1.4.5 Open Beta Dueling Feedback
- Thread starter Spaghetti
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slow blue was a mistake, should've never existed and should never come back
imo blue in the beta is perfectly fine, it's almost every other style that need a couple of good looks at
DaloLorn
Movie Battles II Team Retired
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This is probably its greatest flaw right now. Against players who are willing to invest all their BP in an assault, a well-used blue will be the undisputed victor - but any player who is careful enough to never drop below 30 BP or some such figure will be unbeatable without mblocks, a huge skill disparity allowing the blue user to spam away with impunity (for instance, the opposing duelist can barely PB, let alone mblock), or gimmicks. (He may not be able to win the battle himself, but he'll certainly survive through to the end.)
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I did actually try to do something regarding Blue getting its swing count modified based on certain conditions. However, actually being able to implement it is a much more difficult task (tl;dr part of code relating to swing counts doesn't actually have info about stuff like body hits and whatnot).
Btw, you can still be aggressive with Blue. You just can't do a ton of pressure based on swing chaining (both because nudge is gone and because the second swing is slower). It's now a lot more about quick/simple strikes to build ACM (to bolster defense) and to interrupt/parry your opponent. In essence, you make your opponent wear themself out trying to get past your defense rather than overwhelming with extremely fast + hard to block swing chains.
Also to confirm about PB (can't quote cause mobile currently):
It's less a bug in how difficult it is to PB now as it is a byproduct of how the code was designed previously. Since most of the swings are now transition animations, you're basically unable to PB them because the PB code is checking for attack animations exclusively. I modified it and just need @Viserys and @Spaghetti to update things so this gets applied. I also removed the base of 10 (so now it'll only scale based on ACM between people) from the BP staggers for body hits to see if the threshhold raising too quickly (I realized that quite often, it was ending up in the mid-20s for BP which is too much-I think this was because I hadn't actually fixed the ACM gain/drain properly yet in closed beta at the time but yeah..>_>) is the issue or if it's just flat out the staggering itself.
Btw, you can still be aggressive with Blue. You just can't do a ton of pressure based on swing chaining (both because nudge is gone and because the second swing is slower). It's now a lot more about quick/simple strikes to build ACM (to bolster defense) and to interrupt/parry your opponent. In essence, you make your opponent wear themself out trying to get past your defense rather than overwhelming with extremely fast + hard to block swing chains.
Also to confirm about PB (can't quote cause mobile currently):
It's less a bug in how difficult it is to PB now as it is a byproduct of how the code was designed previously. Since most of the swings are now transition animations, you're basically unable to PB them because the PB code is checking for attack animations exclusively. I modified it and just need @Viserys and @Spaghetti to update things so this gets applied. I also removed the base of 10 (so now it'll only scale based on ACM between people) from the BP staggers for body hits to see if the threshhold raising too quickly (I realized that quite often, it was ending up in the mid-20s for BP which is too much-I think this was because I hadn't actually fixed the ACM gain/drain properly yet in closed beta at the time but yeah..>_>) is the issue or if it's just flat out the staggering itself.
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I tried the new blue for awhile and overall I feel that it is pretty decent. I really like its concept and how it plays in general, since I am a guy that has always liked PB as a skill. Even before aimed PB, I was the guy that wanted PBs to matter and I spent time trying to find the best ways to PB. Blue playstyle requires finesse for swing timing interrupts and PBs + PB counters. You can't just take 4 hit combos and expect to survive, you have to rely on both PB and blues fast wet noodle swing interrupts for it to work. Neither can you just mindlessly retardo spam your way to victory using one or two sets of simple combos and just ignore skills like PB entirely.
In its current state, I think blue is slightly undertuned, but I like the general concept of it and its one of my favorite new styles to play due to its emphasis on PB and PB countering, and timing interrupts.
My idea for tuning it wtihin the tempest system would be to just make slight adjustments to stats.
Blue AP 4 -> 5
Blue swingcost 5 -> 4
Another option would be to leave it as is, but give it +1 ACM on PBs.
Yet another option would be to give it free mblocks like yellow, but I think just slightly tweaking the stats would do the trick since it feels decent right now. If attacks were slightly cheaper and did a bit more dmg, you would have an easier time finishing opponents off while not raping your own BP too much. The overall idea and feel of blue is to my liking, so I don't want to mess that up.
Huhuhu, Enjoy my fun little idea. Wall of text spam.
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Now I might aswell post the idea that has been rattling around inside my head for awhile regarding perks and a bit of UI revamp + some other stuff. Since this will be the last major update, I figured why not post this. Maybe it will inspire something positive. My ideas have often been adopted in the past, just not wholly or entirely. So even if the below cannot be implemented I hope you can find some inspiration there.
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For a very long time now, several years probably, I have had an idea about making buyable perks. This was partially inspired by OJPs buyable saber forms. The thing here is to give people the choice within their chosen stance, but to also limit that choice reasonably and make it balanced. The problem with this idea is that it will most likely require a UI modification, but we have talked previously of simplifying Lightsaber def and attk by making it a single column just like with weapons. So just like E-11 or Pistol, you would have Lightsaber 1,2,3 as a jedi/sith. You would then have pickable lightsaber styles on the side under the saber hilt selector. Lightsaber 1 would give you Def1+1 Style, Lightsaber 2 would give you def2 and the ability to choose two styles. Lightdsaber 3 = Def3 and 3 styles. Doing it this way simplifies the selection process, makes it clearer and cleaner on the UI too, and frees up space for my perk idea.
If we assume that the Defense column will become the Lightsaber weapon column we would free up alot of space without even modifying the UI. It is also possible to add Deflect to the Lightsaber column, but this would limit modification. Instead I propose a new column below. Space enough to add speed as a neutral force power for sith, and add a non damaging force lightning (stun) to the jedis. Like the legendary Shia dude said, JUST DO IT. Since both sides receive equally it will not skew sides in any direction. It also makes sense from a movie/canon perspective. Why can't sith move swiftly? They are supposedly trained more in the martial arts of lightsaber combat to kill jedi, so them having smth like speed makes alot of sense.
In addition to the above, I would like to bring back a better saber throw and merge it with the deflect column, renaming it to something like Expertise and sticking it under Lightsaber to indicate that it increases your expertise in handling a lightsaber. In addition, Expertise will allow you to more swiftly retrieve your saber after being disarmed. Expertise 3 wiil allow instant retrieval, also on ST but will ofc cost a bit more too since it also gives deflect 3. The main idea is for it to be something like special saber handling skills that a lightsaber focused jedi/sith would train in.
So you get smth like this.
[Force speed] or [Force Stun]
[Form choice 1]
[Form choice 2]
[Lightsaber]
[Expertise]
The perks will be renamed to forms and will differ based on what styles you choose. Saber styles will still retain some inherent perks like they have currently, but Forms will be supplements to further customize playstyle. This is obviously a large overhaul that will require some thought and testing, so what I suggest below is merely a starting point for adjustments/inspiration. I know the system is nearly complete so springing something like this on you all of a sudden is a bit ***** and it makes implementation of this rather unlikely, unfortunately.
First, before we look at what each form does, let us establish the restrictions. The styles you choose enable the choice of certain lightsaber forms. Some lightsaber forms can be used with multiple styles, while others cannot, and you are not restricted to the benefits of one form per style. For example if you choose yellow and blue along with Shii-cho and Soresu, you will be able to gain the benefits of shii-cho while using blue, along with the benefits conferred by Soresu. Depending on what lightsaber styles you select, the two Form choice fields change. In addition, the second form choice only becomes available at Lightsaber 3 along with the third style (to expand your choice of forms).
Blue: Form I, (Shii-Cho), Form III (Soresu)
Cyan: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form II (Makashi)
Yellow: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form II (Makashi), Form V (Djem-So), Form VI (Niman)
Red: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form IV (Ataru), Form V (Djem-So)
Purple: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form IV (Ataru), Form VII (Vaapad)
White: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form VI (Niman), Form III (Soresu)
Green: Form I (Shii-Cho) + Jar'kai (Inherent form)
So choosing a lightsaber style will give you access to its forms, and picking a form will confer benefits on styles beholden to said form. Shii-cho is the basic lightsaber form first taught to all younglings, and as such it is available for all styles.
Form I (Shii-Cho)
Philosophy: The basic style. It's philosophy is simply to reinforce the basics and make them stronger. Players who specialize in Shii-cho will find their fundamentals enhanced.
Mblocks cost nothing.
PB+MBlock+Counter = +2 ACM in addition to whatever else is gained from the swing.
Form II (Makashi)
Philosophy: Elegant fencing style designed for lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. Focuses on swing timing, parrying and the dance of dueling.
Reduces 33% of ACM bonus to parries from opponents
Increases 33% of the ACM bonus to parries to opponents
PB+Counter gives +2 ACM even if parried or PB'd.
Form III (Soresu)
Philosophy: Wait and see, defense over offense. Take advantage of the opponents errors and openings with PB counters.
PBs allow you to insta counter.
PB drains (9 base + 1 per 2 ACM) - Can trigger BP related staggers.
Double PB within the same combo = Short stagger.
Form IV (Ataru)
Philosophy: Aeril attacks, aggressive style. Dodging for defense rather than blocking. A quick burn, mutual destruction. Not a sustain style, more of a berserker style.
Slowly regenerates BP in the air as long as jumps aren't force jumps beyond tapping for a milisec. Like, as soon as you hear the force sound, about 5 fp.
BP regenerated in the air is drained from FP in a 1-2 ratio. 1 BP for 2 FP. Regen rate is similar to current def1 rate or slightly slower.
Aerial attacks deal increased damage. (Something like 1.2x of all current modifiers).
Ground attacks deal less damage. (Something like 0.7x of all current modifiers)
Form V (Djem-So)
Philosophy: Offense over defense. The opposite of Soresu. This style takes the initiative rather than giving it away. Aggression, burning, fighting power.
Consecutives deal +2 additional BP damage and give +2 ACM per swing in the chain after the first hit. So for red 13,15,17 instead of 13,13,13. And ACM wise +3,+2,+2 instead of +3,+1+1.
Halfswing multiplier lowered so that they deal -2 or even less BP Dmg and only give you +1 ACM.
You take an additional +1 BP dmg from fast styles, +2 from Medium styles and +3 from heavy styles. Also, 4 BP Bleeds through your PBs since your focus is on offense and not defense.
Forn VI (Niman)
Philosophy: Jack of all trades, master of none. Toolkit meister, diplomat style.
PBs drain 2 BP + 1 per 2 ACM from opponent.
2 BP bleed through enemy PBs.
Mblocks give +1 ACM and drain -1 ACM from the opponent.
PB+Counters give an additional +1 ACM even if parried of PB'd.
Consecutive swings give +1 to BP dmg, so for yellow 11,12,13,14.
halfswings after the first swing deal +1 BP dmg and keep stacking like consecutives. The two also stack together, so halfswings also buff BP dmg of next consecutive and vice versa.
Enemy attacks deal 2 BP dmg through your PBs.
Form VII (Vaapad)
Philosophy: Similar to Djem-So in that it is aggressive and wild.
Deals (6 + 1 per ACM) BP through PB - Can trigger BP related staggers
Cartwheels are free and you can regen BP during them at the cost of FP if FP is available, similar to the Ataru regen.
Cartwheel anim plays twice as fast, allowing the Vaapad user to cartwheel to the side and attack more unpredictably.
Non-force jumps boost AP to 1.1x if 1.0x is normal.
Chained vaapad halfswings give +1 BP to the next attack.
Slightly modified the styles to exclude some of the stuff gained from choosing forms. Close to remaining the same.
In its current state, I think blue is slightly undertuned, but I like the general concept of it and its one of my favorite new styles to play due to its emphasis on PB and PB countering, and timing interrupts.
My idea for tuning it wtihin the tempest system would be to just make slight adjustments to stats.
Blue AP 4 -> 5
Blue swingcost 5 -> 4
Another option would be to leave it as is, but give it +1 ACM on PBs.
Yet another option would be to give it free mblocks like yellow, but I think just slightly tweaking the stats would do the trick since it feels decent right now. If attacks were slightly cheaper and did a bit more dmg, you would have an easier time finishing opponents off while not raping your own BP too much. The overall idea and feel of blue is to my liking, so I don't want to mess that up.
Huhuhu, Enjoy my fun little idea. Wall of text spam.
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Now I might aswell post the idea that has been rattling around inside my head for awhile regarding perks and a bit of UI revamp + some other stuff. Since this will be the last major update, I figured why not post this. Maybe it will inspire something positive. My ideas have often been adopted in the past, just not wholly or entirely. So even if the below cannot be implemented I hope you can find some inspiration there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For a very long time now, several years probably, I have had an idea about making buyable perks. This was partially inspired by OJPs buyable saber forms. The thing here is to give people the choice within their chosen stance, but to also limit that choice reasonably and make it balanced. The problem with this idea is that it will most likely require a UI modification, but we have talked previously of simplifying Lightsaber def and attk by making it a single column just like with weapons. So just like E-11 or Pistol, you would have Lightsaber 1,2,3 as a jedi/sith. You would then have pickable lightsaber styles on the side under the saber hilt selector. Lightsaber 1 would give you Def1+1 Style, Lightsaber 2 would give you def2 and the ability to choose two styles. Lightdsaber 3 = Def3 and 3 styles. Doing it this way simplifies the selection process, makes it clearer and cleaner on the UI too, and frees up space for my perk idea.
If we assume that the Defense column will become the Lightsaber weapon column we would free up alot of space without even modifying the UI. It is also possible to add Deflect to the Lightsaber column, but this would limit modification. Instead I propose a new column below. Space enough to add speed as a neutral force power for sith, and add a non damaging force lightning (stun) to the jedis. Like the legendary Shia dude said, JUST DO IT. Since both sides receive equally it will not skew sides in any direction. It also makes sense from a movie/canon perspective. Why can't sith move swiftly? They are supposedly trained more in the martial arts of lightsaber combat to kill jedi, so them having smth like speed makes alot of sense.
In addition to the above, I would like to bring back a better saber throw and merge it with the deflect column, renaming it to something like Expertise and sticking it under Lightsaber to indicate that it increases your expertise in handling a lightsaber. In addition, Expertise will allow you to more swiftly retrieve your saber after being disarmed. Expertise 3 wiil allow instant retrieval, also on ST but will ofc cost a bit more too since it also gives deflect 3. The main idea is for it to be something like special saber handling skills that a lightsaber focused jedi/sith would train in.
So you get smth like this.
[Force speed] or [Force Stun]
[Form choice 1]
[Form choice 2]
[Lightsaber]
[Expertise]
The perks will be renamed to forms and will differ based on what styles you choose. Saber styles will still retain some inherent perks like they have currently, but Forms will be supplements to further customize playstyle. This is obviously a large overhaul that will require some thought and testing, so what I suggest below is merely a starting point for adjustments/inspiration. I know the system is nearly complete so springing something like this on you all of a sudden is a bit ***** and it makes implementation of this rather unlikely, unfortunately.
First, before we look at what each form does, let us establish the restrictions. The styles you choose enable the choice of certain lightsaber forms. Some lightsaber forms can be used with multiple styles, while others cannot, and you are not restricted to the benefits of one form per style. For example if you choose yellow and blue along with Shii-cho and Soresu, you will be able to gain the benefits of shii-cho while using blue, along with the benefits conferred by Soresu. Depending on what lightsaber styles you select, the two Form choice fields change. In addition, the second form choice only becomes available at Lightsaber 3 along with the third style (to expand your choice of forms).
Blue: Form I, (Shii-Cho), Form III (Soresu)
Cyan: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form II (Makashi)
Yellow: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form II (Makashi), Form V (Djem-So), Form VI (Niman)
Red: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form IV (Ataru), Form V (Djem-So)
Purple: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form IV (Ataru), Form VII (Vaapad)
White: Form I (Shii-Cho), Form VI (Niman), Form III (Soresu)
Green: Form I (Shii-Cho) + Jar'kai (Inherent form)
So choosing a lightsaber style will give you access to its forms, and picking a form will confer benefits on styles beholden to said form. Shii-cho is the basic lightsaber form first taught to all younglings, and as such it is available for all styles.
Form I (Shii-Cho)
Philosophy: The basic style. It's philosophy is simply to reinforce the basics and make them stronger. Players who specialize in Shii-cho will find their fundamentals enhanced.
Mblocks cost nothing.
PB+MBlock+Counter = +2 ACM in addition to whatever else is gained from the swing.
Form II (Makashi)
Philosophy: Elegant fencing style designed for lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. Focuses on swing timing, parrying and the dance of dueling.
Reduces 33% of ACM bonus to parries from opponents
Increases 33% of the ACM bonus to parries to opponents
PB+Counter gives +2 ACM even if parried or PB'd.
Form III (Soresu)
Philosophy: Wait and see, defense over offense. Take advantage of the opponents errors and openings with PB counters.
PBs allow you to insta counter.
PB drains (9 base + 1 per 2 ACM) - Can trigger BP related staggers.
Double PB within the same combo = Short stagger.
Form IV (Ataru)
Philosophy: Aeril attacks, aggressive style. Dodging for defense rather than blocking. A quick burn, mutual destruction. Not a sustain style, more of a berserker style.
Slowly regenerates BP in the air as long as jumps aren't force jumps beyond tapping for a milisec. Like, as soon as you hear the force sound, about 5 fp.
BP regenerated in the air is drained from FP in a 1-2 ratio. 1 BP for 2 FP. Regen rate is similar to current def1 rate or slightly slower.
Aerial attacks deal increased damage. (Something like 1.2x of all current modifiers).
Ground attacks deal less damage. (Something like 0.7x of all current modifiers)
Form V (Djem-So)
Philosophy: Offense over defense. The opposite of Soresu. This style takes the initiative rather than giving it away. Aggression, burning, fighting power.
Consecutives deal +2 additional BP damage and give +2 ACM per swing in the chain after the first hit. So for red 13,15,17 instead of 13,13,13. And ACM wise +3,+2,+2 instead of +3,+1+1.
Halfswing multiplier lowered so that they deal -2 or even less BP Dmg and only give you +1 ACM.
You take an additional +1 BP dmg from fast styles, +2 from Medium styles and +3 from heavy styles. Also, 4 BP Bleeds through your PBs since your focus is on offense and not defense.
Forn VI (Niman)
Philosophy: Jack of all trades, master of none. Toolkit meister, diplomat style.
PBs drain 2 BP + 1 per 2 ACM from opponent.
2 BP bleed through enemy PBs.
Mblocks give +1 ACM and drain -1 ACM from the opponent.
PB+Counters give an additional +1 ACM even if parried of PB'd.
Consecutive swings give +1 to BP dmg, so for yellow 11,12,13,14.
halfswings after the first swing deal +1 BP dmg and keep stacking like consecutives. The two also stack together, so halfswings also buff BP dmg of next consecutive and vice versa.
Enemy attacks deal 2 BP dmg through your PBs.
Form VII (Vaapad)
Philosophy: Similar to Djem-So in that it is aggressive and wild.
Deals (6 + 1 per ACM) BP through PB - Can trigger BP related staggers
Cartwheels are free and you can regen BP during them at the cost of FP if FP is available, similar to the Ataru regen.
Cartwheel anim plays twice as fast, allowing the Vaapad user to cartwheel to the side and attack more unpredictably.
Non-force jumps boost AP to 1.1x if 1.0x is normal.
Chained vaapad halfswings give +1 BP to the next attack.
Slightly modified the styles to exclude some of the stuff gained from choosing forms. Close to remaining the same.
- Blue
- Swing count of 2
- Offense Rating: Decreased by 50%
- Defense Rating: Increased by 5%
- 20% ACM bonus on specials
- Loses 3 ACM when body hit
- Cyan
- Swing count of 4
- Offense Rating: Decreased by 22%
- Defense Rating: Decreased by 5%
- All swings can combo break on Perfect Parry
- 75% damage on consecutive swings
- Loses 4 ACM when body hit
- Yellow
- Offense Rating: Decreased by 8%.
- Defense Rating: Unchanged
- Swing count of 4
- Drains 4 ACM on a PB counter body hit
- White
- Swing count of 4
- Offense Rating: Decreased by 18%
- Defense Rating: Decreased by 3%
- Mblock related staggers are buffed compared to other styles
- Mblock Vs Swingblock
- Gain 3 ACM
- Drain 3 ACM
- Large block radius.
- Green
- Offense Rating: Decreased by 10%
- Defense Rating: Unchanged
- Swing count of 5
- All swings 0.75x damage without ACM
- Special moves have 50% of their ACM multiplier added into their damage
- Loses 4 ACM on body hit
- Offense Rating: Decreased by 10%
- Red
- Swing count of 3
- Offense Rating: Decreased by 13%
- Defense Rating: Decreased by 2%
- Being PB counter body hit drains 2 ACM
- Doesn't lose BP when Mblocked on swingblocks
- Purple
- Swing count of 3
- Offense Rating: Decreased by 15%
- Defense Rating: Unchanged
- Being PB counter body hit drains 3 ACM
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Completely agree.
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That SeVspam sounds really fun in terms of adding a bunch of new "styles" created by combining two forms along with different possible saber styles.
I'm still so inexperienced as a saberist that my opinion is invalid, but, I like that idea. And, at the same time, I dislike it a little for the same reason I have some remaining beef with SBD/Deka/Wook, which is that it gets really hard to tell what kind of loadout an enemy has each round and you don't necessarily have time to test and figure it out, so you have to say fuck-it and just not worry about major questions like "do they have Cortosis or Mag" or "do they have shield repulse or power management."
And I think this ambiguity is also part of what leads people to treat those classes as unkillable walls, because in any given case they see the Wook/SBD/Deka as probably being optimized for the situation. For instance, it's pretty unlikely as a low-Strength Wookiee to be caught out and lightninged.
But that's not really a big deal so i mostly just like the idea.
The worst example of ambiguous-loadouts, in my opinion, was back when there were saber style anti-gun perks and it was impossible to tell what kinds of perks a saberist had against you as they ran at you. So I'm glad that's gone.
I'm still so inexperienced as a saberist that my opinion is invalid, but, I like that idea. And, at the same time, I dislike it a little for the same reason I have some remaining beef with SBD/Deka/Wook, which is that it gets really hard to tell what kind of loadout an enemy has each round and you don't necessarily have time to test and figure it out, so you have to say fuck-it and just not worry about major questions like "do they have Cortosis or Mag" or "do they have shield repulse or power management."
And I think this ambiguity is also part of what leads people to treat those classes as unkillable walls, because in any given case they see the Wook/SBD/Deka as probably being optimized for the situation. For instance, it's pretty unlikely as a low-Strength Wookiee to be caught out and lightninged.
But that's not really a big deal so i mostly just like the idea.
The worst example of ambiguous-loadouts, in my opinion, was back when there were saber style anti-gun perks and it was impossible to tell what kinds of perks a saberist had against you as they ran at you. So I'm glad that's gone.
kvinto
Internal Beta Team
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Amazing feedback man! Keep it up!
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A 1.5x BP multiplier would fix a lot of problems, as I'm sure Tempest has seen me state a lot of times. The problem regarding defense and offense is a very fine balance, you have to consider:
Swing Damage
Swing Cost
BP Regeneration
PB
Parry
ACM Contribution
At the time being, the swing damage is simply not high enough to merit the swing cost, and you'll actually kill yourself on a decent defensive player trying to kill them in the current 1.4x multiplier. At a certain point of Swing damage, their BP Regen starts to out-weigh your swing damage, and you end up killing yourself with swing cost. Combos end up being literally useless, as your entire strategy turns into having an ACM management contest with your opponent.
Now, I dislike spam as much as the next guy, but the damages aren't responsible for spam being useful or not. The problem is honestly just how swingblock works. You'll find that at high level, spam becomes more prevalent than at low level (or rather, harder to punish), that is because higher level players start to swingblock *every* swing, or know when and where to swingblock to avoid the CC from slap, or the disarm from Mblock.
There isn't really enough anti-spam, basically. Swingblock has no drawbacks except a barely prevalent damage reduction and speed reduction-(Which I'm not sure even exists in the beta). So there either needs to be another counter for point blank spam, or swingblock needs to be changed. However, it is clear that reducing the damage of the swings to try and prevent spam only serves to make people kill themselves with their own swings.
Swing Damage
Swing Cost
BP Regeneration
PB
Parry
ACM Contribution
At the time being, the swing damage is simply not high enough to merit the swing cost, and you'll actually kill yourself on a decent defensive player trying to kill them in the current 1.4x multiplier. At a certain point of Swing damage, their BP Regen starts to out-weigh your swing damage, and you end up killing yourself with swing cost. Combos end up being literally useless, as your entire strategy turns into having an ACM management contest with your opponent.
Now, I dislike spam as much as the next guy, but the damages aren't responsible for spam being useful or not. The problem is honestly just how swingblock works. You'll find that at high level, spam becomes more prevalent than at low level (or rather, harder to punish), that is because higher level players start to swingblock *every* swing, or know when and where to swingblock to avoid the CC from slap, or the disarm from Mblock.
There isn't really enough anti-spam, basically. Swingblock has no drawbacks except a barely prevalent damage reduction and speed reduction-(Which I'm not sure even exists in the beta). So there either needs to be another counter for point blank spam, or swingblock needs to be changed. However, it is clear that reducing the damage of the swings to try and prevent spam only serves to make people kill themselves with their own swings.
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coming off just having some good games of dancing around swings as a gunner, completely unrelated to this topic, here's a small theoretical observation: The swingblock speed reduction lets the target move completely out of range before the hit lands, rather than worrying about blocking. And because every single swing now has a guaranteed cost, this gives the target a slight BP advantage over the attacker.
or, more briefly: what if the counterplay to swingblocking is (or should be) evasion-rather-than-blocking.
Also, it's a bit weird that "swingblocking" is a state that you can switch in and out of instantaneously mid-swing.
What if, when you right click during a swing, the entire rest of the swing becomes a swingblock, so you're committed to your slow movement.
This reduces the skill potential a little bit but it only removes options that I think are silly anyway. And more importantly it puts more emphasis on dodging as swingblock counterplay.
but i remain a saber theorist and a super shitty saber practitioner
or, more briefly: what if the counterplay to swingblocking is (or should be) evasion-rather-than-blocking.
Also, it's a bit weird that "swingblocking" is a state that you can switch in and out of instantaneously mid-swing.
What if, when you right click during a swing, the entire rest of the swing becomes a swingblock, so you're committed to your slow movement.
This reduces the skill potential a little bit but it only removes options that I think are silly anyway. And more importantly it puts more emphasis on dodging as swingblock counterplay.
but i remain a saber theorist and a super shitty saber practitioner
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That is called Shadow-Swinging, and it isn't as big of a counter-play as you think. Also some EU players whine about it. Shadow Swinging should honestly be nerfed in a fashion, it was popular in 1.3 because it was the *only* way you were going to kill a really good Red/Purple user with cyan/yellow. The problem is, with no over-time chase mechanic, there is a fine line between evading an opponent's swing, and running away for 10 minutes while parrying.
Yes, it is weird.
I had a similar suggestion along the lines of "If you swingblock, you cannot continue a combo string", which would make swingblock more of a tool, than a simulated skill-floor for high level.
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Note my edit. (flashback to our last conversation and the whole secondary conversation we had via constant edits.) edit: now I see that you noted my edit. Har. Good.
Also, I thought shadow swinging was the Sasaki Kojiro "swallow cut" thing you can do where you purposefully barely whiff your first swing so you can do a very quick swing in the opposite direction and throw off their PB. If that's not shadow swinging, then what's THAT called? Can it be called Swallow Cut? It's totally a Swallow Cut
Also, I thought shadow swinging was the Sasaki Kojiro "swallow cut" thing you can do where you purposefully barely whiff your first swing so you can do a very quick swing in the opposite direction and throw off their PB. If that's not shadow swinging, then what's THAT called? Can it be called Swallow Cut? It's totally a Swallow Cut
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I noted your edit, you should probably stop editing so much.
And I just call that 'Missing on purpose', I'm not sure if it has a name in MB2, but in Chivalry DW it was called 'False Swing'
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edit: actually, no i'll make this a separate post, to kick my editing addicition.
small note: the elsewhere-proposed nerfs to strafing speeds would probably significantly weaken the "running away for 10 minutes while parrying" strategy, although the "disarmed while parrying at low BP" thing already does that too. And neither of those changes solves the problem of simply running away forever, which IS sort of a problem on certain maps, arguably. An answer to that being, of course, Chivalry's chase mechanic.
small note: the elsewhere-proposed nerfs to strafing speeds would probably significantly weaken the "running away for 10 minutes while parrying" strategy, although the "disarmed while parrying at low BP" thing already does that too. And neither of those changes solves the problem of simply running away forever, which IS sort of a problem on certain maps, arguably. An answer to that being, of course, Chivalry's chase mechanic.
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