1.4 Open Beta Dueling Feedback

[Tempest]

Fast styles dueling each other aren't supposed to be fast...

Overall, definitely liking it a lot better.
- Blocking actually matters and does more than just make the first swing less painful.
- Yay for yellow having some kind of perk.
- Please add saber twirl back
- There is something kind of off with the halfswing animation but it's hard to put a finger on it. Might be something in regards to trying to make the timing different between normal halfswing and pblock stuff.
- Please do something about being able to yolo turn around and instant back kata people. It's really stupid and starting to trend.
- Would be nice to have some kind of indicator if you're getting parries. Similar to body hit hp draining noises in RC1 would be sufficient.
- Seems like there might be some instances where pblock doesn't actually stop swing chains but that might just be a weird swing start time thing. edit: might be related to trying to mblock? I've had times where I have a pblock indicator as well as body hit indicator at the same time somehow...edit 2: probably just end of combos.
- Having pblocks on staff not stagger people sometimes (think it might be related to mblock).
- Nudge is always double edged sword but we'll see how it plays out.
- Staff (probably duals too) seems like the counters are a lot stronger than others,
- W swing too strong with directionless stuff.
- Might be a bug with pblock where you lose however much BP (don't know if there's a threshhold yet) and just die. Have had it happen twice already where I saw the HUD flash green and then I instantly died cause my saber got dropped (0 BP ftw).
- Can hit people on opposite sides if you're facehugging.
- This is probably related to the previous point but it seems like sidewacks are happenin more frequently. Something about the hitboxes change?

Also new smod stuff not added or not updated on officials

 

[Cat Lady]

I definitely don't don't like that the sum of changes seems like turtle duelist wet dream, buffed by ecstasy overdose.

I tried to like it. I listen to "voices of reason", considered their ideas ow how dueling should look etc. Well, maybe it works for people that consider *themselves* "top duelists", as it fits their playstyle perfectly - but, just as I worried, from perspective of casual duelist, it just SUXX big time. Not at the level of being able to win or not, cause frankly, it is never useful for measureing rationality of changes. It suxx at the level of being *fun* and *interesting* to play with. Bullet points:
---

1. Nerfing non-pblocked + non-walkslashed attacks to do 1.0 BP damage instead of (already miserable, given the risk of getting slapped / lack of BP regen during slash / higher BP loss if hit) 1.2 BP...

+

2. PBlock stopping chains (this, per se, is very good change - it just doesn't play well with the rest of changed rules)...

+

3. Ability to do old perfect block (semi-perfect block now) while running/swingblocking/reading book/smoking weed...

=

Big, fat, awesomely glad TURTLE. The sum of it, is that zombie-walker duels (bane of previous dueling incarnations) are now - practically - ONLY one possible way of dueling. One could literally fall asleep watching (or performing!) most fights, and wouldn't lose a thing.

Also, it is worth adding, that all of above - summed with BP damage nerf to strong styles = they could be as well deleted from dueling, at all.
}I've been *perfectly seriously* told that - for example - red users may try to run their non-attacking saber into enemy model to trigger nudge, and play halfswing from that - SERIOUSLY, this is what we want dueling to look like? Not that it doesn't work - actually, it work quite well - but it is as "retarded" as it could be + even a little more. Plays terribly, looks terribly, and overall is prime candidate for some SW dueling parody videos. (BTW, another way - starting strong slash and then canceling it with reload, to confuse enemy - looks exactly as bad, if not worse... Not to mention that number of easily-accessible keys is reaching "made for octopuses" level).

TL;DR

While most changes for Jedi vs gunner are good/very good, the dueling is made flat, zombie-turtle like and completely uninteresting, not to mention that someone really hated strong styles and deleted to nuke them "just because". I know SeV worked hard on balancing those things, and I don't believe that what comes next is actually the case, but somehow I just can't shake the feeling that current dueling was made (sub-consciously?) to only satisfy playstyle of certain, small group of duelists...

/Cat Lady

Disclaimer:
This is purely my personal opinion, stated as a player, and have nothing to do with things from inside dev team. In fact, I haven't seen those dueling changes before noticing them in changelog and experiencing them first-hand in actual, live beta.


// Edit
And I really don't know why anyone really considered re-introducing nudge (on models, outside of attack) mechanism, let alone actually implementing it - apart from looking grotesquely and completely breaking immersion, it is a poor excuse for a mechanism of starting faster swing for slow styles. I literally facepalmed at the look of it being implemented to shorten starting slash between two red duelers - wild goose chase who will poke who first with their erected... blades. It's beyond terrible.

 

[T r i s t a n]

I definitely don't don't like that the sum of changes seems like turtle duelist wet dream, buffed by ecstasy overdose.

I tried to like it. I listen to "voices of reason", considered their ideas ow how dueling should look etc. Well, maybe it works for people that consider *themselves* "top duelists", as it fits their playstyle perfectly - but, just as I worried, from perspective of casual duelist, it just SUXX big time. Not at the level of being able to win or not, cause frankly, it is never useful for measureing rationality of changes. It suxx at the level of being *fun* and *interesting* to play with. Bullet points:
---

1. Nerfing non-pblocked + non-walkslashed attacks to do 1.0 BP damage instead of (already miserable, given the risk of getting slapped / lack of BP regen during slash / higher BP loss if hit) 1.2 BP...

+

2. PBlock stopping chains (this, per se, is very good change - it just doesn't play well with the rest of changed rules)...

+

3. Ability to do old perfect block (semi-perfect block now) while running/swingblocking/reading book/smoking weed...

=

Big, fat, awesomely glad TURTLE. The sum of it, is that zombie-walker duels (bane of previous dueling incarnations) are now - practically - ONLY one possible way of dueling. One could literally fall asleep watching (or performing!) most fights, and wouldn't lose a thing.

Also, it is worth adding, that all of above - summed with BP damage nerf to strong styles = they could be as well deleted from dueling, at all.
}I've been *perfectly seriously* told that - for example - red users may try to run their non-attacking saber into enemy model to trigger nudge, and play halfswing from that - SERIOUSLY, this is what we want dueling to look like? Not that it doesn't work - actually, it work quite well - but it is as "retarded" as it could be + even a little more. Plays terribly, looks terribly, and overall is prime candidate for some SW dueling parody videos. (BTW, another way - starting strong slash and then canceling it with reload, to confuse enemy - looks exactly as bad, if not worse... Not to mention that number of easily-accessible keys is reaching "made for octopuses" level).

TL;DR

While most changes for Jedi vs gunner are good/very good, the dueling is made flat, zombie-turtle like and completely uninteresting, not to mention that someone really hated strong styles and deleted to nuke them "just because". I know SeV worked hard on balancing those things, and I don't believe that what comes next is actually the case, but somehow I just can't shake the feeling that current dueling was made (sub-consciously?) to only satisfy playstyle of certain, small group of duelists...

/Cat Lady

Disclaimer:
This is purely my personal opinion, stated as a player, and have nothing to do with things from inside dev team. In fact, I haven't seen those dueling changes before noticing them in changelog and experiencing them first-hand in actual, live beta.


// Edit
And I really don't know why anyone really considered re-introducing nudge (on models, outside of attack) mechanism, let alone actually implementing it - apart from looking grotesquely and completely breaking immersion, it is a poor excuse for a mechanism of starting faster swing for slow styles. I literally facepalmed at the look of it being implemented to shorten starting slash between two red duelers - wild goose chase who will poke who first with their erected... blades. It's beyond terrible.

Agreed with everything.
Except I have one thing to add. The Flinching when shot close range by a gunner is really irritating. It feels like useless hassle just to make gunning easier, while hurting saber combat a great deal. Especially with the new FP and BP changes. New Jedi/Sith players will be too scared to attempt the new saber mechanics and it will force them away from MBII, because lets face it, a normal person would rather play as a Jedi/Sith in a Star Wars game rather than a imperial commander... It may even force existing saber wielders away from MBII as well. I cannot put my finger on what it really is that is killing saber combat for me (it is first day after all) but the more I play, the more I realize. I would rather be on a 1.3 server...

 

[Perion]

Completely agree with Cat Lady.

 

[Tempest]

@Cat Lady,
I can see how it would be a lot more difficult for newer players. I agree it's lowering the skill floor and ceiling but I don't agree that it's a zombie thing (from the hours I did in this sitting). Maybe the EU side is doing stuff differently (not trying to sound insulting or anything, we all know there's traditionally been notable differences between NA/EU) because the duels one had have been prettttty intense (vs non-white names).

Nudge is very obnoxious to new players, yes. It is, however, one of the counters to the new pblock mechanic. The new pblock mechanic is pretty solid at limiting the face mashing that used to happen so much. I'm all for changes as long as blocking is actually relevant (it's not on live) and facemashing spam doesn't live on.

Edit: As it stands, 1.3 has been horribly stale and boring for me personally. NA/EU are fairly similar this time around albeit there's been a cyan trend happening in NA. It really just feels mindless most of the time. No strategy. Skill isn't a determining factor in a lot of cases. I could go on but yeah.

 

[agentoo8]

Defensive duelists definitely have an advantage as of this patch. Offensive players will have to modify their gameplay and not be so orthodox. Won't be able to play until tomorrow, then I will conduct a thorough testing of it (SeV let me know if you're available to test with me)

 

[Shady]

After some attunement, the sabering changes could lead us to a brighter future, however..

I only have two issues, but they're both immensely deep.

☆ Bring back RDFA jumps. (Aka DFA fly, if you will.) It's a major element of my playstyle and many other duelists' , I'm sure they'd want it back as well.

☆ Nudge is unnecessary in my opinion, it also makes dueling look like a mess.

But..! Nevertheless, I like the general sabering changes and I hope in time we'll get a build that will be acknowledged by the majority of the community.

 

[Preston]

So far besides some bugs I have a few complaints, 1. Bring back RDFA jump, old the one. 2. Fix the half swing animation for a swings. 3. I'm undecided on pblock stopping combos, it's interesting, but it sorta makes the player feel "less in control", and it definitely does slow down duels. Me and papajuan were going at it for 5 minutes for more than 1 round. 4. maybe smoothen out the nudge animation, and blocking animation.

 

[Shady]

^ This

 

[vasya]

okay, well.

for the first - we dont need nudge because as was said - it's a mess. u trying to attack, u going face to face to the opponent, trying to catch nudge, trying to spam. spam dealing poor damage. just no. it's not how it should work when opponent used slap in the air.

and from what i was said above - pls delete this thing when combo chain canceled on pblock. because 1) u need nudge for the 1st attack, 2) u dont have chances with any other attack than kissing range nudge versus guys who knows how to PB. Not much of an options isn't it?

ppl should have choice in their playstyles. if i like to attack by shadowswings why i can't do it anymore? cuz my chain will be broken? cuz i can not make any damage, no halfswings as i saw.

it's all about nudge spam with swingblocks or pblocks with counters. don't see great tactical opportunities in playstyle.

still better than 1.3 tho.

 

[agentoo8]

I think nudge is kind of needed given that the meta of this system will probably be defensive play. Coupled with PB preventing combos, it will be an important part of red (again) and purple/yellow. You'll want to get in their face as much as you can. Red will be harder to play versus someone who knows how to PB, but once you get the nudge combos/feint them out you will take control. Lots of interesting dynamics to explore, still early days.

BRING BACK RDFA JUMPS.

 

[SeV]

1. Bring Back RDFA Jump It seems nobody likes the reload RDFA jump beside you stassin

2. Make red stagger slightly longer (but not as long as in closed beta).

3. Remove 2 ACC drain from bodyhits/yellow perk from Cyan/blue or find some other way to balance it vs styles like yellow. Blue is more than fine vs Red for example, but can struggle vs yellow due to not being able to get and retain any meaningful ACM. Cyan meanwhile has an easier time with ACM retention due to more combos being able to parry to keep ACM, but has low BP multiplier. So I am not sure that my -2 ACC nerf is needed for the fast styles after all.

EDIT: Nudge is needed with the current PB. It makes for much more intese/interesting and reaction based combat overall and it doesn't look bad to me either. It might feel iffy if you're playing 1.4 with a high ping (over 120), I know because I myself have had that experience given how shit my internet usually is.

Defensive duelists definitely have an advantage as of this patch. Offensive players will have to modify their gameplay and not be so orthodox. Won't be able to play until tomorrow, then I will conduct a thorough testing of it (SeV let me know if you're available to test with me)

Yeah I'm available to play after around 23:00 CET which is 22:00 your time. Also, It's true that defense can be powerful if played by ppl like sek and stassin (and Sheo I suppose o.o) who are very good at PBs, but offensive play can also be a very strong option. It's just that the way to achieve a strong offense has morphed and changed a bit. You now need to incorporate nudge consistently to bypass most of the opponents PBs while keeping up the pressure by steadily building your ACM count and using combo's to interrupt the opponent and mess with his timing. IT requires more patience and meticulous advancement than the previous system in which it was easy to just 'out-yolo' your opponent if your attacking/comboing skills were superior. Now it feels like every duel no matter how trivial, requires atleast a modicum of effort if you are to succeed. Because if you aren't careful, your opponent can cause a reversal via PB+counters and well-timed combo interrupts/slaps.

EDIT: Yellow Left halfswing was faster than the other directions and we decided to make all halfswing directions equal in speed. That's why yellow left swing might look a little unusual because you're used to it 'clipping' the animation, but now it plays more fully.

 

[vasya]

why in the earth u cut out A-halfswing btw?

 

[agentoo8]

Sounds good, I shall message you. I'll try get Sheo online too so we can have 3 different POVs.

 

[andrew]

EDIT: Yellow Left halfswing was faster than the other directions and we decided to make all halfswing directions equal in speed. That's why yellow left swing might look a little unusual because you're used to it 'clipping' the animation, but now it plays more fully.

the d halfswing has the old animation, though

also i'm not sure if its a glitch or what but if you're saying it looks only a 'little' unusual we're playing different builds. the current A halfswing doesn't look like anything currently in the game, it doesn't even look like an A swing does non-halfswing style

 

[Firestrike]

I didn't play too much of the beta yet so I can't give my full input yet, I will point out two things that I noticed (most of this has already been said).

1. Yellow A halfswings got butchered somehow? The animation looks like the elbows and saber length extend twice as far as the old halfswings used to be. I could be doing it wrong but I couldn't replicate the halfswings I'm used to on live / prior builds in the beta at all when I was playing. D halfswing is much more solid now. I can D halfswing in air to get a faster swing, the A swing seems to be the same travel time as a single full length swing.

2. Full Perfect Block stopping combos isn't a bad idea (I actually rather like it) but it does promote turtle gameplay as Cat Lady said, a lot more. Most of the duels I saw are still 2 people staring at each other waiting for the other to swing so they can PB --> stop the incoming combo --> counter --> start the actual duel. This only happens when there is a pause in the duel, and is not as bad as live. Maybe something later on can be looked at to change this interaction.

I'm not sure if the beta build is a great build that can hold up to the previous ones, people will have mixed opinions. I will say that 1.4's saber system is a clear and direct improvement from what we currently have on 1.3, so there is that. Good job to @Stassin and @SeV for putting their work into this build and taking it in a better direction than the sinking ship that we have now currently. Hopefully it will keep getting better.

 

[Emmo2gee--]

Just some minor feedback - the nudging systems makes dueling very messy and difficult to read aesthetically. The nudge animation sort of combines with the swinging animation and half the time I couldn't tell if I was swinging or nudging - same with the opponent. Otherwise, I quite like the new additions to dueling from what I can see.

 

[andrew]

this is a super day 1 opinion but it feels like adding nudge as it is currently because defensive play was too strong isn't the best option

its not really the old nudge, and its put into a brand new system where weird interactions occur like pblock stopping combos but someone nudges or something and the combo continues regardless?

 

[Flooven]

I for one have completely enjoyed the changes to the dueling, however, being a yellow-only user myself, I really have to say that I feel like yellow is a tad bit overpowered. Now that's not to say it should be nerfed, but I feel that its silly that yellow feels even more defensive of a stance than blue, while also feeling more offensive. Red is definitely in a good spot for me because the attacks still hurt, but the ridiculous drain is gone. Cyan just feels weak. There isn't much to be said about it, it just doesn't feel as strong as it used to be offensively or defensively. I love the changes to yellow and making it a more primary stance, but it's almost to the point to where other stances just feel useless. I feel the only reason ill ever change stances is to pick up red to kill a wookie.

 

[Preston]

I for one have completely enjoyed the changes to the dueling, however, being a yellow-only user myself, I really have to say that I feel like yellow is a tad bit overpowered. Now that's not to say it should be nerfed, but I feel that its silly that yellow feels even more defensive of a stance than blue, while also feeling more offensive. Red is definitely in a good spot for me because the attacks still hurt, but the ridiculous drain is gone. Cyan just feels weak. There isn't much to be said about it, it just doesn't feel as strong as it used to be offensively or defensively. I love the changes to yellow and making it a more primary stance, but it's almost to the point to where other stances just feel useless. I feel the only reason ill ever change stances is to pick up red to kill a wookie.

I havnt dueled quite enough yet to see whats op or underpowerd yet, but I gotta say red is quite good balance wise, I actually atm find it a bit better than yellow because the any direction combos. Atleast with the people I used red against