1.4 Open Beta General Feedback

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If I understand you right, this can still be done by attempting an RDFA after your third swing -- you'll hop the distance w/o the dfa bit.

I didn't know that, thanks for sharing that bit of information.

Even if that turns out to be true, why did they make it impossible to do after the first swing? I can only assume it was collateral damage, and inadvertently changed.

I agree Red absolutely needed a nerf -- it was undoubtedly OP, especially in the right hands.

I can deal with the BP damage modifier being cut almost in half, the HP damage being reduced by 150, the Pblock perk being removed and given to Cyan, and the HP damage reduction being reduced and given to Jedi/Sith for free, but nerfing the already limited mobility of Red seems really rough. To top it off, the only compensation Red received was getting noob-friendly combos and no spinning. Maybe if they mildly increased the BP modifier of Red like they did with Cyan, these changes could be taken with a grain of salt -- right now they're somewhat unpalatable.
 
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Classes:
Jedi:
- Removing the perks is a very bad idea. They made the styles more unique and made some previously totally unused styles usable in Open mode. Some of the perks was OP, but its not a reason the remove them. The "universal" 20% damage reduction as compensation is a huge buff for medium style, what didnt have any perk in the previous version, so it didnt lose anything in this beta, only get a buff. IMO you nearly restored the old system, where the medium style is the best choice in Open mode, the rest of them are usually waste of points. It'd be better to balance the perks by giving them negative attributes as well, like giving damage reduction, but making the movement speed slower. Another thing what could be used is to disable the perks if more than 1 style is purchased. A single style with perks wouldnt be OP (especially if it also have a negative attribute), and if the player has more than 1 style, the perks would be disabled.

Super Battle Droid:
- The green stamina bar isnt visible. Everything is working as it should be, but the bar looks empty on the HUD. There's a blue stick on the HUD what shows if the stamina is drained, but nothing more.
- Its strange since its not mentioned in the changelog, and others are reported differently, but I can see the crosshair in scope mode now. I'm not sure why others cant see it, or why can I see it, anyway I think its better to share this.

Mandalorian:
- I'm not familiar with the Wrist laser, but the recharge rate is on 3 sec now, while the changelog states that it has been changed from 3s to 5s.
- The Wrist laser changes doesnt make it a better choice for the common players, because Flamethrower is still much more easier to use. Not to mention that the Wrist laser ammo is basically reduced from 4 to 1, since the 5th or in this case the 2nd shot makes your weapon broken, what you obviously doesnt want to do, unless you're in a really big trouble. IMO you nerfed the Wrist laser and it was unnecessary.

Movement:
- There was a bug in the previous versions that in some cases when you fall down from somewhere and you wallgrabbing yourself, you still get the falling damage. Making this bug a feature and calling it a "fix" is unrealistic and understandable. Disable the wallgrab at situations like this if you wish, but making it available for no reason (it doesnt negate damage anymore) is unrealistic, silly and annoying. I can see the reason behind this change gameplay-wise, but it still looks very odd and annoying ingame.

Models:
- I have a modified Palpatine model what fixes some problems with the normals on the arms. If the dev who's in charge about models is interested about this, please PM me.
- Since the Endor Luke is available in Open mode, I have to ask that why didnt you add the forest camo Leia into Open mode? It uses the same model as the "bunker" version, and the same textures (but the poncho).

Maps:
Deathstar:
- I joined to the EU Open server, the scoreboard said the teams are tied at 0, and I saw 2 players disconnecting. The problem is that I wasnt able to join the game. No counter, no notification about "players are required to play" or anything like that. The closed door at the Rebel spawn elevators was open. Another player joined later, but we couldnt join the game. I dont know if its a map bug, or a server bug, or anything else, but it doesnt hurt anyone to share this.
- If you modify the map anyway, I suggest to change the door at the Rebel spawn elevator, so it'd automatically open after certain time (~10-15s). It'd be great because I experienced that sometimes there are "funny" players who start the hacking process but dont finish it, blocking the team. A change like this wouldnt affect the gameplay much.
- The door of the area where the droids hid in the control room should be disabled. It cant be opened from the outside, and if all Jedi is dead, a Sith can easily lock himself/herself inside and prevent the main hacking process by jumping out, scare and/or kill the hacker and go back, doing this with little to no risk at all. It doesnt give anything useful to the map.

Echobase:
- It is very unrealistic that the Rebel team cannot destroy the backway. Why dont you use a force field around there, what could be disabled if the Imperials reach a certain point on the map or hack something? It looks very odd that the Rebels cant deal with the ice in their own base, while the Imperials can.
- Again: the Wampa should be removed, its just a source of trolling, but doesnt give anything useful to the map.

General:
- The anti-JoinTheTeamWithTheMorePlayers system can be outsmarted very easily and players can join into the team with the more players. I dont want share this exploit in public, so it'd be great if the dev who's in charge about this could PM me if he/she is interested about this problem.
- If the "Check for installation intergity on start" is allowed in the launcher, after it checks the files in the MBII folder after starting the launcher, it deletes all original MB asset .pk3 files from the MBIIBeta folder (so replacements arent deleted, nor the config files).
 
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DarthDementous

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Super-push is useless now. I reciprocated this with a friend by super pushing him with no force block only to find that the amount he flew was drastically reduced to the point that even when right next to a wall there was no splattering. I noticed that Repulse still functions the same which is bizarre and encourages people to use repulse over the much more skill-full pull 3 and push 3 which doesn't even do HP damage on its own anymore. This was found to be the same with pull + lightning with the only difference being a small deduction of HP from flying across the room, but no splatter like it used to be. I doubt this was intentional so this is most likely a result of changing something else.

I also advocate that the wrist-blaster needs to be buffed and also have the bug of the ammo counter remaining at 2 and there being three shots with an invisible explosion rather than the programmed 2.

I think I can pin-point the randomness of gunnery to the dynamic cross-hair issues others seem to be having, it feels like shots are landing a lot less even in situations the enemy is close.
 

agentoo8

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If I understand you right, this can still be done by attempting an RDFA after your third swing -- you'll hop the distance w/o the dfa bit.

an unnecessary change and a direct nerf to aerial red users (myself/skee). having to press an extra button is just meh when you're already pressing forward/jump/attack/use. hopefully this will be changed.

especially with how strong defensive dueling shall be, unorthodox styles must be encouraged.
 

agentoo8

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let's just be done with it and turn the game into CSGO, remove lightsabers, to appease the dv8 lot/their sidekick gumba. saber perks encouraged some variety in style usage in open - a very good thing. now its back to the monotony it was before.

tone down the perks, sure - but a complete removal? excessive.
 
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Gargos

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It is too early to say can we add some perks. I wanna play this flinch thing for a longer time (I am actually interested as a jedi/sith player about this) and then see if perks are indeed needed
 

CC-1119 'Appo'

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Okay, please test with this now (you will need to modify one of the startup .bats to use openjk.x86.exe instead of mbii.x86.exe): https://builds.openjk.org/openjk-2016-03-14-ed95d183-windows.zip

Fails to launch, error log in spoiler.
Looks like the rd-vanilla-mbii_x86.dll file that came with the fix for menu and in game sensitivity fix is outdated compared to the openjk build, at least that's what I'm getting from this error log.

EDIT: Used the rd-vanilla-mbii_x86.dll file from the 1.4 beta patch RAR archive and the game launches, menu and ingame sensitivity is broken again, crosshair/camera is also not fixed still moves like crazy when strafing even with thirdpersoncameradamp & crosshairdamp at 1.

OpenJK-MP: v1.0.1.0 win_msvc-x86 Mar 10 2016
----- FS_Startup -----
Current search path:
C:\Users\USER\Documents\My Games\OpenJK\MBIIBeta
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\z_MB_BaseAssets.pk3 (14 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\zz_MBModels2.pk3 (4255 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\zz_MBModels.pk3 (1765 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\MB_Effects.pk3 (686 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\MBII_Mac.pk3 (2 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\MBII.pk3 (4 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\MBHilts.pk3 (791 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\MBAssets3.pk3 (2136 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\MBAssets2.pk3 (1740 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\MBAssets.pk3 (623 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_um_assets3.pk3 (1059 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_um_assets2.pk3 (3497 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_um_assets.pk3 (1110 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_tradefed.pk3 (299 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_theed.pk3 (94 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_sdestroyer.pk3 (128 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_republiccruiser.pk3 (639 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_lunarbase.pk3 (57 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_kamino.pk3 (364 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_jeditemple.pk3 (414 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_echobase.pk3 (91 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_duel_senate.pk3 (71 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_dotf.pk3 (267 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_deathstar.pk3 (346 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_commtower.pk3 (255 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_cmp_assets3.pk3 (959 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_cmp_assets2.pk3 (2480 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_cmp_assets.pk3 (1842 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\mb2_cloudcity.pk3 (272 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\FAMBModels.pk3 (1395 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\03_MovieGameMappack.pk3 (6325 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\031_MovieGameMappack.pk3 (2107 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\02_MovieGameMappack.pk3 (2692 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta\01_MovieGameMappack.pk3 (3200 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\MBIIBeta
C:\Users\USER\Documents\My Games\OpenJK\base
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\base\assets3.pk3 (16 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\base\assets2.pk3 (62 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\base\assets1.pk3 (8320 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\base\assets0.pk3 (15346 files)
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Jedi Academy\GameData\base

----------------------
65723 files in pk3 files
execing mpdefault.cfg
execing openjk.cfg
couldn't exec autoexec.cfg
----- Initializing Renderer ----
Trying to load "rd-vanilla-mbii_x86.dll" from "."...
Mismatched REF_API_VERSION: expected 5, got 8
Couldn't initialize refresh
 
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MaceMadunusus

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tone down the perks, sure - but a complete removal? excessive.

Once again, due to the nature of the perks themselves (Damage reduction, FP drain reduction) It adds a layer of randomness onto things that is out of the players control and is incredibly flawed in their game design ideals in the first place. Again, you need consistency for people to understand something. They expect their weapons to do X amount of damage, X amount of FP drain. There is a reason we removed the random damage chance percentage in RC2 or so (There was a 15% +/- Damage on each shot you took). Gunners already have to deal with hit locations, ranges, etc. If they hit someone in the arm instead of the chest they might still live and kill them depending on health. Now with things like damage reduction, they can hit them dead center and the person can tank a shot requiring no-skill to do so. This fucks up YEARS of Saberist vs Gunner balance of tweaking weapon damages, hit location modifiers, force drains and if we modified them to compensate, every other stance would get shat on. It was worse on top of that that each of the perks were given to stances to cover their weaknesses not increase their strengths. Honestly, Saber vs Gunner perks were the worst game design decision I have ever seen come out of the MB team. It was purely justified in their removal and will continue to stay that way.'

We need to simplify the game and make it easier to understand (Not remove mechanical depth if we can help it) but adding saberist perks which have no visual indicators while doing several animations, can be switched on mid swing without a cooldown and give you the ability to modify your attacks based off situations (A gunner CANNOT switch their weapons to things they don't have, or switch weapons they do have that quickly) just ruins the experience for anyone.
 
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I disagree. The perks werent balanced, but the idea of giving the saber styles different attributes wasnt bad. IMO the main problem was that you didnt add any negative attributes to the styles, only positive ones. If the style with the damage reduction buff could also receive an FP regeneration nerf, it'd be a whole different story. IMO this should be the way to upgrade the saber styles in Jedi vs Gunner combat. Otherwise the other styles besides Medium style will be unused in Open mode again, and seriously you cant blame the players for not using them. Why should they waste points on the other styles when Medium style is perfectly capable to deal with the enemy in every single situation and the other styles dont offer anything else, while they have serious disadvantages in some combat situations? As I said in my feedback post, it'd be another alternative if perks would be enabled only if the player has 1 style purchased. So the Jedi wouldnt be able to tank with Strong style, but also get FP regeneration bonus with another. IMO it was another problem what should be taken care of... but not by removing the perks.
 

MaceMadunusus

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I disagree. The perks werent balanced, but the idea of giving the saber styles different attributes wasnt bad. IMO the main problem was that you didnt add any negative attributes to the styles, only positive ones. If the style with the damage reduction buff could also receive an FP regeneration nerf, it'd be a whole different story. IMO this should be the way to upgrade the saber styles in Jedi vs Gunner combat. Otherwise the other styles besides Medium style will be unused in Open mode again, and seriously you cant blame the players for not using them. Why should they waste points on the other styles when Medium style is perfectly capable to deal with the enemy in every single situation and the other styles dont offer anything else? As I said in my feedback post, it'd be another alternative if perks would be enabled only if the player has 1 style purchased. So the Jedi wouldnt be able to tank with Strong style, but also get FP regeneration bonus with another. IMO it was another problem what should be taken care of... but not by removing the perks.

Anything that alters saber vs gunner balance adds a level of complexity to an already complex game. We do not want that, and saying otherwise is beyond idiotic. Do not add an arbitrary layer onto something that does not require skill. Even if we fixed the problems with the perks, red wouldn't get damage reduction for example because the negative attribute of red stance is vulnerability, giving damage reduction takes that away. We already have the positive and negative attributes of stances. Adding the alternative so perks are only enabled if one style is purchased again messes completely with the complexity of the game and is a stupid thing to do.
 
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I'm sure I'm not "beyond idiotic" just because I have a different opinion than you have @MaceMadunusus (-.-'), I just say that removing the perks also removes the reason to use other lightsaber styles beside Medium style, what is buffed again thanks to the +20% dmg reduction btw. You talk about complexity, but you just reduce the complexity of the Jedi vs Gunner saber system, because all styles beside Medium style are wasted points in most cases now. The v1.3 system wasnt too complex, it was imbalanced. Using your words, I think its a "stupid thing" to not try to fix something, what brought something new to a very old mod - even if its clear now that it was poorly balanced -, just because its easier to restore stuffs to be similiar like they were before, when it was clear before the release of v1.3, that the previously used saber system, what was focused on the Medium style wasnt optimal.

I doubt I could persuade you since you started with words like "idiotic" and "stupid" in a totally calm and cool conversation, but I said what I wanted to. I thought thats the reason of this feedback thread: to share our thoughts about this beta. I'm sorry if I offended you with my opinions and ideas... I guess.
 

MaceMadunusus

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I doubt I could persuade you since you started with words like "idiotic" and "stupid" in a totally calm and cool conversation, but I said what I wanted to. I thought thats the reason of this feedback thread: to share our thoughts about this beta. I'm sorry if I offended you with my opinions and ideas... I guess.

I spent days going with the team over the reasons not to have perks.... there is literally pages of reasons why that I do not have the time nor energy to spell out in detail and you're just going to have to trust the idiotic and stupid comments as that was a way for me to simplify. We have thought of just about everything everyone is going to suggest. The idea of a saberist vs gunner perk isn't going to work until EVERY single stance has unique animations for everything AT A BARE MINIMUM. The idea of them will not be returning until at least that is done by someone, which it will likely never be.
 

StarWarsGeek

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The idea of a saberist vs gunner perk isn't going to work until EVERY single stance has unique animations for everything AT A BARE MINIMUM.
I really liked the concept of having stances affect more than swing speed/animation/damage, but it just wasn't working. I think that quote is the best way to sum up the issue. All the single saber stances having the same run/walk animation makes it too easy to hide what style you're using.

I still think some perks that don't directly affect saber vs gun (such as cyan free wallruns and staff FP regen outside of combat) would be okay to have though. But if they aren't directly affecting combat, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to tie those abilities to stances anyway.
 

Starushka

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I also support full removal of perks in gunner vs saberist match up.
This is how i persoanlly see things. No need for perks as they're already distinguished very well due to many stats such as animation speed, damage, swing length etc.

Blue - Speed. Good against low health targets.
Cyan - Transition style, biased towards defense. Good in saber vs saber match-up.
Yellow - Jack of all trades, master of none.
Purple - Transition style, biased towards offense. Good in saber vs saber match-up.
Red - Damage. Good against tank classes.
White/Green - Survivability. Good vs groups of enemies.
 

Hexodious

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I still find the current system a lot more accessible to the other stances thanks to the new point structure regardless of the perks, whereas before I'd need to spend 20 points in attack just to get fast blue/red/staff/duals (staff and duals even required defense 3 - which they don't anymore), I can simply spend 8 or 10 points now and get the stance I prefer and the force powers I want to play with.

Before if you wanted to have any sort of creative build with anything other than yellow the point structure punished you more than anything else, it wasn't a matter of ''yellow is the best'' stance, it just had the most options due to affordability.

With flinch fast stances are favorable to medium/strong styles to connect before getting hit and with nudge working against gunners the main issue with the slower stances can be bypassed, causing those long swings to be half-swings without wind-up which is great for Red and Purple - especially against higher HP classes.

I think this will get more apparent as people adjust to the new mechanics more.

TLDR (and very generalized);
Fast vs Guns
: Strong against flinch, little gain from nudge, requires 2-3 hits on most classes
Medium vs Guns: Average against flinch, average gain from nudge, requires 1-2 hits on most classes
Strong vs Guns: Weak against flinch, massive gain from nudge, requires 1 hit on most classes
 
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