Are devs overcomplicating the saber system?

[{Δ} Achilles]

I enjoyed 1.3, and I have always advocated that the only thing wrong with 1.3 were the way the styles were handled themselves (as well as swingblock lending to spammy fights), and only a couple of styles stood out (Cyan/Blue mostly, and everyone whined about Cyan, despite it being easily countered by good players)

I can see a need for changing the system somewhat, but I never wanted to change it totally. We had a stable system on 1.3, and I didn't see a need to completely redesign it when we could just perfect what already worked.

However, Tempest has already put in a lot of work into this new saber system, and I intend to support him as long as he makes *good* changes. I speak my mind fully and freely, so I do not sugar coat stupid ideas as something other than what they are. Was against the block system change, but I will not judge it until I am witness to the complete package.

Public chaining looks bad in general (mainly cause of instant/teleporty swinging/lack of animations)

I agree, but that is partially because of the weird idea that the devs have regarding swings being blocked causing a 'bounce' back, which is rather dumb, and looks dumb.

It's kind of dull in regards to actually feeling/looking like you're dueling if people are just mashing super fast swings back and forth (IMO)

Depends sort of on the style, and the mechanics in use, but I tend to agree.

Being able to read fast or slightly slowed down chain speeds doesn't make you a good duelist. Having the capacity to understand what to do as far as reacting to the chaining and being able to execute it is.

Depends on what you mean by 'read', if you still think prediction is a skill, then you need to rethink this stance. Though, keep in mind, knowledge itself has the lowest skill floor. Knowing what to do in situations to win is easy, but what makes highly skilled players is their reaction times, judgement, and dedication to practicing such methodology.

Anything past the first swing in public builds is almost irrelevant when it comes to skill from either the attacking or defending perspective. If the swing is too fast to possibly read/react to in any reasonable manner, that should be a big red flag.

1.3 had a good answer to that issue, where same-horizontal side swings caused a spin. You could not do WA->SA, or SA->WA, or WA->A etc... without spinning. It meant that when an opponent was attacking you with a swing, he was left with only 3 options at any one time, either WA->WD, or WA->SD, or WA->W. This made the fast swings a still relatively skillful environment, because you could read their swings by looking at their footwork, setup, and other tells. 1.3 also heavily depended upon timing of half swings that could only come from one side on most styles (A), and counter swings. These things actually produced a very skillful and fun environment, and although it wasn't perfect, it didn't merit the retarded leap from 1.3 to 1.4.

 

[DaloLorn]

Hmmm, you can quite visibly see a pretty even divide between two different 'schools' of sabering emerging from the poll answers - one side has people like SeV, Kas, Aaron and me (most notably SeV), the other has people like Achilles, LoU or Aizen. I wonder what the difference is...

(Also, yay, I'm the tiebreaker! )

 

[Rosh+]

If Tempest has his way with it, yes. But if you are asking about the move from the old saber system to the current one, the answer is no. If anything, the saber system has gotten less complicated compared to back then.

 

[hleV]

These 1.3 newbs don't know the awesomeness that was V0.1.4, or hell, even V1 was alright. As long as you had enough experience, you could just sit back, relax, and let muscle memory do things for you. Not that complicated eh? That's what I liked about it and what I dislike about the changes that followed. Now you have to stress yourself over every pixel on the screen in order to properly PB, parry and whatnot. Among other things. It wouldn't be a bad thing in a competetive game with stats/leaderboards/etc., but MB2 is not like that. It used to be fun, but then it no longer was.

 

[Savage (Ranar)]

These 1.3 newbs don't know the awesomeness that was V0.1.4, or hell, even V1 was alright. As long as you had enough experience, you could just sit back, relax, and let muscle memory do things for you. Not that complicated eh? That's what I liked about it and what I dislike about the changes that followed. Now you have to stress yourself over every pixel on the screen in order to properly PB, parry and whatnot. Among other things. It wouldn't be a bad thing in a competetive game with stats/leaderboards/etc., but MB2 is not like that. It used to be fun, but then it no longer was.

"These 1.3 newbs" < This comment was not necessary. Please keep respect while commenting on this thread or do not comment at all. Thank you.

 

[SeV]

"These 1.3 newbs" < This comment was not necessary. Please keep respect while commenting on this thread or do not comment at all. Thank you.

Afaik 1.3 gave rise to some extremely skilled duelists, so saying newbs is probably wrong. I do think however, that those starting in later builds do not share the same understanding of the saber system as oldfag duelists who have played through and adapted to many good and bad changes over the years. I think there is a vaster font of experience to draw on when making a good saber system from these players than from 1.3 players like Achilles, but I don't think that this is any reason to dismiss their suggestions though.

With stassin, 1.3 and aimed PB we saw the beginning of a new era in dueling. Many oldfags miss certain aspects and feelings from before that time and I think they are for the most part justified in missing them, since some parts just felt better to play even if something like 1.3 and aimed PB is an objective improvement a feeling was lost. One part of tempests struggle is to attempt to join two eras of sabering into one and revive the feels from the good old systems and combine it with the sensibility of post 1.3 systems with aimed PB and polished mechanics. Not an easy task, and not a task that can be done with simplicity. Some amount of complication is inevitable and probably desirable in the pursuit of a superior saber system.

 

[hleV]

"These 1.3 newbs" < This comment was not necessary.

Yes it was. 1.3 newbs need to know their place.

You can call me V0 newb, as I haven't experienced the supposed awesomeness of beta builds.

 

[LoU]

Yes it was. 1.3 newbs need to know their place.

You can call me V0 newb, as I haven't experienced the supposed awesomeness of beta builds.

You would love b19/rc1/rcx-beforestagger/

 

[AaronAaron]

Yes it was. 1.3 newbs need to know their place.

pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

everyone after 1.3 is a noob regardless of skill. Even if you're the best, you could never beat an old player in their PRIME

 

[SeV]

Yes it was. 1.3 newbs need to know their place.

You can call me V0 newb, as I haven't experienced the supposed awesomeness of beta builds.

You would love b19/rc1/rcx-beforestagger/

B19. Never again. x.x

 

[Vizino]

imo if its not what it is, it kinda reminds me of just base jka, and the added complexity of it kinda adds for like truly mastering a style

 

[SK5]

MB2 in a nutshell

Introduce something new: Old players whine because they think the mod should not evolve and they wanna stay pro by not playing.
Nerf op stuff: Noobs start whining because they thought they actually were decent players.

 

[Sammy]

people will still find a way to like dueling. you say you won't but you will

also: remove cyan, purple, dualies, staff kthx

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

You would love b19/rc1/rcx-beforestagger/

B19 was shit.
I was a top duelist in that horrid build and you want to know the irony?
The hud ate my fps so I had it disabled and played blind that entire build. Using just audio and instinct to win 90% of duels.

No hudfiles back then.

 

[Spock]

Live long and prosper

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Can I eat him?

 

[hleV]

B19 was shit.
I was a top duelist in that horrid build and you want to know the irony?
The hud ate my fps so I had it disabled and played blind that entire build. Using just audio and instinct to win 90% of duels.

No hudfiles back then.

Perhaps you won 90% duels because others haven't had their HUD disabled and thus had their FPS eaten? xD

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Huh.

Never thought of that. Nah, my pc sucked.
Even the one I upgraded to sucks.

Waiting for a part to arrive so I can play again.
Who knew discboards were so fragile?

Like crackerlike.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Complexity is fine. It just needs to be done correctly.

The goals for the system changes are good. The changes need to be tested in practice and observed whether they reach these goals.

I've written long and drawn-out posts on this regard and even given my input to shape previous overhauls. Most successful of which I felt was RC1. Back then we largely just grinded the animation behaviour to be as fluid as possible with very little care about the finer details.

Then a move away from this behaviour in RC2 kind of destabilized everything. We almost got RC1 back in v0 and got even closer with 1.3, but the changes to perfectblocking at least to me feel as if they're just bringing in a bit too much complexity compared to what a human can ideally do.

I think perfectblocking should occur if you have your crosshair on the opponent. To counterbalance the ease of perfectblock, ramp up the BP damage. The system would be simple to get a grasp of, but hard to master. It would suit Open mode's play far better by making fights quicker. However, it would also make fights between two confident duelists very drawn out and appealing.

 

[SeV]

Complexity is fine. It just needs to be done correctly.

The goals for the system changes are good. The changes need to be tested in practice and observed whether they reach these goals.

I've written long and drawn-out posts on this regard and even given my input to shape previous overhauls. Most successful of which I felt was RC1. Back then we largely just grinded the animation behaviour to be as fluid as possible with very little care about the finer details.

Then a move away from this behaviour in RC2 kind of destabilized everything. We almost got RC1 back in v0 and got even closer with 1.3, but the changes to perfectblocking at least to me feel as if they're just bringing in a bit too much complexity compared to what a human can ideally do.

I think perfectblocking should occur if you have your crosshair on the opponent. To counterbalance the ease of perfectblock, ramp up the BP damage. The system would be simple to get a grasp of, but hard to master. It would suit Open mode's play far better by making fights quicker. However, it would also make fights between two confident duelists very drawn out and appealing.

There it is again bennyboy! That damned aim on model PB. I think it's an utterly bad idea now, as I did when I first encountered it (years ago?).
People will just aimbot duel. Don't deny the existence of cheats. I know there's a working private wulhek out there some fuckers are using to somehow bypass the poor cheat system LoU recode plz? But that is just a minor reason for me to not like this aim on body mechanic. It's so damn easy and we might aswell remove PB if the mechanic becomes diminished to such an extent.

I think what tempest is doing is helping to make the system more accessible to open mode players, whilst simultaneously adding the possibility of distinguishment through skill in a way that is hard to observe in 1.4 builds where there's a sudden and dramatic difference between noobs and those who just grasp the mechanics somewhat. Rather than a clifflike learning curve it would be more gradual and extend further upwards? Atleast thats the way I like to imagine it occuring, whether or not that is how its gonna turn out remains to be seen. But I am hopeful.