1.4.5 Open Beta Dueling Feedback

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Spaghetti

the grinch
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All dueling gameplay feedback for the current open beta should be posted in this thread. Any discussions related to general gameplay should go here.

Remember to follow the code of conduct and posting guidelines. Off topic posts will be deleted without warning. Please keep back and forth debating to a minimum as it makes parsing feedback much more difficult.
 

Helix

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  • Red is way too strong now due to staggers on every bodyhit. Would be bearable if PB zones weren't shortened.
  • The defensive styles (although buffed) are in a big disadvantage due to the system promoting the aggressive sabering.
  • If you manage to lower someone's BP to a stagger threshold, he's 99% dead because you can continue up the combo and finish him while he's staggered.
 

AaronAaron

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Quick few things:

- Remove the stagger at low BP. Its really pointless when the 'Disarm at Parry' thing is around,
- Make red's halfswings like they were in 1.4.4
- Lower the BP dmg multiplier to 1.3
- Make the PB angles bigger
- Lower Cyan's AP

Just tested blue yet again and I love it the way it is.

Note: All of the things I have listed may change depending on how I feel after duelling several people. I just tried duelling Alice/SeV/Sezer with Blue and it made me reconsider what I wrote above.
 
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Stassin

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Since i did test it, might as well post these general feelings regarding what i think is wrong with it (for all styles):

- Biggest gripe by far clearly remains how slow chains have become, regardless of whether it is balanced between styles or between offense/defense etc., not talking about balance here. Overall this very much dumbs down the saber system, making it plainly easier due to overall lower gameplay speed while keeping similar tactics from before (looking for interruptions, footwork...), as well as making it less diverse since chaining is much closer to halfswinging in terms of speed.
- The staggers on bodyhits when reaching very low BP and instant disarms on parries with 0 BP are pretty archaic and gaudy, compared to having no staggers at all (which allowed to some extent to hide your BP amount from players with poor game sense) and the single subtle feature we had before which simply combo-broke players with 0 BP upon parries.
 
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Played for a few rounds and here are my thoughts.
This is just first impressions. I am sure I will be wrong about a few things xD

1. Seems kinda sluggish for my taste. From a gameplay point of view this seems fine. But as a player, it feels like I have lost a certain level of control over my character.

2. Spam is back again. You can easily swingblock everyhit, and with pb-counters taken out you just parry everything anyways. Although slap does give you some distance now.

3. Red. You gotta get creative with it to hit someone who pblocks well. Makes in damn near impossible to kill someone who can pblock well. But is very good agaisnt inexperienced players.

So far due to the sluggishness, I'm not too much of a fan of this current iteration. Things may change as time goes on though
 
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man, cyan is tu stronk now, with all these slow combo chains it's kinda ez to get AP with shadowswings (doesn't mention ez body hits since cyan has wide angle).
also red feels useless (i may say stagger is op but compared to whole style - nope)
same with blue although not as much as red.
yellow is SHOOOOOOW SHLOOOOOOOW.

like new bp drain on dfa and damage indicator.
but basically - i think it's more to balance now than it was before.

p.s. plz bring back an old A-halfswing animation. srsly. just try it - u will see that animation stumbles because saber change his position before play animation. it's a waste of some precious 0,3 second.
 
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Eh, it's okay. I'd need to play more in order to find something I like about it. I don't necessarily think it dumbs down the saber system, as it does make it harder for people with less experience in the saber combat aspect, and while I appreciate trying to make it more evident that skill can outmatch numbers, less skill, etc, I can see that going this route is going to end up scaring new players, or people who don't care to work up the effort to learn the new saber system away from Sith/Jedi, or even the game itself; If you continue to make it much harder than this, I don't think that new players who come in here, looking for a good Star Wars game(cause, let's be honest, there hasn't been a 'good' Star Wars game since JK3 first came out, and the dawn of MB2) will quickly find that the aspect of the Star Wars universe that drew them to the game(mostly Jedi/Sith) is near impossible to play against anybody with a lick of experience.

On the other hand, this will probably divert people away from Jedi/Sith, which is something that is sorely needed in open. The fact that I can just walk into a 32 man server, and see that one or both of the teams is almost entirely Jedi/Sith is just unacceptable. I'm GLAD that making the saber system harder will divert people to the Gunner classes, but I'm not glad that it might turn some people away from the game entirely, after they rage quit a few times.

Now, onto the stuff I really like:

Now that almost ALL saber swings are slow as hell, forcewhore is so much more viable as an actual team player in open, and I loooooooovvvvveeeeeeeee it.

Yeah, that's about it.
 

Sammy

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Feels too sluggish.. Duels last 4 seconds sometimes, I just can't find much fun with it. Perhaps I need to adjust to it, but it feels a bit out of place and I can't pinpoint the issue. I feel like I'm dueling in the ocean.
 
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What i liked: dueling is variative, requires ingenuity to defeat certain tactics, duels last ~6 seconds, stagger on MBlocks, trade of BP in exchange for ACM on certain styles, stagger on low BP, duels look realistic
What i disliked: skillcap dropped drastically. Easy spam (swinglbocking requires little to no skill) encourages running and shadowswinging, duels look like the base JA. Drains on swings do not nerf the spam, how they were supposed to do.
as a result:
- cyan and duals are way too overpowered,
- red is shit (getting rekt by any style), but looks nice - slow and powerful how it is supposed to be.

IMO, if you make the delay between consecutive swings lower everything will be back to normal. Faster initial swings should fix the problem for Red
 
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I agree with foggy. Cyan and duals are still the spam to win styles. Red is just garbage. Huge damage and the perk but you dont even get to attack your opponent. The only way i imagine red working right now is trying to mblock and counnow but good luck mblocking every swing. But im not sure if initial swings should be faster for red. With this kit it will be just so annoying to deal with. Why not just make it a bit faster and always stagger on third swing swing like it was earlier?
 
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I wouldn't call cyan "spam to win" style. It is rather "hit and run" style - its speed and range is just perfect for that. Duals just are way too easy to handle in beta. You can't outspam them with any style, despite huge drains on swings. In current build duals are ridiculously fast and hard to swingblock - that makes them somewhat skill demanding and they can be countered with the right play with blue/red or staff.
BTW, didn't devs claim that they won't touch dueling system anymore? Why did they change their mind. 1.4 is more or less balanced.
 
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I like most of changes but there are some issues:

- Red seems to be like in baseJKA. Against good pblocker it's not very useful. Also red counters are too slow. Unless you do mblock+pblock, you will get hit between pblock and your counter if enemy continues the combo. Also, it's very weak against spam, red user is forced to retreat and yaw the first attack and hope to stagger the enemy. But maybe it was intended?I don't know, but I still prefer 1.4.4 red.

- Consecutive swings seem to be very very powerful which may encourage spam. But still, if you can pblock them then you will be fine.

- Also, system encourages shadowswinging which is bad. However, this may not be an issue as in open mode it is not a viable way of fightning unless you are in 1 vs 1 situation.

- I am not sure when it comes to stagger at low bp. You should consider deleting that feature. We already have stagger on mblock+pblock on swingblocked swing and red stagger (which is cool imo).
 
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DaloLorn

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- Also, system encourages shadowswinging which is bad. However, this may not be an issue as in open mode it is not a viable way of fightning unless you are in 1 vs 1 situation.

I don't see why it should be any different in open compared to duel mode. (I think I've heard enough to understand why it will be different, but...)

- I am not sure when it comes to stagger at low bp. You should consider deleting that feature. We already have stagger on mblock+pblock on swingblocked swing and red stagger (which is cool imo).

Yeah, that's just a no-recovery zone. Even losing your saber on a parry isn't quite so bad (either stop parrying or start evading), but you're not going to recover if you keep getting staggered.
 

SK5

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It feels fresh and fluid, im happy with it but i need to play more to get a final opinion on it.
 

AaronAaron

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New thoughts:


- Blue is perfect. With the new pb zones, it really does take a lot of skill to PB opponents which is awesome! It feels like im playing as obi wan the whole time. Very nice. I think Blue will become my fav style now.

- Cyan is a bit meh. Its speed and damage is too much tbh. Reduce the dmg by a bit please.

- Staff feels good. It actually takes skill to duel with now. You have to be careful if you play too much offense.

- Duals feels good too. Again, its just like staff.

- Yellow is clearly the strongest in this update. I only ever see people hit and run which kinda makes the fight completely boring. Its chained swings deal so much damage ( 4 chained hits = 80BP lost). You should probably lower the damage on yellow because I feel so cheap when I use it.

- Red is cool. Just bring back 1.4.4 halfswings and bring back the counter after a swing so you have a chance against medium styles.

- Purple is just fine.


Overall, amazing update. Its VERY skill based so I love it. I think the BP dmg x thing should stay the same as it is now. Thanks again, Tempest.


* I will probably give more of my opinions later on in the week, so stuff might change for me *
 
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After playing more all I can say is that's a very good system.
I see only 2 problems:
1. Red should have its halfswings back
2. Stagger when low on bp should be removed

- Some people complain about pblock zones, there might be an issue there, should be looked into.

I changed my mind when it comes to the damage done by the consecutive swings as wel as overall damage. It should remain as it is. If someone can't defend himself he should die quickly. What's more if you decreased global damage then blue would be OP in right hands. Honestly I am fed up with 1.4.4 long duels only because someone spams blue, staff or dual. And mblocking them to end fight quickly is quite tricky. Now if they screw up, they die quickly, and that is how it supposed to be. Thumbs up for Tempest, BEST UPDATE imo.
 
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SeV

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I already gave a bunch of feedback in the closed beta thread, so I won't repeat those points here. These are merely two vital conclusions I have drawn so far that I believe nobody else have pointed out.


1. Semi-PB should be available during all staggers and on Swingblocked returns.

I don't want Semi-PB to be available while running, walking or at the start of a swing. This is to punish bad play and make timing more relevant. One of the good things about 1.4.5 is that all the ppl who just attack mindlessly without a feeling for timing get punished heavily. I made this mistake too. This is great and needs to be kept. But I also thing semi-PB needs to be available in staggers and on returns. The stagger thing is crucial to me. I kind of like them, and I also like the disarm on 0 BP parries. But some form of PB should be available during staggers, and I dont think full PBs should, so semi-pbs it is.

2. PBs should receive a significant buff in their reward. Combo breaking doesn't work well and most ppl seem to dislike the ACM drain on PB.
So you need to implement the BP regen idea on PB very, very swiftly. It is essential to maintaining a balance between offense and defense viability. Right now, with these multipliers (which I like btw, fast duels high risk YAY fun and good for open too), defense is being trivialized very much. Hitting a PB is decently challenging due to yaws, new anims and so on, but when you hit a PB it doesn't even compare to getting 1 swing on your opponent in terms of usefulness.

Look at it this way. Right now, the system is favoring offense like 80-20. PBs still matter a little, but you can forego them almost completely if you hit your offensive timings correctly. I really, REALLY like how attacking works in this system. I love the high AP, higher risk, punishment for bad timing and all that, but I really need PB to reward me more. I am thinking something like an order of magnitude more than I suggested in the closed beta thread, since the AP multiplier and ACM stuff all works together to skew the system far towards offense, leaving defensive skills like PBing at the wayside in favour of simply dodging or out spamming your opponent. I find the new offense fun, but it needs to be more balanced like 60/40 or even 50/50.

Since we're going for a volatile system where missing a timing punishes you heavily, and attacks drain alot of BP so duels are fast, PBing should likewise be a big deal just like hitting attacks are a big deal. The whole point of having a high AP multiplier is to make mistakes count for more, and to allow skilled ppl to power through non skilled ppl quicker. Problem is defense hasn't been accounted for, and is still adjusted for when attacks were alot weaker and it took ages to kill. However, now you can kill in 5 seconds easily if opponent makes a mistake. In such a volatile environment, I believe that PBs need to be buffed more to fit in with the increased dmg of swings. Hitting a good combo, getting an interrupt with nice timing, Mblock into stagger into counter and all that... is heavily rewarded which is good cause that is rewarding skill. But the defensive skills are not rewarded nearly as much, since PB is tuned for the old system while offense is tuned for the new system.

Thus, my point is that PBs aka skillful defense should be buffed in some way.

I suggested the BP regen before and I think that is a good place to start. However, I also think adding -1 ACM drain across the board is a salient and reasonable thing, since even without ACM you can deal massive dmg, so you won't run into the yellow turtle problem we had in 1.4. Even achilles should recognize my point here. The two things together would make for a much more balanced system I think. It has to be tested ofc, but the sooner offense and defense is balanced the better, since the system being skewed so much towards offense trivializes defense.

+2 BP; -2 ACM to opp for PBing blue. (Tuned down a bit cause of wet noodle AP, up if blue AP is upped)
+4 BP; -2 ACM, to opp for PBing duals/cyan
+5 BP; -1 ACM to opp for PBing medium/heavy styles

Thus, hitting a PB partially negates the benefits of an opponents attack (BP dmg and ACM), which leads it to being worth practicing and using. These values with this system means that hitting all PBs will sustain you, but missing a few will still get your BP rekt cause of the high AP multiplier. The brilliant thing is that errors fuck you over, good play rewards you heavily, and the system is volatile, meaning you cant go on autopilot like old builds and just drool and go through the motions with ur brain turned off. No, with this you have to pay attention and use all the skills.. It's so delicious.

So for example.
Yellow 2 hit combo.
11 BP dmg +3 ACM on first hit
2nd hit is PB'd.
+5 BP to you, -1 ACM to opponent.

This still means attacking is strong because it doesn't just cancel out attacks, but provide reasonable benefits so that its worth doing. Right now you're almost better off ignoring PB and going for offense timings almost exclusively, throwing in a PB mblock here and there to get a stagger and just attack like a maniac. I like the attacking like a maniac part, I like high dmg offense. I really liked the old red style for this reason, since it was an attack beast that plowed through ppl if they were unaware/inattentive. The new systems attacking gives me the same feeling. The problem is that defense is too weak to compare to the increased offense, thus skewing the balance and throwing some skills into near uselessness.
 
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When I first heard blue changes I already knew I gonna hate this.
RIP agressive blue. I have spent 3 years developing my style and now im getting this "walk backwards and pb" thingy. Now it feels like I suddenly lost something important.

Even though some things are good in this update, and I might be able to like it someday, it just doesn't feels right yet. Need more testing.


Later on this week I'll write a huge post describing my thoughts on this idea of "baseline playstyle" thing I keep hearing about. Like this nice little thoughts that blue should be a "defensive" style, or whatever. (Pro tip: defensive / agressive is how you play your style, not the characteristic of the style itself.)

Ofc I will defend agressive blue, and spit some more sour hatred itt. I just can't help myself.

WHOEVER DID THIS TO ME SHOULD BURN IN HELL
 
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