1.4.5 Open Beta Dueling Feedback

[{Δ} Achilles]

ha HA i EDITED IN that POINT right AFTER i POSTED that, BEFORE you REPLIED (edit: I mean, about Chivalry. As you mentioned.)

You have... an increasingly bad habit.

 

[Vanomas]

you're 14 you need your beauty sleep to grow up healthy and strrrrrrrrong

12*

Amazing feedback man! Keep it up!

thanks man!

 

[Aizencin]

I tried the new blue for awhile and overall I feel that it is pretty decent. I really like its concept and how it plays in general, since I am a guy that has always liked PB as a skill. Even before aimed PB, I was the guy that wanted PBs to matter and I spent time trying to find the best ways to PB. Blue playstyle requires finesse for swing timing interrupts and PBs + PB counters. You can't just take 4 hit combos and expect to survive, you have to rely on both PB and blues fast wet noodle swing interrupts for it to work. Neither can you just mindlessly retardo spam your way to victory using one or two sets of simple combos and just ignore skills like PB entirely.

In its current state, I think blue is slightly undertuned, but I like the general concept of it and its one of my favorite new styles to play due to its emphasis on PB and PB countering, and timing interrupts.

My idea for tuning it wtihin the tempest system would be to just make slight adjustments to stats.
Blue AP 4 -> 5
Blue swingcost 5 -> 4

Another option would be to leave it as is, but give it +1 ACM on PBs.

Yet another option would be to give it free mblocks like yellow, but I think just slightly tweaking the stats would do the trick since it feels decent right now. If attacks were slightly cheaper and did a bit more dmg, you would have an easier time finishing opponents off while not raping your own BP too much. The overall idea and feel of blue is to my liking, so I don't want to mess that up.




Huhuhu, Enjoy my fun little idea. Wall of text spam.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I might aswell post the idea that has been rattling around inside my head for awhile regarding perks and a bit of UI revamp + some other stuff. Since this will be the last major update, I figured why not post this. Maybe it will inspire something positive. My ideas have often been adopted in the past, just not wholly or entirely. So even if the below cannot be implemented I hope you can find some inspiration there.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



For a very long time now, several years probably, I have had an idea about making buyable perks. This was partially inspired by OJPs buyable saber forms. The thing here is to give people the choice within their chosen stance, but to also limit that choice reasonably and make it balanced. The problem with this idea is that it will most likely require a UI modification, but we have talked previously of simplifying Lightsaber def and attk by making it a single column just like with weapons. So just like E-11 or Pistol, you would have Lightsaber 1,2,3 as a jedi/sith. You would then have pickable lightsaber styles on the side under the saber hilt selector. Lightsaber 1 would give you Def1+1 Style, Lightsaber 2 would give you def2 and the ability to choose two styles. Lightdsaber 3 = Def3 and 3 styles. Doing it this way simplifies the selection process, makes it clearer and cleaner on the UI too, and frees up space for my perk idea.

If we assume that the Defense column will become the Lightsaber weapon column we would free up alot of space without even modifying the UI. It is also possible to add Deflect to the Lightsaber column, but this would limit modification. Instead I propose a new column below. Space enough to add speed as a neutral force power for sith, and add a non damaging force lightning (stun) to the jedis. Like the legendary Shia dude said, JUST DO IT. Since both sides receive equally it will not skew sides in any direction. It also makes sense from a movie/canon perspective. Why can't sith move swiftly? They are supposedly trained more in the martial arts of lightsaber combat to kill jedi, so them having smth like speed makes alot of sense.


In addition to the above, I would like to bring back a better saber throw and merge it with the deflect column, renaming it to something like Expertise and sticking it under Lightsaber to indicate that it increases your expertise in handling a lightsaber. In addition, Expertise will allow you to more swiftly retrieve your saber after being disarmed. Expertise 3 wiil allow instant retrieval, also on ST but will ofc cost a bit more too since it also gives deflect 3. The main idea is for it to be something like special saber handling skills that a lightsaber focused jedi/sith would train in.

So you get smth like this.

[Force speed] or [Force Stun]
[Form choice 1]
[Form choice 2]
[Lightsaber]
[Expertise]

The perks will be renamed to forms and will differ based on what styles you choose. Saber styles will still retain some inherent perks like they have currently, but Forms will be supplements to further customize playstyle. This is obviously a large overhaul that will require some thought and testing, so what I suggest below is merely a starting point for adjustments/inspiration. I know the system is nearly complete so springing something like this on you all of a sudden is a bit ***** and it makes implementation of this rather unlikely, unfortunately.

First, before we look at what each form does, let us establish the restrictions. The styles you choose enable the choice of certain lightsaber forms. Some lightsaber forms can be used with multiple styles, while others cannot, and you are not restricted to the benefits of one form per style. For example if you choose yellow and blue along with Shii-cho and Soresu, you will be able to gain the benefits of shii-cho while using blue, along with the benefits conferred by Soresu. Depending on what lightsaber styles you select, the two Form choice fields change. In addition, the second form choice only becomes available at Lightsaber 3 along with the third style (to expand your choice of forms).

Blue: Form I, (Shii-Cho), Form III (Soresu)

Cyan: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form II (Makashi)

Yellow: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form II (Makashi), Form V (Djem-So), Form VI (Niman)

Red: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form IV (Ataru), Form V (Djem-So)

Purple: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form IV (Ataru), Form VII (Vaapad)

White: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form VI (Niman), Form III (Soresu)

Green: Form I (Shii-Cho) + Jar'kai (Inherent form)


So choosing a lightsaber style will give you access to its forms, and picking a form will confer benefits on styles beholden to said form. Shii-cho is the basic lightsaber form first taught to all younglings, and as such it is available for all styles.

Form I (Shii-Cho)
Philosophy: The basic style. It's philosophy is simply to reinforce the basics and make them stronger. Players who specialize in Shii-cho will find their fundamentals enhanced.

Mblocks cost nothing.
PB+MBlock+Counter = +2 ACM in addition to whatever else is gained from the swing.

Form II (Makashi)
Philosophy: Elegant fencing style designed for lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. Focuses on swing timing, parrying and the dance of dueling.

Reduces 33% of ACM bonus to parries from opponents
Increases 33% of the ACM bonus to parries to opponents
PB+Counter gives +2 ACM even if parried or PB'd.

Form III (Soresu)
Philosophy: Wait and see, defense over offense. Take advantage of the opponents errors and openings with PB counters.

PBs allow you to insta counter.
PB drains (9 base + 1 per 2 ACM) - Can trigger BP related staggers.
Double PB within the same combo = Short stagger.

Form IV (Ataru)
Philosophy: Aeril attacks, aggressive style. Dodging for defense rather than blocking. A quick burn, mutual destruction. Not a sustain style, more of a berserker style.

Slowly regenerates BP in the air as long as jumps aren't force jumps beyond tapping for a milisec. Like, as soon as you hear the force sound, about 5 fp.
BP regenerated in the air is drained from FP in a 1-2 ratio. 1 BP for 2 FP. Regen rate is similar to current def1 rate or slightly slower.
Aerial attacks deal increased damage. (Something like 1.2x of all current modifiers).
Ground attacks deal less damage. (Something like 0.7x of all current modifiers)

Form V (Djem-So)
Philosophy: Offense over defense. The opposite of Soresu. This style takes the initiative rather than giving it away. Aggression, burning, fighting power.

Consecutives deal +2 additional BP damage and give +2 ACM per swing in the chain after the first hit. So for red 13,15,17 instead of 13,13,13. And ACM wise +3,+2,+2 instead of +3,+1+1.
Halfswing multiplier lowered so that they deal -2 or even less BP Dmg and only give you +1 ACM.
You take an additional +1 BP dmg from fast styles, +2 from Medium styles and +3 from heavy styles. Also, 4 BP Bleeds through your PBs since your focus is on offense and not defense.

Forn VI (Niman)
Philosophy: Jack of all trades, master of none. Toolkit meister, diplomat style.

PBs drain 2 BP + 1 per 2 ACM from opponent.
2 BP bleed through enemy PBs.
Mblocks give +1 ACM and drain -1 ACM from the opponent.
PB+Counters give an additional +1 ACM even if parried of PB'd.
Consecutive swings give +1 to BP dmg, so for yellow 11,12,13,14.
halfswings after the first swing deal +1 BP dmg and keep stacking like consecutives. The two also stack together, so halfswings also buff BP dmg of next consecutive and vice versa.
Enemy attacks deal 2 BP dmg through your PBs.

Form VII (Vaapad)
Philosophy: Similar to Djem-So in that it is aggressive and wild.

Deals (6 + 1 per ACM) BP through PB - Can trigger BP related staggers
Cartwheels are free and you can regen BP during them at the cost of FP if FP is available, similar to the Ataru regen.
Cartwheel anim plays twice as fast, allowing the Vaapad user to cartwheel to the side and attack more unpredictably.
Non-force jumps boost AP to 1.1x if 1.0x is normal.
Chained vaapad halfswings give +1 BP to the next attack.


Slightly modified the styles to exclude some of the stuff gained from choosing forms. Close to remaining the same.

• Blue
  • Swing count of 2
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 50%
    
  • Defense Rating: Increased by 5%
  • 20% ACM bonus on specials
  • Loses 3 ACM when body hit
• Cyan
  • Swing count of 4
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 22%
    
  • Defense Rating: Decreased by 5%
    
  • All swings can combo break on Perfect Parry
  • 75% damage on consecutive swings
    
  • Loses 4 ACM when body hit
• Yellow
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 8%.
  • Defense Rating: Unchanged
    
  • Swing count of 4
  • Drains 4 ACM on a PB counter body hit
• White
  • Swing count of 4
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 18%
    
  • Defense Rating: Decreased by 3%
  • Mblock related staggers are buffed compared to other styles
    
  • Mblock Vs Swingblock
    • Gain 3 ACM
    • Drain 3 ACM
  • Large block radius.
• Green
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 10%
    
  • Defense Rating: Unchanged
    
  • Swing count of 5
  • All swings 0.75x damage without ACM
    
  • Special moves have 50% of their ACM multiplier added into their damage
  • Loses 4 ACM on body hit
• Red
  • Swing count of 3
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 13%
    
  • Defense Rating: Decreased by 2%
    
  • Being PB counter body hit drains 2 ACM
  • Doesn't lose BP when Mblocked on swingblocks
• Purple
  • Swing count of 3
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 15%
    
  • Defense Rating: Unchanged
  • Being PB counter body hit drains 3 ACM

I like the idea of implementing saberforms in that game, i would love if someday we have a sabersystem like this, yours looks great, but ill give a few notes in your system because im a phreak in saberforms. (All of the paragraphs are just personal opinions except the first one).

1 - Its true that shii choo is a basic saberform but it can be great if you master it, i just dont like the perks that you gave, because considering that shii cho only trains in how to make and defend against basic hits, an mblock perk doesnt sound good to me, instead ill make it to be swing restricted, with only a,d,w and begin able o use only one diagonal hit in a combo (i dont know if that is possible in this game tho). and in the defense they looked for block basic hits, against precise hits they used to dodge it with acrobatic, also shii cho is the best form against multiple opponents and most of shii cho users focused on the back as a primordial angle, so considering this 3 facts, i will also add a perk where if you get hit while running, the damage will be reduced at least to the damage you take if you are walking, so it will be easier to hit enemy's back and dodge and that stuff (you can watch all of this paragraph in the grievous vs fisto fight).

2 - For me, cyan fits more for juyo and purple for makashi, because juyo for me is basically hit so fast that you wont let the enemy hit you, just like spammy 1.3 cyan, and makashi sounds more for makashi to me because its based on precise hits and with purple you get 1acm when you hit, however, i get your points there, because cyan used and now has got parry perks plus not speed reduction, which fits for makashi and purple can stagger throught pbs now, this paragraph was just a personal opinion.

3 - White style is also jar'kai, jar'kai is just a name gave to saberists that didnt use a single saber as his main weapon, this includes duals and also staff (ex: exar kun, zannah, maul used jar kai with staff, one mixed with djem so, other with soresu and other with juyo) so what i will make is get white with saber form I, form VI and form III, and duals with form I, form VI and form VII, anyways, i get your point in that staff should be defensive and duals offensive, and i agree with that, but i will also consider add more versatity to it since most of staff users in canon SW used offensive styles, and most of duals users used ataru.

4 - Ill add the Sokan saberform which a style that is based in use the enviroment against the enemy (which obi wan used against anakin for example), which would be get by form I, form III and form IV

 

[DaloLorn]

1) This would, I suppose, add more variety to the forms... but it could also be abused.

2) Yeah, I think Makashi is better matched by cyan. Juyo doesn't really have an explicitly matching style at the moment - if I had to pick some, I'd go with red, duals and purple, but...

3) Jar'kai is a little generic, yes.

4) I don't see how you could translate that into new gameplay mechanics. We already can or can't use the environment, depending on our Force powers, our skill level and the surrounding terrain. (Blue lunge, push and stuff can be used to toss people to their deaths, and occasionally a map has a place where other influences like doors and elevators can be used to kill people.)

Also, I'm surprised you didn't bring up Shien.

 

[Aizencin]

1) This would, I suppose, add more variety to the forms... but it could also be abused.

2) Yeah, I think Makashi is better matched by cyan. Juyo doesn't really have an explicitly matching style at the moment - if I had to pick some, I'd go with red, duals and purple, but...

3) Jar'kai is a little generic, yes.

4) I don't see how you could translate that into new gameplay mechanics. We already can or can't use the environment, depending on our Force powers, our skill level and the surrounding terrain. (Blue lunge, push and stuff can be used to toss people to their deaths, and occasionally a map has a place where other influences like doors and elevators can be used to kill people.)

Also, I'm surprised you didn't bring up Shien.

Remove the force focus of blue and implement into it, and also give perks that buff force to the style, like faster fp regen, force block buff, lower force cost etc

I didnt include shien because already is lol

 

[----Kas----]

Remove the force focus of blue and implement into it, and also give perks that buff force to the style, like faster fp regen, force block buff, lower force cost etc

I do not like the idea.

 

[SeV]

Discussion about yaw, fixing the hitbox abuse. Posting my reply to tempest here as reference.

----

I like that aiming your swings has an impact on their performance.
After a little think, I don't think this should be fixed, since it is a nice part of an entire skillset of learning how to aim each swing in the best way possible.
I do not like random yawing giving benefits, but aiming swings left if you're swinging left, and right if you're swinging right, makes sense.
The old yaw had an impact on HP, and speed that didn't seem based on hitbox aim but just at the speed with which you could rape your mouse.
What I would like is not that kind of yaw, but simply the skill of aiming the swings. I think a relatively large skill will be buried if we fix the hitbox thing, which is why I
suggested the speed thing to make hitboxed swings a smidge less damaging because of their slightly increased speed.

If however you intend to remove this subskillset, you would have to do something about swingspeeds for all styles. They would have to be completely equalized, and possibly speed adjusted again.
I like the way it is right now, because a skilled player who chooses his own swings with care, can interrupt an enemy combo, out speed him and so on. If the aimed hitbox skill is removed, then
a big incentive to keep your mouse moving and active is gone. I find this a bit sad, as it simplifies attacking too much in my eyes.
I would prefer if you could somehow make this into a domesticated feature, though i have no idea how. I only know that I want the aiming part of it to remain salient for attacking purposes.
It makes sense in theory and practice, that a well aimed swing will outperform a randomly performed, lazy swing.
Your Collision PB will go some way towards helping with the yaw issues that ppl seem to have, and in the old system once the HP drain from poking was removed, there wasn't rly any benefit to raping your mouse
other than looking weird and potentially confusing your opponent. In your system, there is even less benefit because swings are slower and if someone is just swinging his mouse around spastically,
all you need to do is time a swing correctly and end him in a few seconds. It was much harder to get around yaw spazzing in 1.3 for example and I don't think this is a big deal.

So to sum it up, I would like to keep the aimed attacks, possibly even to turn it into a feature which will add another layer of skill to attacking, since it will be kind of one dimensional if you remove
yawing and the associated skills. My first idea is to keep it as is, and make adjustments to the game so that it works with consistency for all swings, make normal swings slightly slower if needed to compensate.
My goal here is to make attacking a skillful endeavour and not just a coma inducing button mashing fest. To be specific, this would entail the following.
WA+W+WD =Aim down and left, straight down as far as possible, or right accordingly. For A+D it would simply be left and right of the body.
For Uppercuts if possible, change them so that aiming up and left+right is the best way. You Can kind of use the PB zones as reference of where I would like the aim to be at for an improved speed swing.
I also thought about tying it to PB zones somehow, like directly. So that you don't just have optimal zones for defending, but also for attacking.
These zones would be different, and wider like squares so that even if someone moves you still have a good chance to hit them in the zone if you keep your aim.
Of course, that idea is very complicated and I just threw it in here for reference.
The main thing for me is keeping the aimed hitbox skill and defining some rules for it, cleaning it up, domesticating it, if that is possible.

 

[DaloLorn]

Remove the force focus of blue and implement into it, and also give perks that buff force to the style, like faster fp regen, force block buff, lower force cost etc

I didnt include shien because already is lol

Blue hasn't had a force focus boost since 1.4.3, and good riddance to it. (It's not so bad when you're fighting a Jedi, but any Sith worth their salt will just spam grip and lightning when they're using blue - unless, of course, they're deliberately refusing to take advantage of it.) Besides which, that's more up Niman's alley, and certainly has no obvious connection to 'using the environment'.

And no, Shien is not in there at all. (Granted, this 'may' have something to do with the fact that Shien would be anti-gunner with very few dueling buffs... deflect and stuff.)

 

[Aizencin]

Blue hasn't had a force focus boost since 1.4.3, and good riddance to it. (It's not so bad when you're fighting a Jedi, but any Sith worth their salt will just spam grip and lightning when they're using blue - unless, of course, they're deliberately refusing to take advantage of it.) Besides which, that's more up Niman's alley, and certainly has no obvious connection to 'using the environment'.

And no, Shien is not in there at all. (Granted, this 'may' have something to do with the fact that Shien would be anti-gunner with very few dueling buffs... deflect and stuff.)

Shien = saber deflect, lol, plus the sokan thing, i just gave an idea on how it could be, so game will have every saberform except dun motch

 

[Starushka]

This is not an RPG. The build you choose but mainly how you utilize it, your actions on battlefield determines which Form you're using. That's the beauty of mb2 - complete freedom, without artificial borders.

@SeV You mentioned what ideally the attack-defense ratio should be close to 50/50 in perfect saber system. That's the main issue i have with some of your suggestions. 50/50 or even 60/40 leads to prolonged duels where defense is so strong that people just stare at each other for minutes. I am not even mention the pace of open mode suffering greatly.
I think the perfect ratio should be around 65/35, close to 70/30. Mind you, i am not the fan of brainless spam, but attack should be always prefered in perfect system (atleast for open mode).

@Tempest You put so much effort there, hats off to you.
++ I really like the visual part. Decent animation changes.
++ I enjoy global damage increase. Fast duels, 1 - 2 mistakes determine the winner. Perfect.
+ BP cost for special moves is alright.
- Stagger on low bp is bad. Been there already, let's not repeat the mistakes of the past.
- - I am not agree with having only slow chains. I think current chain speed perfectly fits the swingblock mechanic, which we should improve especially visual feedback. So it's about once you tapped block button during attack, your next consecutive swing will be slower (just like right now with regular swings). Regular chains should have something like 15-20% speed buff.

 

[Tempest]

So to sum it up, I would like to keep the aimed attacks, possibly even to turn it into a feature which will add another layer of skill to attacking, since it will be kind of one dimensional if you remove
yawing and the associated skills.

Just to clarify, I'm not removing yawing as a viable tactic. I'm addressing specific behavior(s) with the swings and hitboxes that fall very much into the category of gimmicky/cheesey antics. Visually, it's the yawing where there's basically 0 bounce/differentiation between each swing (aside from these specific cases, yawing will still be completely the same).

@SeV You mentioned what ideally the attack-defense ratio should be close to 50/50 in perfect saber system. That's the main issue i have with some of your suggestions. 50/50 or even 60/40 leads to prolonged duels where defense is so strong that people just stare at each other for minutes. I am not even mention the pace of open mode suffering greatly.
I think the perfect ratio should be around 65/35, close to 70/30. Mind you, i am not the fan of brainless spam, but attack should be always prefered in perfect system (atleast for open mode).

I'm not sure on the exact numbers for ratios but IMO both offense and defense should have equal chances to win by default, with favor slightly to attacking to avoid the stonewalling and other problems that have popped up. Having tools/mechanics that are used actively by players (i.e. Mblock to stagger and get a fast counter attack, ways to manipulate swing timing such as half swings, both current and the faster version from the past) allows for the (small) gap between offense/defense to be closed with skillful usage. Also removing weird gimmicky/cheesey things (looking at you yaw hitbox abuse) without completely removing creativity/options helps steer things in the correct direction.

@Tempest You put so much effort there, hats off to you.
++ I really like the visual part. Decent animation changes.
++ I enjoy global damage increase. Fast duels, 1 - 2 mistakes determine the winner. Perfect.
+ BP cost for special moves is alright.
- Stagger on low bp is bad. Been there already, let's not repeat the mistakes of the past.
- - I am not agree with having only slow chains. I think current chain speed perfectly fits the swingblock mechanic, which we should improve especially visual feedback. So it's about once you tapped block button during attack, your next consecutive swing will be slower (just like right now with regular swings). Regular chains should have something like 15-20% speed buff.

Thanks, much appreciated! The body hit staggers relating to BP/ACM have been removed as well as the auto-disarm on 0 BP when parrying (back to just a non-visual combo break). Having the swing speed modified based on swingblocking is an interesting thought though I'm not sure how it'd play out as far as actually implementing it without a lot of issues/roadblocks.

 

[Starushka]

You know what, i think we should have 3 types of attack. Now we only have 2 - regular attack and attack-defense a.k.a swingblock.
The way i see it:
1. Powerful strike - Hold M1. Your next consecutive swing will be as speedy as in public build (1.4.4). 2x BP cost.
2. Default attack - Tap M1. Next swing in chain 10 - 20% faster than in open beta.
3. Swingblock - Tap M2. Open beta speed for next swing in chain.
Imagine all of these beatifull combinations we would have.

 

[DaloLorn]

Awww, the auto-disarm was making runners so much easier to eliminate...

 

[SeV]

This is not an RPG. The build you choose but mainly how you utilize it, your actions on battlefield determines which Form you're using. That's the beauty of mb2 - complete freedom, without artificial borders.

@SeV You mentioned what ideally the attack-defense ratio should be close to 50/50 in perfect saber system. That's the main issue i have with some of your suggestions. 50/50 or even 60/40 leads to prolonged duels where defense is so strong that people just stare at each other for minutes. I am not even mention the pace of open mode suffering greatly.
I think the perfect ratio should be around 65/35, close to 70/30. Mind you, i am not the fan of brainless spam, but attack should be always prefered in perfect system (atleast for open mode).

You misunderstand me, as tempest has already pointed out. I'm not saying dueling should take ages. I'm saying that there should be nearly equal rewards for landing a good offense as landing a good defense. In a system with high drains, a few attacks and a few ACM gained counts very much, but currently, landing a PB does not count for much. It merely prevents some damage and ACM gain, but does not confer any benefits, thus tilting the scales too much in the direction of offense. The problem isn't fast duels, that is a boon. The problem arises if there is only one way to play, and that is to outspam the opponent, pretty much ignore the PB mechanic and try to hit ACM spam, dodge, combo spam, dodge, repeat. I'm saying PB needs a place in that cycle, and in order to obtain a place in the balance of duels it needs to be on near to if not on equal ground with attacking (skillfully). I'm not at all advocating that we return to the 1.4 slow duels where you had to build up ACM even to kill a noob. I want a system where killing a noob takes seconds, but killing someone close to your level can take a long time depending on his defensive skills.. The problem with systems that are 70/30 offense is that they tend to devolve into a contest of who can spam the most and gather the most ACM, trivializing PB and defensive skills in general.

In my mind, someone who is very good at defense should be able to defend eternally against someone who isn't very good at attacking. Similarly vs someone with close to equal skill in attacking, he shouldn't be able to defend forever at all. I'm not saying buff defensive playstyles and nerf attack styles, on the contrary I am saying we need to keep the fast pace, but reward people who can hit those PBs. We're already nearing such a dynamic, but even if we have to further increase overall BP damages to implement a more rewarding PB mechanic, I would still go for it. What I want is a system where you can rek unskilled players easily and in no time at all, but also a system where two skilled players can fight each other for a long time in epic duels. I hope you are not suggesting that we should simplify the art of dueling so that ALL duels are very fast regardless of skill levels.

 

[Stassin]

Clarify what you mean by "offense" and by "defense".

 

[SeV]

Clarify what you mean by "offense" and by "defense".

Offense = Attacking. Actively seeking to deal damage.
Defense = PBing, Mblocking, Dodging. Actively avoiding damage.

 

[Stassin]

Does that mean that "swinging" is necessarily a part of offense ?

Imo "defense" and "offense" are strategical choices and should not at all be tied to "performing X or Y action".

 

[SeV]

Does that mean that "swinging" is necessarily a part of offense ?

Imo "defense" and "offense" are strategical choices and should not at all be tied to "performing X or Y action".

Ah, I get what you're saying. I forgot to include parrying. Defense and offense are certainly strategical choices, but they are also simply the basic actions of attacking and defending. If a system is skewed too much towards attacking, and largely glosses over defense, that means the most effective winning strategy will not include much defence, but will instead focus heavily on attacking in the most brutal and efficient way even at the expense of defense.

What I am saying by formulating ratios like 60/40 is essentially just that I wish defensive skills to be valued a little higher, especially in a system as volatile as this one, with its high AP modifier. This is partly due to the fact that I think someone cultivating defensive skills like PB and Mblock should be rewarded for his efforts just as someone who has great timing skills for his offense should be rewarded for his attacking skill... I'm not saying that I want a slow system, or a system where the best way to win is to adopt a passive strategy. What I am saying is that I want more modes or playstyles to be viable to encourage more interesting and changing dynamics during dueling, instead of it just boiling down to who can berserk the other guy faster.


---
EDIT:
By the way, it was the same kind of reasoning that led me to believe in Combo breaking. That was a tangible way of rewarding defense, while nudging was an advanced offensive strategy one could employ to bypass PBs. The system had its flaws of course, but it was great too precisely because you could feel the pendulum swinging from attack to defense, combo interrupt strategy to halfswing ACM strategy and back. You could see the power shifts in terms of ACM and it acted like a weight in duels. In current tempest system, the high AP is kind of like that in the sense that it is a weight pushing the pendulum. But instead of PB weighing in as much as it did in 1.4 with combo breaking, PB is largely set aside and the way to move the pendulum is to dodge and hope to outspam your opponent with timing and combos. It's got a good dynamic going for it, but I want more bang for my buck with PBs, which is why I suggested the Bp regen on PB and similar ideas like the yellow ACM drain on PB. It will forever remain my favorite perk, good thing I suggested it huh. But many ppl didn't like it cause if coupled with a system reliant on ACM to deal massive dmg, it makes turtling too strong. Aka, the ratio is shifted in favour of defense which is also no good.

 

[Stassin]

What i mean is that "playing offensively" is the strategical choice to press on your opponent so as to defeat him quickly, while "playing defensively" means drawing out the fight to survive and win in the long term. Taking 1.4.2 as reference because i'm not really up to date with the more recent systems: red had the ability to quickly drain BP with quick chains and staggers, while blue style relied on building ACM to overwhelm the opponent over time (without being able to do much damage at all with no ACM). In this example, blue did so without using PBs but still by spamming bodyhits to gain more ACM (not saying that's a good design). More generally in 1.4.2, you could use PB in order to perform a fast, powerful counter, allowing the duel to quickly shift in your favor for a potential quick win. The point being, a style could be considered "offensive" even though it completely relies on PBs to do so, for example if it had huge BP drain on PBs it'd be able to destroy an opponent quickly, the same way red could do that with swings. Of course PBing means you have to wait for the opponent to initiate, but the point is, that hypothetical style would be "offensive" in the sense that its main way of defeating opponents would be through quick bursts of BP drains that finish the opponent at the slightest mistake, yet it'd be using PBs to do so (its normal attacks would be weak, only meant to bait the opponent into attacking back so you can PB).

Not really arguing here, just trying to make it so there is a common ground for everyone rearding what the concepts of defense and offense entail.

And so i think what some people here mean with those 70/30 or 60/40 ratios are how often "offense" i.e. trying to finish fights quickly should be used versus how often "defense" i.e. prolonging the fights should be used. While others seem to rather mean it as how often "swings" should be used versus how often "PBs" should be used. Not saying both aren't tied in current systems, but they certainly aren't 100% tied.

 

[T r i s t a n]

So much for the solid state saber system for them next future builds... Gonna keep doing what they always do... Why not put this effort into making a new mode? Or polishing maps? Or both? Meh we all wanna relearn everything we learn every new build right guys? Basically every build means nothing, because in 1 - 2 months the entire system is overhauled (not entirely for the better most times) so all our learning and progress gets reset. Fun times...