Big problem of Duelling

[Adélaïde]

Hello. In my opinion, currently (v1.5.3), we have a big problem with excessive movement in Duelling system. A lot of people now use the tactic of landing swings, while avoiding being hit by running, and, it is much easier to do this than to counter.

This problem could be solved, for example, by making attacker lose certain amount of Blocking Points, if the swing is being performed during run or by adding timer of BP damage multiplier, which would, in few seconds, smoothly increase damage back from about x0.65 to normal value after switching from running to walking. I would not want MBII to turn into another JKA+, and i doubt someone else would. What do you think about it?

 

[PuNk]

It's the single biggest "What the fuck was this about?" of the update. No one asked for it, no one complained about it, no one even suggested it, yet somehow we got this:

• Change: Separate modifiers intended for swingblocking/running/walking/other stuff all normalized to 1.0x

I kind of get what Tempest was trying to go for with it compared to the opposite situation that we had in 1.5.2 , but in my opinion it has no place in a patch that was otherwise supposed to be just a hotfix for a certain abuseable mechanic that were the instant counters.
I still think the fix to how trade offs work and increased focus on parrying is a step in the right direction, but heavily encourageing a certain annoying playstyle that's obviously being referred to in the change listed above is not.

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

t's the single biggest "What the fuck was this about?" of the update.

 

[cannonfodder]

Supposedly in a future saber patch, there should be a mechanic where if you parry someone while they have 0 bp, it should disarm them, so hopefully, that'll remove the hit and run tactic everyone does when they get low on BP

 

[Adélaïde]

that'll remove the hit and run tactic everyone does when they get low on BP

The problem is, most do it when they are not low on BP.

 

[SeV]

It's the single biggest "What the fuck was this about?" of the update. No one asked for it, no one complained about it, no one even suggested it, yet somehow we got this:

• Change: Separate modifiers intended for swingblocking/running/walking/other stuff all normalized to 1.0x

I kind of get what Tempest was trying to go for with it compared to the opposite situation that we had in 1.5.2 , but in my opinion it has no place in a patch that was otherwise supposed to be just a hotfix for a certain abuseable mechanic that were the instant counters.
I still think the fix to how trade offs work and increased focus on parrying is a step in the right direction, but heavily encourageing a certain annoying playstyle that's obviously being referred to in the change listed above is not.

IIRC, what that means is that when you run, you deal 1.0x damage instead of increased damage, discouraging/weakening runhitting. There was also a multiplier on holding walk to strengthen your attack damage a little bit. Totally invisible and you just had to know about it. This has nothing to do with why runhitting is powerful.

The basic problem is ACM and the fact that dodging a swing is better and far easier than PBing a swing. You will need to redesign the system somewhat to overcome it. Possible solutions to a runhit heavy system include going back to a counter-heavy design, reintroducing nudge and making it possible to attack back and forth more. However, nudge directly contradicts the current aimed PB design and frankly, so does insta counters.

You could artificially cripple footwork, but that is just retarded. It is much better to design a system from teh ground up that makes it possible to chase after runners (force focus much faster on runners, esp side and back aim, for pull) and also to make it so that hitting and running to save up ACM does not put the person who is hit in a worse position than the one hitting and running. In other words, hitting and running should not confer unto you some special, invisible power sauce that gives you an advantage. Essentially, a purely BP based system is far better than an ACM system when it comes to dealing with runhitting, especially if you also implement complementary changes such as dealing with 0 BP parry spam in some way or another, like implementing a stagger on low bp parries. There are also other ideas beside this.

I haven't played sabering much in a very long time because I find the basic aimed PB system boring. In any case, when I played 1.5.3 the first few days it released, I did encounter some people who were very runhappy. The problem is that it's much easier to run away than to chase, and additionally, much more risky to chase in case they turn around and hit you while you are running. The solution to this would be force focus tuned properly and maybe some sort of forward momentum advantage compared to strafing/backpedalling. But messing with movement speed like that has a risk of fucking up footwork, and you should indeed be able to dodge poorly aimed attacks with movement. The big problem is how advantageous it is to just run like a faggot. I don't enjoy that playstyle at all and it's something contingent upon ACM and aimed PB the way it is currently implemented.

Runhitting should be in the game as a tactic and a playstyle, but you shouldn't be able to get an unfair advantage by hitting someone a few times and then running away until you have enough ACM to just trade like a noob and come out on top. Atm the whole system is designed around yellow and playing the aimed PB mini-game. It isn't natural and does not fit open mode very well. In any case, I think that whilst it is an annoyance for sure, in 1.5.3 you can git gud and handle most all runhitters and the current situation could've been remedied if there was no more ACM and force focus was much quicker on pull, esp if they were moving or u aimed at their sides/back.

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

IIRC, what that means is that when you run, you deal 1.0x damage instead of increased damage, discouraging/weakening runhitting. There was also a multiplier on holding walk to strengthen your attack damage a little bit. Totally invisible and you just had to know about it. This has nothing to do with why runhitting is powerful.

The basic problem is ACM and the fact that dodging a swing is better and far easier than PBing a swing. You will need to redesign the system somewhat to overcome it. Possible solutions to a runhit heavy system include going back to a counter-heavy design, reintroducing nudge and making it possible to attack back and forth more. However, nudge directly contradicts the current aimed PB design and frankly, so does insta counters.

You could artificially cripple footwork, but that is just retarded. It is much better to design a system from teh ground up that makes it possible to chase after runners (force focus much faster on runners, esp side and back aim, for pull) and also to make it so that hitting and running to save up ACM does not put the person who is hit in a worse position than the one hitting and running. In other words, hitting and running should not confer unto you some special, invisible power sauce that gives you an advantage. Essentially, a purely BP based system is far better than an ACM system when it comes to dealing with runhitting, especially if you also implement complementary changes such as dealing with 0 BP parry spam in some way or another, like implementing a stagger on low bp parries. There are also other ideas beside this.

I haven't played sabering much in a very long time because I find the basic aimed PB system boring. In any case, when I played 1.5.3 the first few days it released, I did encounter some people who were very runhappy. The problem is that it's much easier to run away than to chase, and additionally, much more risky to chase in case they turn around and hit you while you are running. The solution to this would be force focus tuned properly and maybe some sort of forward momentum advantage compared to strafing/backpedalling. But messing with movement speed like that has a risk of fucking up footwork, and you should indeed be able to dodge poorly aimed attacks with movement. The big problem is how advantageous it is to just run like a faggot. I don't enjoy that playstyle at all and it's something contingent upon ACM and aimed PB the way it is currently implemented.

Runhitting should be in the game as a tactic and a playstyle, but you shouldn't be able to get an unfair advantage by hitting someone a few times and then running away until you have enough ACM to just trade like a noob and come out on top. Atm the whole system is designed around yellow and playing the aimed PB mini-game. It isn't natural and does not fit open mode very well. In any case, I think that whilst it is an annoyance for sure, in 1.5.3 you can git gud and handle most all runhitters and the current situation could've been remedied if there was no more ACM and force focus was much quicker on pull, esp if they were moving or u aimed at their sides/back.

Additionally, if you slap someone whilst running, their character flies 5 meters away giving them enough time to do a fast getup before you land a single hit.

 

[LanceOfLonginus]

extra movement is cooler than people standing still looking into the different quadrants for pblocks and counter swings. there are also clear counters to this strategy in the massive drains you receive while doing anything but standing and blocking, just practice.

 

[cannonfodder]

extra movement is cooler than people standing still looking into the different quadrants for pblocks and counter swings. there are also clear counters to this strategy in the massive drains you receive while doing anything but standing and blocking, just practice.

problem with extra drain is if they are constantly swinging, it can be difficult to get anything other than a parry, and parries will take all that extra damage and make it do nothing

 

[Adélaïde]

extra movement is cooler than people standing still looking into the different quadrants for pblocks and counter swings.

This is exactly the problem. For some reason, instead of duelling, using all numerous techniques, current patches allow you to just hit and run away, as you would do because there is no other options in JKA, and get advantage over any other style of fighting. For some reason PB exists, just as many other mechanics, definitely not for overuse of one technique, which is way too rewarding in comparison to countering it.

 

[AaronAaron]

Just refuse to duel the retards who rely on it

mace ma faaken dun us sus

 

[Karus]

Mind games man, mind games
It's easy to counter faggots

 

[Townsend]

Mind games man, mind games
It's easy to counter faggots

not really a mind game just running off

 

[Archiiv]

I like running in duel

Spoiler

 

[noel]

we've had this discussion a million times

game isn't fun if you can't run
game isn't fun if you can run

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

@Stassin @Tempest

 

[Karus]

not really a mind game just running off

I'm kind of pissed off that I need to explain this.
It's mind games in the sense that, if the guy is constantly running after every 4 hits, you have to counter his final swing and chase him down with your own combo.
However, if he is only running away at certain times, this can become a problem, since he can use shit like slap, kick etc. to fuck your day over if you decide to chase.
This, to me, justifies the way shadowswinging/running works currently, as it can be countered, but can also be used as a very valid tactic to deceive your opponent.
-> Take extra damage whilst running also.
Yeah, the running is excessive, and it's annoying, but it's not complete horseshit like instas were.
(The reason I compare it to instas is because of the backlash this patch has received in regards to shadowswinging being untolerable).
Also, many people I have spoken to, who complain about things like running & SS, actually have no idea what the fuck they're doing.
It's a learning process everytime a new patch comes out; I feel like less and less people are willing to relearn mechanics the more they play.
If it CAN be countered, it's most likely not broken, you're just bad.
Where the fuck are the posts about dual sabers? Now THAT shit is broken.
Also, if SS/running/whatever is THAT fucking strong, why aren't good duelists abusing it?
From what I've seen, most people who can PB and counter decently enough to not get wiped out within 5 combos, tend to only resort to running when they NEED it.
It's only shit tiers who constantly run, and again, shit tiers are easy to kill.
That being said, I understand most people's frustration with the running, as it is an easy thing to fallback on and doesn't require much skill to abuse.
However, most people who abuse this tactic do not realise it can be countered, and, because of that, will not know what to do if their opponent knows how to do so.

 

[Townsend]

I'm kind of pissed off that I need to explain this.
It's mind games in the sense that, if the guy is constantly running after every 4 hits, you have to counter his final swing and chase him down with your own combo.
However, if he is only running away at certain times, this can become a problem, since he can use shit like slap, kick etc. to fuck your day over if you decide to chase.
This, to me, justifies the way shadowswinging/running works currently, as it can be countered, but can also be used as a very valid tactic to deceive your opponent.
-> Take extra damage whilst running also.
Yeah, the running is excessive, and it's annoying, but it's not complete horseshit like instas were.
(The reason I compare it to instas is because of the backlash this patch has received in regards to shadowswinging being untolerable).
Also, many people I have spoken to, who complain about things like running & SS, actually have no idea what the fuck they're doing.
It's a learning process everytime a new patch comes out; I feel like less and less people are willing to relearn mechanics the more they play.
If it CAN be countered, it's most likely not broken, you're just bad.
Where the fuck are the posts about dual sabers? Now THAT shit is broken.
Also, if SS/running/whatever is THAT fucking strong, why aren't good duelists abusing it?
From what I've seen, most people who can PB and counter decently enough to not get wiped out within 5 combos, tend to only resort to running when they NEED it.
It's only shit tiers who constantly run, and again, shit tiers are easy to kill.
That being said, I understand most people's frustration with the running, as it is an easy thing to fallback on and doesn't require much skill to abuse.
However, most people who abuse this tactic do not realise it can be countered, and, because of that, will not know what to do if their opponent knows how to do so.

never said they weren't easy to kill,it's still just annoying that they run off and it isn't fun,simple as.They do basic patterns but without atleast PBC it's not exactly like you can just hit them after every combo

 

[RenegadeGaming]

Realize that the devs traded one problem for another problem. I respectfully disagree that instas were completely impossible to counter, its called fighting fire with fire. Also, that there was no pblock cooldown like there was in 1.4 (EX: Not being able to pb on getup), I prefer last patch rather than this because you are not able to counter excessive running against another skillful duelist, as they WILL know what you are trying to do, and all they have to do is quickly change their gameplan, and it doesn't have to be a kick, they could just run once to regain bp, and just grind you for ACM thus obliterating you with a metric ton of bp under their belt, which only exaggerates ones supposed skill level compared to the opponent. By no means was last patch any good either because all you had to do was tank hits and abuse a defensive playstyle, and the attacker was punished. However, like I mentioned above that counters were a very viable way of stopping someone from running without at least taking one counter swing of bp damage which did ALOT to their bp since they had let go of their block.

My only personal problem however is the new counter timing, there are people who have already adapted to the new counter timing, but there others like myself who have abandoned or who are considering abandoning counters from their playstyle completely, leaving them in a sort of "playstyle crisis" because they cannot formulate another efficient strategy to counter a user who marathon runs excessively other than to just copy their opponent and do the same thing, but this will only drag out the duel longer, and the person who imitates the running abuser will only lose in the end, or they will never have a winning chance. Unfortunately, I do not have a viable solution to be considered as a fix but I do really hope that this absurd patch will be replaced by something with a more reliable system instead of something that can just happen through only some skill and a lot of luck.

 

[Hessu]

Realize that the devs traded one problem for another problem. I respectfully disagree that instas were completely impossible to counter, its called fighting fire with fire. Also, that there was no pblock cooldown like there was in 1.4 (EX: Not being able to pb on getup), I prefer last patch rather than this because you are not able to counter excessive running against another skillful duelist, as they WILL know what you are trying to do, and all they have to do is quickly change their gameplan, and it doesn't have to be a kick, they could just run once to regain bp, and just grind you for ACM thus obliterating you with a metric ton of bp under their belt, which only exaggerates ones supposed skill level compared to the opponent. By no means was last patch any good either because all you had to do was tank hits and abuse a defensive playstyle, and the attacker was punished. However, like I mentioned above that counters were a very viable way of stopping someone from running without at least taking one counter swing of bp damage which did ALOT to their bp since they had let go of their block.

My only personal problem however is the new counter timing, there are people who have already adapted to the new counter timing, but there others like myself who have abandoned or who are considering abandoning counters from their playstyle completely, leaving them in a sort of "playstyle crisis" because they cannot formulate another efficient strategy to counter a user who marathon runs excessively other than to just copy their opponent and do the same thing, but this will only drag out the duel longer, and the person who imitates the running abuser will only lose in the end, or they will never have a winning chance. Unfortunately, I do not have a viable solution to be considered as a fix but I do really hope that this absurd patch will be replaced by something with a more reliable system instead of something that can just happen through only some skill and a lot of luck.

How can you counter something that hits you instantly and eats a shitload of your bp away? Unless you get a lucky pb. You said fighting fire with fire and that would mean everyone would just abuse a very broken mechanic... nothing skillful about that. The counter timing isnt really new either, its the same as in 1.4.5