1.4.5 Open Beta Dueling Feedback

[Lessen]

@T r i s t a n think of the game as an experimental project

 

[Darth Pujge]

So much for the solid state saber system for them next future builds... Gonna keep doing what they always do... Why not put this effort into making a new mode? Or polishing maps? Or both? Meh we all wanna relearn everything we learn every new build right guys? Basically every build means nothing, because in 1 - 2 months the entire system is overhauled (not entirely for the better most times) so all our learning and progress gets reset. Fun times...

Yeah but the current saber system is hot garbage.

 

[DaloLorn]

And so i think what some people here mean with those 70/30 or 60/40 ratios are how often "offense" i.e. trying to finish fights quickly should be used versus how often "defense" i.e. prolonging the fights should be used. While others seem to rather mean it as how often "swings" should be used versus how often "PBs" should be used. Not saying both aren't tied in current systems, but they certainly aren't 100% tied.

I think I prefer the latter interpretation - deliberately forcing a stalemate is one thing, while using defensive moves (PBs, parries, mblocks, etc. - I feel that parries are okay as they are, though) to help win a battle (not necessarily to singlehandedly win it, but they should be as valuable a skill as landing a good combo) should be another.

1.4 featured an instance where the two were very closely bound to each other if you were using yellow, and I can understand how that might not be a desirable choice without some further alterations - but it was also a time when defense was as strong as I've ever seen it in MB2.

 

[AaronAaron]

So much for the solid state saber system for them next future builds... Gonna keep doing what they always do... Why not put this effort into making a new mode? Or polishing maps? Or both? Meh we all wanna relearn everything we learn every new build right guys? Basically every build means nothing, because in 1 - 2 months the entire system is overhauled (not entirely for the better most times) so all our learning and progress gets reset. Fun times...

Just learn to adapt man. I would rather see a new system every 6 months than being stuck with the same system for years. And you do realise this is just a beta for the saber system? Why are you asking for new modes and polishing maps? Not all devs work on the same shit man.

 

[vasya]

Just learn to adapt man.

not very good advice. i can say for myself - 5-8 years ago i could adapt, no problem, i had time, but now since there is some more important stuff to do i just want to play. not learn over and over.
for example - other day Marvel Heroes (videogame, right) was updated with some huge patch which changed this and that. long story short - they deleted some bonuses for which ppl (me included) spent like...i don't know..50 hours atleast (rare sheet, yes). Now when i need to get same bonus (but now it will be on another item) it's easier to find another game.
point is - not everybody can and want do things which is not even close to be important.

IMHO as usual.

P.S. good work here Tempest. saber system should be improved i guess. whole post was an answer for "learn to adapt".

 

[SeV]

not very good advice. i can say for myself - 5-8 years ago i could adapt, no problem, i had time, but now since there is some more important stuff to do i just want to play. not learn over and over.
for example - other day Marvel Heroes (videogame, right) was updated with some huge patch which changed this and that. long story short - they deleted some bonuses for which ppl (me included) spent like...i don't know..50 hours atleast (rare sheet, yes). Now when i need to get same bonus (but now it will be on another item) it's easier to find another game.
point is - not everybody can and want do things which is not even close to be important.

IMHO as usual.

P.S. good work here Tempest. saber system should be improved i guess. whole post was an answer for "learn to adapt".

Why do you think Hex and the others decided that ITS ZE FINAL COONTDAUN. And what we gotta freeze it? It's precisely for this reason I guess. Since this is the case, it will probably take more time to get it out, more open beta tests and more work. Imagine if the saber system got frozen in 1.4.3 or 1.4.4 oh my god, *shiver*

Also, when I say frozen I am referring to massive changes to the meta. Small adjustments will still be possible and hopefully will happen as needed. Like adjusting for balance and so on. The idea is to have the framework fleshed out and the overall mechanics frozen, and then make small adjustments to balance and fix issues.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

As I've stated, the reason why the beta feels so spammy and broken, is specifically due to swingblock allowing it to become exactly that.

1) Swingblock should prevent the player from continuing a combo (But allow halfswings). You should make a conscious decision to risk getting slapped/mblocked for more damage/pressure, or making safe single swings/half siwngs. The way swingblock works right now is pretty terrible, at a certain level it becomes almost mandatory to swingblock all of your swings, and it is far more difficult to stop someone from spamming swingblock combos on you, than it is to swingblock combo someone else.

2) Perfect Parry, when I first had the idea for this mechanic and brought it to Tempest's attention, I remarked that it should cancel BOTH saberist's combos, and reset the fight for a moment. Making it a strong defensive tool, or to help prevent mindless spam. Cyan would be the only style *not* canceled by a perfect parry.

3) Increase slap cooldown. With the changes above, slap would start to become quite spammed, due to its insanely short cooldown. Slap needs to be a bit more risky, so I would advise 5-6 second cooldown. (Although keep in mind, the dual/staff saber kicks have significantly less range than the single slaps. You may need to add an extra effect to the dual/staff kicks or keep them on low CD.)

 

[handzummest]

is it just me, or has the camera angle during ydfa been locked? i used to be able to turn in mid air with it but now it forces me to do a 180 before i can turn, well after the downward swing is over.

 

[SeV]

As I've stated, the reason why the beta feels so spammy and broken, is specifically due to swingblock allowing it to become exactly that.

1) Swingblock should prevent the player from continuing a combo (But allow halfswings). You should make a conscious decision to risk getting slapped/mblocked for more damage/pressure, or making safe single swings/half siwngs. The way swingblock works right now is pretty terrible, at a certain level it becomes almost mandatory to swingblock all of your swings, and it is far more difficult to stop someone from spamming swingblock combos on you, than it is to swingblock combo someone else.

2) Perfect Parry, when I first had the idea for this mechanic and brought it to Tempest's attention, I remarked that it should cancel BOTH saberist's combos, and reset the fight for a moment. Making it a strong defensive tool, or to help prevent mindless spam. Cyan would be the only style *not* canceled by a perfect parry.

3) Increase slap cooldown. With the changes above, slap would start to become quite spammed, due to its insanely short cooldown. Slap needs to be a bit more risky, so I would advise 5-6 second cooldown. (Although keep in mind, the dual/staff saber kicks have significantly less range than the single slaps. You may need to add an extra effect to the dual/staff kicks or keep them on low CD.)

I agree with number two. Number 1 is interesting, but it can't possibly work in practice. Any competent saberist will disarm someone who even does two hit combos without swingblock. Even in the current systems I can routinely Mblock disarm the 2nd swing in someones combo by prediction. In tempests system the swings are slower too, which means this will be made easier. Without swingblocking... no sensible duelist will risk comboing. I don't want to eliminate comboing... just increase the viability of defensive measures like PB. Previously with Combo break, now with BP regen or ACM drain.

I've always thought slap CD was short and should be increased. However, I don't think it should be 5 or 6. At most 4 seconds imo. It should last a little more than the entire length of a full combo tbh.

 

[Darth Pujge]

Just learn to adapt man. I would rather see a new system every 6 months than being stuck with the same system for years.

To be honest I'd prefer a concrete saber system rather than changing up the current one every few months for the sake of having something new even if it makes dueling worse than before. "If it ain't broke then don't fix it."

 

[Tempest]

As I've stated, the reason why the beta feels so spammy and broken, is specifically due to swingblock allowing it to become exactly that.

It's actually more that there's no reliably consistent way to block chained swings at point blank/face hug range with crosshair-based aiming. Also, you can't actually do the fastest possible chaining if you are actually holding block at the point the saber hits. Non-swingblock swings will always out-chain swingblocked ones because of the delay between letting go of block and attacking while the non-swingblock swings go straight from attack to attack with no break inbetween.

1) Swingblock should prevent the player from continuing a combo (But allow halfswings). You should make a conscious decision to risk getting slapped/mblocked for more damage/pressure, or making safe single swings/half siwngs. The way swingblock works right now is pretty terrible, at a certain level it becomes almost mandatory to swingblock all of your swings, and it is far more difficult to stop someone from spamming swingblock combos on you, than it is to swingblock combo someone else.

This is just going to make the pace of dueling super sluggish TBH. It's an attempt at a solution to a problem that isn't actually the problem. It's also far from mandatory to swingblock every swing.

2) Perfect Parry, when I first had the idea for this mechanic and brought it to Tempest's attention, I remarked that it should cancel BOTH saberist's combos, and reset the fight for a moment. Making it a strong defensive tool, or to help prevent mindless spam. Cyan would be the only style *not* canceled by a perfect parry.

As Sev said (and I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it in our own discussions several times), there's no reliable/consistent way for this to work well.

3) Increase slap cooldown. With the changes above, slap would start to become quite spammed, due to its insanely short cooldown. Slap needs to be a bit more risky, so I would advise 5-6 second cooldown. (Although keep in mind, the dual/staff saber kicks have significantly less range than the single slaps. You may need to add an extra effect to the dual/staff kicks or keep them on low CD.)

I'm pretty sure that slap range doesn't change depending on the style (but maybe it has some weird interaction with the slapper's model or something, would have to go check code for it). I have stated a few times in other discussions that Slap needs some looking at (which is why I tried out the small knockback even when the opponent is blocking). I was also looking at possibly increasing the cooldown as well as having it so that if you get hit while slapping makes incoming damage increase during the cooldown or just having a multiplier increase for the hit. That'd make it a lot more of a mindful choice rather than something you just throw out because you can.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

It's actually more that there's no reliably consistent way to block chained swings at point blank/face hug range with crosshair-based aiming. Also, you can't actually do the fastest possible chaining if you are actually holding block at the point the saber hits. Non-swingblock swings will always out-chain swingblocked ones because of the delay between letting go of block and attacking while the non-swingblock swings go straight from attack to attack with no break inbetween.

And non-swingblocked swings can be slapped, or disarmed. You keep arguing that the faster non-swingblocked swings are more worth it, and they really aren't. The fights I have against good players will end up literally being 4 hit combo spam, in ANY patch where offense is decently strong, because swingblock is an enabler. Being able to PB more efficiently won't solve that problem.

This is just going to make the pace of dueling super sluggish TBH. It's an attempt at a solution to a problem that isn't actually the problem. It's also far from mandatory to swingblock every swing.

No it won't, not with high damages. It is essentially mandatory in your patch to swingblock every swing. Swingblock is simply too strong.

As Sev said (and I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it in our own discussions several times), there's no reliable/consistent way for this to work well.

It would give a momentary reset to the fight, whereas in your patch if you have less than 30 BP you're just dead regardless because of the ridiculous BP staggers/Parry disarms (Which I told you was a bad idea).

I'm pretty sure that slap range doesn't change depending on the style (but maybe it has some weird interaction with the slapper's model or something, would have to go check code for it). I have stated a few times in other discussions that Slap needs some looking at (which is why I tried out the small knockback even when the opponent is blocking). I was also looking at possibly increasing the cooldown as well as having it so that if you get hit while slapping makes incoming damage increase during the cooldown or just having a multiplier increase for the hit. That'd make it a lot more of a mindful choice rather than something you just throw out because you can.

It does change. Also if you're going to make it a more 'mindful' choice, then make swingblock a more 'mindful' choice god damn it. That is utterly stupid to nerf slap but not swingblock.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I agree with number two. Number 1 is interesting, but it can't possibly work in practice. Any competent saberist will disarm someone who even does two hit combos without swingblock. Even in the current systems I can routinely Mblock disarm the 2nd swing in someones combo by prediction. In tempests system the swings are slower too, which means this will be made easier. Without swingblocking... no sensible duelist will risk comboing. I don't want to eliminate comboing... just increase the viability of defensive measures like PB. Previously with Combo break, now with BP regen or ACM drain.

I've always thought slap CD was short and should be increased. However, I don't think it should be 5 or 6. At most 4 seconds imo. It should last a little more than the entire length of a full combo tbh.

Keep in mind, there is punishment for missing an Mblock, AND 'prediction' isn't reliable. Not to mention, I can choose to swingblock any swing in my combo, to cut my combo short for safety. I already combo without swingblocking much, unless my opponent also spams swingblocked combos, in which case I am forced to do the same. I believe it would work fine.

 

[DaloLorn]

It's actually more that there's no reliably consistent way to block chained swings at point blank/face hug range with crosshair-based aiming.

I can confirm this without a doubt. Getting backed up against a wall doesn't help either.

Also, you can't actually do the fastest possible chaining if you are actually holding block at the point the saber hits. Non-swingblock swings will always out-chain swingblocked ones because of the delay between letting go of block and attacking while the non-swingblock swings go straight from attack to attack with no break inbetween.

I haven't noticed any difference, to be honest.

This is just going to make the pace of dueling super sluggish TBH. It's an attempt at a solution to a problem that isn't actually the problem. It's also far from mandatory to swingblock every swing.

Until you remember that any competent duelist will quickly either mblock you or slap you down - depending on the proportion of swings you block, the latter variant doesn't even take that much skill! (Arguably, the less skilled duelists will slap more frequently and therefore more easily catch a non-swingblocked attack.) Unfortunately, this argument is a pretty solid counter for Achilles' proposal, but whatever.

Fact: Anyone who can consistently swingblock entire combos and uses that skill to batter down an opponent will beat any duelist that doesn't know how to do that, unless that duelist can consistently PB entire combos (incidentally, this coincides with my analysis of my duels with Aaron - between failing to catch even a single swing from him and being unable to break his offense with a slap, the most effective defense I've had was cyan parries, and even those couldn't get through him). Slap's role as an anti-spam mechanic falls apart miserably against such people.

As Sev said (and I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it in our own discussions several times), there's no reliable/consistent way for this to work well.

Sev said no such thing, actually. He said he agrees with the parry thing.

 

[SeV]

Sev said no such thing, actually. He said he agrees with the parry thing.

Actually me and temp did have some talks regarding this. The main point we talked about was how this perfect parry thing was unreliable. In other words its an almost entirely random mechanic. What I meant was that if perfect parry is a thing, then it makes sense for it to do something. It has a nice little effect and everything, but it is certainly not reliable, more of a random thing that happens on occasion. Of course you can play in a way which increases your chances of Perfect parrying the opponent by trying to mirror his combos, but this does not serve much of a purpose and is more trouble than its worth. My own opinion is that it is a rather useless mechanic currently, and you cannot compare it to something like PB. It is a little bit of flavour, but I don't think perfect parrying is something around which any amount of sabering should revolve. The fact that cyan has the combo break on Perfect parry is just its flavour, and it can be useful too for such a style, having combo break on perfect parries across the board is not really a huge deal for me but it would be a little annoying to get randomly staggered/combo break'd. If this happened to both parties however, then it would be a sort of flavour... but... I'm currently thinking why go through so much trouble for such an insignificant, almost redundant mechanic? In current beta Perfect parrying is in, but semi-PB is a far more important mechanic and should be there instead in the iteration we discussed before (end of swing transitions, perhaps tied to swingblock).

 

[DaloLorn]

I stand corrected, then.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Actually me and temp did have some talks regarding this. The main point we talked about was how this perfect parry thing was unreliable. In other words its an almost entirely random mechanic. What I meant was that if perfect parry is a thing, then it makes sense for it to do something. It has a nice little effect and everything, but it is certainly not reliable, more of a random thing that happens on occasion. Of course you can play in a way which increases your chances of Perfect parrying the opponent by trying to mirror his combos, but this does not serve much of a purpose and is more trouble than its worth. My own opinion is that it is a rather useless mechanic currently, and you cannot compare it to something like PB. It is a little bit of flavour, but I don't think perfect parrying is something around which any amount of sabering should revolve. The fact that cyan has the combo break on Perfect parry is just its flavour, and it can be useful too for such a style, having combo break on perfect parries across the board is not really a huge deal for me but it would be a little annoying to get randomly staggered/combo break'd. If this happened to both parties however, then it would be a sort of flavour... but... I'm currently thinking why go through so much trouble for such an insignificant, almost redundant mechanic? In current beta Perfect parrying is in, but semi-PB is a far more important mechanic and should be there instead in the iteration we discussed before (end of swing transitions, perhaps tied to swingblock).

Perfect Parry is only random at point blank, which was the entire purpose behind it. I wanted it as a safeguard against mindless point blank spam, ALONG with a change to swingblock/slap.

No more Semi-PB, ever. You should never be able to block while swinging. Parrying, PB, and footwork should be the only forms of defense.

At this point, I'm beginning to feel like we should just fix what was wrong with 1.3 again, I'm losing faith in this patch the more that it is changed.

 

[SeV]

Perfect Parry is only random at point blank, which was the entire purpose behind it. I wanted it as a safeguard against mindless point blank spam, ALONG with a change to swingblock/slap.

No more Semi-PB, ever. You should never be able to block while swinging. Parrying, PB, and footwork should be the only forms of defense.

At this point, I'm beginning to feel like we should just fix what was wrong with 1.3 again, I'm losing faith in this patch the more that it is changed.

It seems no matter what changes are made, you will always laud 1.3 as superior, which is strange sine you seem to be anti spam right now and 1.3 was a spammy, spammy patch. In any case, you are quite wrong about perfect parry. I think it's a crappy mechanic. First of all it is much more random than Semi-PB, occuring almost entirely at random and investing time and effort into forcing perfect parries does not yield anything. Comparing it to Semi-PB as a supporting defensive mechanic, it is vastly inferior. It is at best a flavour item and at worst a distracting, confusing element for newer players wondering wtf that blue flash is and what it really does. Implementing semi-PBs on return swings makes alot more sense because it enables skilled players to be more aggressive with their attacks while still leaving them open to timing errors during the swing startup and movement. Those two were the real problems with semi-PB. Also, as far as I can tell, by far the greatest amount of problems with Semi-PB arose from people who semi-PBd their badly timed swings during the start phase by preaiming the common positions. This was made apparent as soon as tempests beta came out, as the people who were used to ignoring swing timing got absolutely destroyed within a few seconds of dueling. Maintaining this element of timing, while allowing you to Semi-PB during returns and staggers, is a hundred times better than fiddling with an insignificant mechanic such as perfect parry. I'm a bit miffed about the fact that you think perfect parry would be able to act as a safeguard to point blank spam, even making allowances for changes to swingblock and slap, it seems like a strange way to go about it. You want to counteract spam by spamming? Because if you don't spam, there's no way you can make perfect parries act as you intend them to... but all you're doing is promoting spam all the same.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with spam itself. It is mindless, skill-less spam that is the problem. Spam that you cannot break. Everything should have weaknesses and in tempests system we're atleast getting options for dealing with spam too due to the swing timings. Never, ever, ever has perfect parry played any role in counteracting spam. It has only really promoted it as a playstyle choice for cyan...

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

It seems no matter what changes are made, you will always laud 1.3 as superior, which is strange sine you seem to be anti spam right now and 1.3 was a spammy, spammy patch. In any case, you are quite wrong about perfect parry. I think it's a crappy mechanic. First of all it is much more random than Semi-PB, occuring almost entirely at random and investing time and effort into forcing perfect parries does not yield anything. Comparing it to Semi-PB as a supporting defensive mechanic, it is vastly inferior. It is at best a flavour item and at worst a distracting, confusing element for newer players wondering wtf that blue flash is and what it really does. Implementing semi-PBs on return swings makes alot more sense because it enables skilled players to be more aggressive with their attacks while still leaving them open to timing errors during the swing startup and movement. Those two were the real problems with semi-PB. Also, as far as I can tell, by far the greatest amount of problems with Semi-PB arose from people who semi-PBd their badly timed swings during the start phase by preaiming the common positions. This was made apparent as soon as tempests beta came out, as the people who were used to ignoring swing timing got absolutely destroyed within a few seconds of dueling. Maintaining this element of timing, while allowing you to Semi-PB during returns and staggers, is a hundred times better than fiddling with an insignificant mechanic such as perfect parry. I'm a bit miffed about the fact that you think perfect parry would be able to act as a safeguard to point blank spam, even making allowances for changes to swingblock and slap, it seems like a strange way to go about it. You want to counteract spam by spamming? Because if you don't spam, there's no way you can make perfect parries act as you intend them to... but all you're doing is promoting spam all the same.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with spam itself. It is mindless, skill-less spam that is the problem. Spam that you cannot break. Everything should have weaknesses and in tempests system we're atleast getting options for dealing with spam too due to the swing timings. Never, ever, ever has perfect parry played any role in counteracting spam. It has only really promoted it as a playstyle choice for cyan...

Because 1.3 was at the very least stable. This patch is only becoming worse and more complicated.

Semi-PB is an utterly retarded mechanic, if you want to talk about 'confusion', the ability to semi-PB while running, or walking, or some how semi-PBing while swinging. Utterly nonsense. Combining offense with defense is a poor concept, especially when parry already exists. I find Perfect Parry to be far more reliable against multiple opponents than 'Semi-PB'.

I didn't say Perfect Parry would be a safe-guard against it, I stated it would be an additive anti-spam mechanic. The real enabler of spam is swingblock, and it has been that way even back in 1.3, which is what caused that patch to be so 'spammy'. It is actually not to stop spam reliably, but it is to make newer players who mindlessly spam swings have short breaks if they happen to PP. Also, you have literally just the same chance of PPing as you do Semi-PBing, when you're locked into a combo fest, you can only 'predict' what your opponent will use in their swing set, so you have the same chance of matching their combos as you do to semi-PB them, it is a different type of practice that you're probably not used to, it is especially easier with faster styles, which is more than 50% of the styles. But by spamming to match their combos, you end up slightly resetting the fight with the random PP, than the random semi-PB.

Skill-less spam is incredibly easy to counter. It is at the higher levels where spam becomes uncounterable, due to swingblock.

I recognize Sev, that you have always worshiped the PB, and Yellow. You may look down harshly upon someone like me who likes cyan (even though I nearly exclusively use yellow). However, you need to understand that swingblock is not a greatly implemented mechanic, it is an artificial skill-floor for new players, and a spam-enabler for good players.

In Tempest's patch, my duels with good players typically turn into either 2 types of fights:

1) A timing fight, which is what Tempest's fights with me turn into, which I enjoy.

2) A swingblock combo spam fight, which is what my fights with a few other saberists turned into, which I absolutely despise.



No, I'm afraid you won't stop spam until you change how swingblock works. It should be a mindful thing, not just a mandatory reflex.

 

[Darth Pujge]

Because 1.3 was at the very least stable. This patch is only becoming worse and more complicated.

Semi-PB is an utterly retarded mechanic, if you want to talk about 'confusion', the ability to semi-PB while running, or walking, or some how semi-PBing while swinging. Utterly nonsense. Combining offense with defense is a poor concept, especially when parry already exists. I find Perfect Parry to be far more reliable against multiple opponents than 'Semi-PB'.

I'm not a huge fan of either semi-pb or perfect parry. While semi-pb encouraged better timing on your swings, I personally felt that it just helped to stall duels massively, maybe it was just the many combined elements of mechanics and changes in e.g. 1.4.2 that caused blue vs cyan duels to last 5 minutes, and that semi-pb could function better in Tempest's build. Even then I've felt that one reason Tempest's build can end up flowing better is because semi-pb was removed.

In my opinion, perfect parry has always felt like an luck based mechanic that just causes confusion and adds some luck based elements to dueling that no one ever wanted. One example was when I tried to do some decent damage with red via parrying (I'm a bit shit with red btw), but my opponent managed to luck out with three perfect parries in a row, and with the really high swings drains on red I ended up eating shit due to luck. Another example involved a duel in which I was using cyan and if I remember correctly, my opponent was using yellow. The duel appeared to be an equal match as neither of us seemed to have been picking up a discernible lead against the other... at least it went like that until I managed to chug out three shitty ol' accidental perfect parries in fairly quick succession, which let me build enough acm to stomp him into the ground.

As far as cyan itself goes, I've always really enjoyed using it (probably my favourite saber style overall) but in these most recent patches I've been using it for it's nice combination of speed and damage, along with how it works nicely with default parrying. I couldn't give a shit or two about it's perk however, simply because it's built on such a random mechanic.