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Are devs overcomplicating the saber system?

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by Savage (Ranar), Feb 10, 2017.

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Are devs overcomplicating the saber system?

  1. Yes

  2. No

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. {Δ} Achilles

    {Δ} Achilles Internal Beta Team

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    I enjoyed 1.3, and I have always advocated that the only thing wrong with 1.3 were the way the styles were handled themselves (as well as swingblock lending to spammy fights), and only a couple of styles stood out (Cyan/Blue mostly, and everyone whined about Cyan, despite it being easily countered by good players)

    I can see a need for changing the system somewhat, but I never wanted to change it totally. We had a stable system on 1.3, and I didn't see a need to completely redesign it when we could just perfect what already worked.

    However, Tempest has already put in a lot of work into this new saber system, and I intend to support him as long as he makes *good* changes. I speak my mind fully and freely, so I do not sugar coat stupid ideas as something other than what they are. Was against the block system change, but I will not judge it until I am witness to the complete package.

    I agree, but that is partially because of the weird idea that the devs have regarding swings being blocked causing a 'bounce' back, which is rather dumb, and looks dumb.

    Depends sort of on the style, and the mechanics in use, but I tend to agree.

    Depends on what you mean by 'read', if you still think prediction is a skill, then you need to rethink this stance. Though, keep in mind, knowledge itself has the lowest skill floor. Knowing what to do in situations to win is easy, but what makes highly skilled players is their reaction times, judgement, and dedication to practicing such methodology.

    1.3 had a good answer to that issue, where same-horizontal side swings caused a spin. You could not do WA->SA, or SA->WA, or WA->A etc... without spinning. It meant that when an opponent was attacking you with a swing, he was left with only 3 options at any one time, either WA->WD, or WA->SD, or WA->W. This made the fast swings a still relatively skillful environment, because you could read their swings by looking at their footwork, setup, and other tells. 1.3 also heavily depended upon timing of half swings that could only come from one side on most styles (A), and counter swings. These things actually produced a very skillful and fun environment, and although it wasn't perfect, it didn't merit the retarded leap from 1.3 to 1.4.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
  2. DaloLorn

    DaloLorn Movie Battles II Team

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    Hmmm, you can quite visibly see a pretty even divide between two different 'schools' of sabering emerging from the poll answers - one side has people like SeV, Kas, Aaron and me (most notably SeV), the other has people like Achilles, LoU or Aizen. I wonder what the difference is...

    (Also, yay, I'm the tiebreaker! ;))
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
    Savage (Ranar) and ----Kas---- like this.
  3. Rosh+

    Rosh+ US Official Server Admin

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    If Tempest has his way with it, yes. But if you are asking about the move from the old saber system to the current one, the answer is no. If anything, the saber system has gotten less complicated compared to back then.
     
    lessen likes this.
  4. hleV

    hleV

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    These 1.3 newbs don't know the awesomeness that was V0.1.4, or hell, even V1 was alright. As long as you had enough experience, you could just sit back, relax, and let muscle memory do things for you. Not that complicated eh? That's what I liked about it and what I dislike about the changes that followed. Now you have to stress yourself over every pixel on the screen in order to properly PB, parry and whatnot. Among other things. It wouldn't be a bad thing in a competetive game with stats/leaderboards/etc., but MB2 is not like that. It used to be fun, but then it no longer was.
     
    Chaos the Chaotic and Cake' like this.
  5. Savage (Ranar)

    Savage (Ranar)

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    "These 1.3 newbs" < This comment was not necessary. Please keep respect while commenting on this thread or do not comment at all. Thank you. :)
     
    AaronAaron likes this.
  6. SeV

    SeV EU Official Server Admin Internal Beta Team

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    Afaik 1.3 gave rise to some extremely skilled duelists, so saying newbs is probably wrong. I do think however, that those starting in later builds do not share the same understanding of the saber system as oldfag duelists who have played through and adapted to many good and bad changes over the years. I think there is a vaster font of experience to draw on when making a good saber system from these players than from 1.3 players like Achilles, but I don't think that this is any reason to dismiss their suggestions though.

    With stassin, 1.3 and aimed PB we saw the beginning of a new era in dueling. Many oldfags miss certain aspects and feelings from before that time and I think they are for the most part justified in missing them, since some parts just felt better to play even if something like 1.3 and aimed PB is an objective improvement a feeling was lost. One part of tempests struggle is to attempt to join two eras of sabering into one and revive the feels from the good old systems and combine it with the sensibility of post 1.3 systems with aimed PB and polished mechanics. Not an easy task, and not a task that can be done with simplicity. Some amount of complication is inevitable and probably desirable in the pursuit of a superior saber system.
     
  7. hleV

    hleV

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    Yes it was. 1.3 newbs need to know their place.

    You can call me V0 newb, as I haven't experienced the supposed awesomeness of beta builds.
     
    Chaos the Chaotic likes this.
  8. LoU

    LoU Space Janitor R2D2 Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    You would love b19/rc1/rcx-beforestagger/
     
  9. AaronAaron

    AaronAaron Contributor Internal Beta Team

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    pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

    everyone after 1.3 is a noob regardless of skill. Even if you're the best, you could never beat an old player in their PRIME
     
  10. SeV

    SeV EU Official Server Admin Internal Beta Team

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    B19. Never again. x.x
     
  11. Vizino

    Vizino

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    imo if its not what it is, it kinda reminds me of just base jka, and the added complexity of it kinda adds for like truly mastering a style
     
  12. SK55555555555555555

    SK55555555555555555 EU Official Server Admin Internal Beta Team

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    MB2 in a nutshell

    Introduce something new: Old players whine because they think the mod should not evolve and they wanna stay pro by not playing.
    Nerf op stuff: Noobs start whining because they thought they actually were decent players.
     
    The Unguided and hleV like this.
  13. Sammy

    Sammy Master of Whispers Contributor Internal Beta Team

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    people will still find a way to like dueling. you say you won't but you will

    also: remove cyan, purple, dualies, staff kthx
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  14. Chaos the Chaotic

    Chaos the Chaotic

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    B19 was shit.
    I was a top duelist in that horrid build and you want to know the irony?
    The hud ate my fps so I had it disabled and played blind that entire build. Using just audio and instinct to win 90% of duels.

    No hudfiles back then.
     
    ----Kas---- likes this.
  15. Spock

    Spock

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    Live long and prosper
     
  16. Chaos the Chaotic

    Chaos the Chaotic

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    Can I eat him?
     
    Puppytine likes this.
  17. hleV

    hleV

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    Perhaps you won 90% duels because others haven't had their HUD disabled and thus had their FPS eaten? xD
     
    DaloLorn likes this.
  18. Chaos the Chaotic

    Chaos the Chaotic

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    Huh.

    Never thought of that. Nah, my pc sucked.
    Even the one I upgraded to sucks.

    Waiting for a part to arrive so I can play again.
    Who knew discboards were so fragile?

    Like crackerlike.
     
  19. GoodOl'Ben

    GoodOl'Ben Contributor Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    Complexity is fine. It just needs to be done correctly.

    The goals for the system changes are good. The changes need to be tested in practice and observed whether they reach these goals.

    I've written long and drawn-out posts on this regard and even given my input to shape previous overhauls. Most successful of which I felt was RC1. Back then we largely just grinded the animation behaviour to be as fluid as possible with very little care about the finer details.

    Then a move away from this behaviour in RC2 kind of destabilized everything. We almost got RC1 back in v0 and got even closer with 1.3, but the changes to perfectblocking at least to me feel as if they're just bringing in a bit too much complexity compared to what a human can ideally do.

    I think perfectblocking should occur if you have your crosshair on the opponent. To counterbalance the ease of perfectblock, ramp up the BP damage. The system would be simple to get a grasp of, but hard to master. It would suit Open mode's play far better by making fights quicker. However, it would also make fights between two confident duelists very drawn out and appealing.
     
  20. SeV

    SeV EU Official Server Admin Internal Beta Team

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    There it is again bennyboy! That damned aim on model PB. I think it's an utterly bad idea now, as I did when I first encountered it (years ago?).
    People will just aimbot duel. Don't deny the existence of cheats. I know there's a working private wulhek out there some fuckers are using to somehow bypass the poor cheat system LoU recode plz? But that is just a minor reason for me to not like this aim on body mechanic. It's so damn easy and we might aswell remove PB if the mechanic becomes diminished to such an extent.

    I think what tempest is doing is helping to make the system more accessible to open mode players, whilst simultaneously adding the possibility of distinguishment through skill in a way that is hard to observe in 1.4 builds where there's a sudden and dramatic difference between noobs and those who just grasp the mechanics somewhat. Rather than a clifflike learning curve it would be more gradual and extend further upwards? Atleast thats the way I like to imagine it occuring, whether or not that is how its gonna turn out remains to be seen. But I am hopeful.
     
    ----Kas---- likes this.

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