. I also remember that blue and yellow were basically useless against staff/dual. So if you wanted to use single, then you had to use red, except for a single vs single fight (which was the best in my opinion).

    Now I don't really want to make this basejka vs mb2, I've really enjoyed basejka fighting too, and I enjoy mb2 as well and having played both system a lot, I'd say each has its' advantages and drawbacks. I feel there's much more freedom in mb2's duelling. You can fight staff/dual with blue and have a real chance to win, and here the blocking system encourages you to use all 7 swings, meanwhile in basejka most of the time you only used 2-4. Also here yellow DFA and red DFA can be useful, unlike in base. Now you can say, so what? These don't make the system better, and I'll let you believe that, these were just positive things I noted for myself when I started mb2. In the end you can call each system good or bad, you can find depth in each system, it's entirely up to you. But you could certainly downgrade basejka's fightning system as well. Also don't forget as others before me said, sabering is just a small part here.

    One more: you seem to be fond of "punishing", there are certainly punishes in mb2 just like in every game, I think you just miss the lethal punishment of base, how you could end a fight in 1 swing really often. Basically every swing is a punishment here if you don't perfect block it or dodge it (the punishment is that you lose bp), punishments in a duel here aren't that extreme, except if you get disarmed and slashed down, punishments add up during the fight and eventually causes you to lose.
    I just thought, punishing in basejka for a newb is actually much harder than here. You just strafe jump and a newb will never catch you, you decide when the two of you can even engage. I could just slash around wildly, the newb would never catch me let alone punish me for anything I do.
     
  3. Ryncage

    Ryncage

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    As a new player myself theres a lot to be said about saber mechanics and the system as a whole.

    The library is full of outdated information, and neglects to mention core mechanics outright.

    the lack of feedback makes the learning curve excessively and needlessly steep. As a gunner, when cut down by a saber: i have no clue how close i was or wasn't to winning that engagment.
    The only thing i like about duel mode is that you get some small level of feedback, but the culture surrounding the mode is rather dull and makes for a boring experience. Not to mention, that all the 1v1 experts confine themselves to this mode, and you can walk away from a fight having learned nothing about the systems in place.

    The Game does a poor job of conveying your preformances in a fight. a parry or pblock, scored a hit or took one. You have so much that you need to constantly be aware of, its easy to miss the half second flickers of color in your crosshair, and that only compounds on the feeling of dumbfoundedness upon being defeated by another Saberist.

    You would never have any way of knowing or understanding how or why you lose in a duel outside of someone explaining it to you, hidden mechanics and all.

    The system is deep for all the wrong reasons. Sure, its fun when you finally manage to wrap your head around things, but the utter lack of polish kills it, and i can understand how it just feels and looks awful at face value.

    And thats ignoring the balance issues.
     
  4. SK55555555555555555

    SK55555555555555555 EU Official Server Admin Internal Beta Team

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    As long as you know how the jedi vs gunner system works, you will be able to somewhat understand how close to winning you were.

    It all comes down to force points, if you were cut down by a jedi confidently, you can assume that he was quite full on fp. If he started running at some point, you can assume that he was low on fp. When you start damaging a jedi you can easily see that by the blaster fire actually hitting the jedi and by the loud noices when getting hurt.

    Flinch is also something you should familiarize yourself with. Helpful tip: you do more fp damage to a jedi when hes running rather than holding block.

    Usually the "1v1 experts" will gladly assist you in telling you what you did wrong and even teach you. Once you understand the "flow" of dueling which is basically that you need to manage your own and your opponents acm, keeping track of everything becomes much easier.

    Red flash on your crosshair means that you damaged your opponent, green flash means that you perfect blocked. No flash means that he perfect blocked you or that you parried. Quite simple to grasp once you get the hang of things.

    I do agree with you that the library should be updated but all that outdated information can be found updated on the forums.
     
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  5. Ryncage

    Ryncage

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    "Somewhat" and "assumptions" arent helpful to new players. Solid information is. Seeing or knowing the enemies FP post-death in any kind of log would be good feedback. If jedi are constantly cutting you down on 70fp, then you can 'assume' about how much improvement you need.

    The players shouldnt be responsible for filling you in on what you did or didnt do correctly, is my point. The game can and should just as easily accomplish this with some tweaks.

    The crosshair flashes should last longer or be adjustable entirely via options, ACM shouldnt be hidden behind a vague glow, but a solid number. [simplehud is bad for its own reasons too.]
    Not every player is going to go on a forum quest to find all the answers, and they shouldnt have too. It turns understanding and improving at the game into a chore, and that can and does turn people away.

    Im not saying / posting these things as someone who needs help. But as areas the game can and should be improved in my opinion.
     
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  6. SK55555555555555555

    SK55555555555555555 EU Official Server Admin Internal Beta Team

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    You have a fair point and most of these things could be fixed by a simple tutorial and/or by updating the library. Although even when outdated, the library still serves a valuable purpose of giving information on the game mechanics (some out dated and some up to date).

    A helpful addition would indeed be adding a force point counter to the deathlog similiar to what duel mode has with bp

    And you are right, players arent obliged to give you feedback or to fill you in on what you did wrong but they still do it nontheless because they know the game can be tough to learn.

    To me, going through the forums didnt feel like a chore, instead i found it intriguing learning all the different mechanics. But thats just me.
     
  7. Ryncage

    Ryncage

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    Forum questing wasnt a big deal to me either, but only because the small taste i got was fun enough to inspire me to find how to get better.

    But I know there are people out there who would drop the game because of the neccesity of needing to do out-of-game research, and every would-be player is worth trying to keep, right?

    In any event, it could be worse all things considered, and im sure devs have bigger priorities atm.
     
  8. Desu ^^

    Desu ^^

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    Idk how i typed it inside a quote but yea xD
     
  9. Ryncage

    Ryncage

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    a very close minded perspective to have.
    I'd also argue about the level of depth you think dota has, but thats beside the point.

    Are you more or less motivated to play me in any game if i tell you to go elsewhere to discover all of the rules?

    Does the value of your playership rest in your willingness to oblidge? I disagree.

    A larger playerbase offers more player choice, and more variety. Its never a bad thing, and getting in the way of that intentionally or otherwise is harmful to the games future.
     
  10. Desu ^^

    Desu ^^

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    I think you miss my point, the game needs that kind of depth that requires you to oblidge and spend a lot of time on it. And saying Dota has not much depth is just silly, despite having 900h ingame i still dont understand most of the mechanics but it doesnt mean i cant enjoy playing it.
    The same goes with MB you dont need to spend ages playing to have fun and if you want to get good at it you must understand all the mechanics. You might say it takes a lot of time to do so but thats a good thing because if you could understand everything in 1 week you would get bored super fast, and the way it is makes you able to play all the time and still discover new things.
     
  11. Ryncage

    Ryncage

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    You're confused.
    Keeping information obscure, hidden, and away from players isn't depth.

    Thats entirely subjective and a moot point. The game doesnt lack feedback or keep crucial mechanical information from you like mb2 does. Moreover, other individuals have spent far less time playing and have a better understanding of the game than you do. I agree there is depth to the game. How much there is, is your opinion.

    For the 3rd time, the issue i have isnt with the complexity of the games mechanics, but the availability of the tools to understand said systems from within the game. Requiring an individual to use 3rd party means to understand core mechanics in your game is bad design that drives away players.

    If you are trying to say that being required to use a forum to understand rules for a given system is good design, then we simply disagree and there is nothing more to discuss.
     
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  12. {Δ} Achilles

    {Δ} Achilles Internal Beta Team

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    Come fight me, count how many times you win, then tell me that there isn't technical skill.

    If anything lightsaber combat requires too damned much technical skill in many aspects.

    Although I do agree that fight times take too long.



    I do see where you're coming from though, I was in the same boat when I first started this game. It does a shitty job of explaining itself to you, and it literally takes *years* to learn all that there is to offer, even with guidance from top tier duelists. Basically, all I can say is you need to find someone really good at the dueling system to explain it to you. It really is quite skill-based, for the most part. Though at the highest level it gets a bit weird.
     
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  13. Knob_Jones

    Knob_Jones

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    This part is just straight up wrong, in my opinion. My whole play style when it comes to duels is adapting to how my opponent is fighting and punishing their mistakes. Draining their BP from a mistake they make is punishing them. They don't block a slap? Punished. They miss a swing? Punished. They try jumping or running? Punished. Going off what you said I feel like your idea of punishing is getting an immediate kill off someone's mistake. This can happen, but pretty rarely. Like if they try throwing a saber or try some kind of force move in your face. But again, pretty rare from what i've seen.

    While I do agree with you to some degree on this, in my experience so far in dueling special moves are really easy to get out of the way of and not really worth doing. I haven't played JKA in some time now, but the ways to execute these moves is the same in that game from what I remember. I could be wrong about that.

    This doesn't seem like a complaint. It honestly comes across as, "I don't understand the mechanics after day 1, this game sucks!" Talk to people on dueling servers for tips and go read up on the mechanics of the game. This is not a game you're going to get good at and fully understand after day 1. Years ago when I would play JKA, it wasn't like that. You didn't have to read up on mechanics and actually practice to do well. In this game you do. If you play a game like League of Legends for the 1st time and get shit stomped, does it mean the game sucks? No. It means you just don't understand the mechanics. Not comparing this game to the gameplay of LoL, just the first one that came to mind with heavy mechanics. Once you start the get a grip on how things work in this game, you'll gain a better appreciation for it. Go over this guide. [Guide] The Dueling Compendium
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  14. President Bossk

    President Bossk

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    But wavedashing is the bomb.
     
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  15. Satin

    Satin

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    This is literally the best advice you should take, find a good duelist, or join a clan and find one there, ask for tips or training, and buckle up and knock your head against the wall as you learn the game and it's quirks. Once you do, it gets a lot more fun.
     
  16. Mr Happy Fridge

    Mr Happy Fridge Donator

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    I'm also relatively new (November 2017) And I'm thoroughly enjoying the game, yes there is a learning curve and your first games can be seriously demotivating as you will die A LOT.
    Bare in mind this is a team based objective game, the game is more enjoyable and fun whilst playing as a team, try Open mode and Full Authentic. If you're not liking the saber combat try playing as a gunner? Try every class and find what you prefer, experiment with all the abilities available.
    Please experience this game a few more hours and give it a chance.

    It's honestly hard to find someone in game who won't offer you help, the majority of players are talkative and helpful. The more you play the more you'll see familiar players and pick up more game mechanics.
    Jump on a server make some friends, learn together or have a more experienced person help you, many people will be inclined to do so.

    P.S Please also post more critique once you have played more of the mod, if you do of course:)
     
  17. SneakDissing

    SneakDissing

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    lol.
     
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  18. noel

    noel

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    Even though I love this mod and I've spent hundreds of hours playing duel mode and spent fucking ages writing/recording to make a guide specifically to try and make the game less frightening to new people, I actually agree with you 100%.

    When i first started playing i played for about 30 mins, joined a clan and got told to hit a dummy on mb2_duel_training to learn how to swingblock. I then got bored closed the game and didnt reopen it for a month or two.

    The reason you see the system as without depth is both because of a lack of experience and because it isn't intuitive, I mean realistically comparing MB2's system with Warband, For Honor etc, they're all so much more intuitive than what we have.

    I think half of the problem comes from a lack of focus being put on the simplest of mechanics. The MB2 saber system could work with the following features ALONE:
    • Perfect blocking
    • Swingblocking
    • Slapping
    • Block points
    • Attacking/comboing
    But, we also have:
    • ACM (the biggest problem imo)
    • Parrying
    • Mblocking
    • Mblock countering
    • Perfect parrying
    • Half swinging
    • Various exploits/techniques such as yaw, shadowswing etc.
    None of which are really 'core' to MBII's system (in that they wouldn't break the system if they were removed.)

    IMO, there needs to be a far greater focus on swingblock, pb, slapping, bp and attacking because they are physical things which you can see and pick up on easily (arguably besides swingblock which should possibly be removed and have run=u get slapped, walk=u dont get slapped but that would make spamming way easier so idk).

    There should be less focus on ACM, Mblock etc, a new player is never going to think 'Oh so that's what ACM is!' after a day of playing without instruction. Getting rid of all of this useless jargon and defunct features which require explanation and can't just be picked up easily by new people would make this mod a lot more popular imo.

    And as much as I love Tempest, we're now getting an even bigger focus on ACM and ANOTHER invisible/unintuitive mechanic in the form of Neutral Block as showcased in the most recent sabering beta.

    I'd dumb it down a bit and leave the mod with a system which rewards masterful ability with a simple set of tools. Even things like Pb counter were at least fairly obvious to work out, unlike mbcounter, ACM and NB
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  19. A Potato

    A Potato

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    Can this get locked now?
     
  20. Blazer

    Blazer

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    not yet i still havent throw in my coin.

    I've been playing for a few years now and I don't touch saberists. I rarely play them because there's so much stupid bullshit that goes on in that world that I don't even want to touch it. I love this game but I don't think I will ever try to get good with sabers because I don't play this game to make it a chore and train and force myself to get good, that's not what games are about, they are for fun.

    For example: When you play 500 hours of gunner, from the first hour, you still get kills, you still have fun, its easy to play, easy to learn, you can literally kill one of the best players as a noob gunner, and it works.
    For example: When you play 500 grinding bullshit hours of sabers, from the first hour you get fk'd over, you hate it, its not easy to play, it takes way too long to even learn, it doesn't work half the time, you get shit on by pros who have spent decades playing the game.
     

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