Gameplay Direction Post 1.4.4 [Sabering]

Thanks for your patience everyone. I know most have been/are eager to see where Saber vs Saber is heading in the future of MB2. I also know that not everyone has agreed nor will agree with all of the changes but consideration for all perspectives, opinions, and aspects of gameplay has been taken, I assure you. This thread isn't going to concern/go into plans for changes to Force powers. After the polished saber changes are released, that's when all of that stuff is going to start getting worked on/tuned up (and I'm very much looking forward to it).

Starting out, I'd like to convey my personal thought process behind changing mechanics/features of the saber system. When I think back through the various systems I've played through, the one I enjoyed the most is probably v0. Aside from perfect blocking being mostly based on the orientation of both player's cameras (which did have its merits), that has felt like the most fluid/least clunky of what I can remember. However, I've also looked at the pros/cons of pretty much every build from the eyes of many players and have been trying to incorporate the best parts of each while addressing the main flaws as well. My goal in the long-term for sabering is to make attacking and defending be on even ground as far as incentive, effectiveness, and versatility in the options that are available, as well as having depth without being too complicated. Also having gameplay be tactical and enjoyable for all parties involved, of course.

Current state of plans/changes
1) Perks/Style flavor - I'm personally trying to move away from the mindset that all styles should have some innate perk by default (this doesn't mean completely removing them from all styles however). I want the stances to play according to their fundamental designs/baseline playstyles. I also want to keep what everyone has enjoyed about using them without making them unenjoyable to play against (i.e. Blue with Nudge is something most will agree is not fun to play against). That said, some styles may look like they've gotten more attention/care than others based on bullet points in changelogs. I'll say again that I've spent lots of time considering almost every angle in regards to possible adjustments to them and am confident they'll end up as intended.

2) Nudge - I know this has been a controversial mechanic for as long as it has existed. I understand why people hate it. I understand why people want it. After experimenting and discussions, it's been decided to leave it off and see how the community feels during tests (will have it turned on or off for different playing sessions). Feedback from everyone will be important on this!

3) Perfect Block, Semi-PB, and PB counter - Semi-PB and PB counter along with the currently removed PB combo break have been nearly as controversial as Nudge. I (and quite a few others) think that they do more detracting from dueling than adding skill (not saying there's no skill in PB countering but that's not the truly skillful part of the defensive mechanic it coincides with). I'm planning to completely remove Semi-PB as well as experiment with either trading PB counter for a modified PB combo break (range-based to reduce randomness/unintentional combo breaking) or just removing it and seeing what kind of feedback that gets.

4) Adjustment to BP drains/regen - Alongside the drains in 1.4.4, I'm working on adjusting the rate of BP upkeep so that mindless swinging as well as things such as very specific timing windows relating to buggy hitboxes (getting full damage without going through actual animations is already annoying but I didn't want to completely destroy those who enjoy incorporating yawing into their play). Essentially, BP regen will kick in a frame or two later if you are not at least going through the very early stages of the swing animations (there's still some slight tweaking to do per style but it will basically go unnoticed by those who don't abuse/run into this specific aspect of sabering consistently). Also going to be trying out higher global BP damage multipliers to see how they pan out. BP regen will also be slightly increased so the higher damages with the recent drains on swings aren't completely overbearing.

5) Combo Breaking - This has been an interesting mechanic that was introduced fairly recently (in the grand scheme of things). I think that having it incorporated into the first perfect block done would be fine if/when the PB zones get adjusted to not overlap and adjusted so that it's not triggered by accident on a regular basis. That said, all combo breaks will now be visually indicated by some form of flinch/stagger so that there's no guesswork on either end when someone can't swing anymore. A full list of what triggers these along with the length/duration of the stagger and whether you can block or not during them will be included/updated as we figure the numbers out.
*I do plan to let people try out a range-based (to avoid the randomness factor as mentioned) PB combo break in open betas.

6) Indicators - New indicators are going to be implemented that make it very clear how much damage you're dealing/negating.
When attacking, you'll have the following:
  • Red (Max Damage) - This is the maximum amount of damage you dealt (enemy was running, you countered off a Pblock, was swingblocking and scored a body hit).
  • Orange (Half Damage) - You dealt around 50% your maximum possible damage on this swing.
  • Yellow (Zero Damage) - The enemy completely blocked your attack (Pblock).
When defending, you'll have the following:
  • Bright Green (Prevented All) - You successfully prevent all of the enemies incoming damage (Pblock).
  • Dull Green (Prevented Half) - Non-PB, non-body hit contact (no more semi-PB stuff)
  • Aqua (Prevented None) - You took maximum damage from the enemy (Body hit).
7) Adjustments to Defense/Attacking - As you may have noticed with the different indicators, there's going to be differences in how much damage you actually deal/take compared to the current state which is either you PB'd (0 damage), got backwacked (dead), or "body" hit (X damage depending on style, ACM, etc). More details on this once they're ironed out/polished.

8) Animation/comboing adjustments - Addressing instant swinging was one of my original goals for changes to sabering. This has almost been finalized. Combo chaining will also be slower across the board (which is part of why the damage has been increased globally). Still have some tweaking to do for Staff on that though.

9) Mblock adjustments -
  • Mblock vs Swingblocks
    • Dull Green:
      • Short stagger (can still block blasters during this flinch, which will reset it (just like normal flinch)).
      • Attacker takes normal BP damage during the flinch animation.
    • Bright Green:
      • Short stagger (can still block blasters during this flinch, which will reset it (just like normal flinch)).
      • Combo breaks attacker
      • Drains BP from attacker
  • Mblock vs Non-Swingblocks
    • Dull Green:
      • Full stagger (cannot block blasters)
      • Attacker takes increased BP damage during the stagger animation.
      • Does not disarm the attacker.
    • Bright Green:
      • Full stagger (cannot block blasters)
      • Attacker takes increased BP damage during the stagger animation.
      • Disarms the attacker
    *Stagger times for these are still being finalized (so close though!). The feel as far as how long you are prevented from starting a new swing should be very similar to how to it is currently once it's done.
10) ACM adjustments - Given the higher damage, slowing the speed of ACM gain has been a fitting change. The total amount of ACM for styles has been doubled. This does not mean you will be able to get up to 4x damage, though.
  • Non-halfswings give +2 ACM (equivalent of +1 in current builds)
  • Half-swings give +1 ACM
11) Style Changes - Note that these will likely be further detailed/clarified once the rest of the defense/body hit logic adjustments have been made.
  • Blue
    • Swing count of 2
    • AP: 7->5
    • BP: 60->62
    • Drains (9 base + 1 per ACM) BP on PB
    • 20% ACM bonus damage scaling on specials
    • Loses 2 ACM on body hit
  • Cyan
    • Swing count of 4
    • BP: 55->52
    • AP: 9
    • All swings can combo break on Perfect Parry
    • Reduces 33% of ACM bonus to parries from opponents
    • Deals 75% damage on consecutive swings (cause fast)
    • Loses 2 ACM on body hit
  • Yellow
    • AP: 12->11.
    • BP: 56
    • Swing count of 4
    • No BP drain for failing Mblock
    • Drains 2 ACM on a PB counter body hit
  • White
    • Swing count of 4
    • AP: 11
    • BP: 59
    • Successful Mblock no longer automatically counts as a PB by default
    • Mblock related staggers are buffed compared to other styles
    • Mblock Vs Swingblock
      • Dull green: -2 ACC for attacker
      • Bright green: -2 ACC for attacker, +1 ACC for defender
    • Mblock Vs Non-Swingblock
      • Dull green: Half ACC loss for attacker, +2 ACC gain for defender, disarms attacker
      • Bright green: All ACM lost for attacker, +2 ACC gain for defender
    • Large block radius.
  • Green
    • AP: 10->9
    • BP: 55
    • Swing count of 5
    • All swings 0.75x damage without ACM
    • Special moves have 50% of their ACM multiplier added into their damage
    • Lose 5 BP on Perfect Parry
    • Loses 2 ACM on body hit
  • Red
    • Swing count of 3
    • AP: 15->14
    • BP: 50
    • All non-halfswings cause a stagger on body hit
    • Being PB counter body hit is -1 ACM
    • Doesn't lose BP when Mblocked on swingblocks
  • Purple
    • Swing count of 3
    • AP: 13->11
    • BP: 52
    • Deals (6 + 1 per ACM) BP through PB
    • Being PB counter body hit is -2 ACM
To avoid messing with the bullet points (post formatting is a huge pain -_-), I'll list the reasoning behind the adjustments to each style here:
1) Blue - Most that have commented on possible changes to it have wanted it to be reverted to 1.3. Given I used to main Blue and enjoyed being able to beat people down with the 8 swing limit, I also wanted to make Blue actually have a defined baseline. Blue is supposed to be a defensive style that can also wear down the opponent with quick/precise strikes. Trying out a scaling BP drain on PB is the first option I wanted to try out. Having it gain short bursts of extra BP regen (this would require some re-tuning of the AP/BP values of course) is the other I had in mind since having a way to do damage without actually attacking is almost counterintuitive by nature.
2) Cyan - Cyan has been a roller coaster of emotions for most since it got introduced into Open. Most who want something done about it either want it deleted or changed to be more parrying-oriented. I'm more inclined to go with the latter. With that, I've moved it more toward needing precision and control to get the most of the style.
3) Yellow - As I mentioned already, Yellow is a bit difficult to balance. Giving it both offensive and defensive aspects while tuning down its numbers keeps it as the "all-rounder" style without making it too good at offense or defense.
4) Staff - Given the changes to Mblock, it was difficult to figure out how to keep Staff as the Medium styles' defensive specialist. So instead of having all these extra things added alongside the potential to stagger/flinch on Mblock, I let it keep the ACC/ACM related things, have improved stagger durations with Mblock combo breaking, as well as kepping the ability to disarm on a less precise Mblock for itself. These are currently placeholder until something more fitting comes up (if something more fitting comes up..).
5) Duals - Ah, Duals. The style that pretty much nobody likes/understands how to fight while looking pretty much terrible when involved in saber vs saber combat. The goal for Duals was to make it less effective with flailing and give more focus on its utility. The adjustments listed alongside the tweaks to animations will make fighting Duals a much less annoying experience.
6) Red - So Red has been an interesting thing to experiment with. There's two different forms of stagger I'd like for people to try out. One is the non-halfswing stagger on body hits (more raw aggression but more prone to being interrupted since there's no Nudge and can't facehug with instant chained swings) and the other is a slightly expanded version of the current one (allowing feinted swings to stagger as well). I'm curious to see the reactions on this (it's not as OP as it sounds by default because of animation adjustments).
7) Purple - I thought a lot about Purple. Probably more than any other style (well maybe just behind Staff) and there's not a lot of room for things to be changed (or really that could be changed without completely breaking it in some form or another). It's a heavy style that's a bit more suited for non-purely aggressive fighters. I personally think that its theme fits more to wearing an opponent down with tactical hits rather than raw aggression (that's Red's thing) so having it able to do some small damage through PB is a start.

So much stuff, whew. None of this is finalized so don't freak out if you see anything you don't like.
 
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Tempest

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I couldn't imagine how much time and effort you put in all this stuff, I think i'm speaking for everyone when i give you a BIG HUGE THANKS for what you are doing to make sure the game is fun for us.
This means the world to me. I don't want to see more people leaving because they find the game to be getting less fun and am doing my best to ensure that will be the case moving forward.
Looks pretty cool, I think the indicators might get a bit annoying but it depends on how they are done really.
I didn't copypaste the part about modifying the indicators from the dev thread with all this stuff but there will be an option to disable the extra indicators (3 options: Off, Normal (current indicators with just body hits, perfect block, and perfect parry), and Extended (current indicators along with the ones mentioned above).
I would also say to make dfas and katas cost bp as there are some people who will spam them without any downside like the staff which makes them invunerable while jumping around everywhere, and duals kata that just eats bp bars in 2 seconds.
(unless I missed reading about it up there)
This is something I can start working on. I also plan to remove complete invulnerability from katas/dfas in some form but it's a bit low on the to-do list so I haven't gotten to messing with that yet.

Bit of an update:
Almost have Open Beta stuff ready (been doing tests to see if we could set it up without having to have new files downloaded and I came so close to having it work). Just need to do a few more experiments with that and finish setting up the last remaining (possible) features/mechanics (half and half as far as them needing number tweaks or to actually start functioning properly ._.) before I'm content with the state of things.
 

Lessen

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First off, this looks really cool, and I'm really glad there's going to be indicators about how you GOT hit, and the other indicators. Will make it much easier to learn saber, even if the system itself gets more complicated. I'm glad someone cares this much about improving the saber system.

But also: My god, have styles always had different AP and BP values? I always knew Blue had a "strong defense" but I didn't know what it meant. If that's the case, why doesn't the BP bar display the number?

And actually, wait, is AP another word for ACM/ACC? Or is it something else?

Those are sincere questions but I'm mostly just begging for some complete documentation to come with the next saber overhaul. And I mean documentation of every aspect from the ground up, not just a changelog. Heck, if you gave me the facts and figures I'm willing to take a shot at writing/formatting the documentation myself (onto the Wiki). I don't have anything better to do this month.
 

Tempest

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AP (attacking potential) and BP (blocking potential) relate to offensive and defensive values. They're basically the very first value that comes into play when you get into the damage formulas. I can include the math for that a bit down the road once everything is actually ready to be documented.
 

Tempest

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Mblock fixed but @Viserys and @Hexodious don't want to start the Open Beta stuff until indicators are working. The code for them is working but there's weird technical issues that cause bugs when the events related to them are in (even without the actual code to make the indicators show up being in). Gameplay is all fully functioning though so I'm wanting to get it rolling, please halp.
 

Fang

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thank god, no more dueling updates for a few milleniums until someone cries the next day anyway.

CANNOT WAIT
for some sick gunner changes and additions
 

Tempest

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Going to be setting up some sessions for playing with what's currently done. Messages will be on the MB2 Discord regarding when/how to get in on the action.
 
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Just wanted to say to keep up the good work, really glad you decided against nudge in the open beta & i'm really liking the changes so far! This really motivates me to start dueling again, can't wait!
 

Antraxo

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I better wait with my "Art of Duelling" videos then :)
Gonna teach all them younglings how it works :p
Can't wait !
star-wars-animated-gif-10.gif
 

{Δ} Achilles

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*Fires blob at Achilles*

gg. Now to slack to write fourty pages of why clones need to be reworked, and why cyan needs to be buffed!
Oh and nerf yellow.

*Wink wink*

But... yellow is underpowered...

Also, I just pushed your blob on reaction, whilst jumping backwards, whilst saber fighting Sekundus, whilst singing 'Old Man River'. Tempest taught me that.
 

GoodOl'Ben

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I like the fact that you're bringing in visible cues such as staggers. I find that the more the dueling system relies on character animations to explain the effects of your actions, the better it will be.

I am personally not a big fan of having so many different kinds of indicators in your crosshair at all times, but I do understand their necessity when there are no other more clear-cut ways of explaining the situation present.

Here's a prototype of something we had in betatesting a long time ago.

Basically the idea was for every bodyhit to trigger a stagger. It made the duel a lot easier to read without the need for crosshair indicators. The great part was that the fights became simple to follow. If someone was doing poorly on defense, they would be seen staggering a lot. A good counter-attack that lands before the enemy's hit lands would also trigger a stagger allowing the defender to take on the offensive role.

When the player can visibly understand their situation without having to consult too many any UI elements and their variations, the system is in an ideal place.

This is what I find to be lacking the most in the saber system today. I would love for the system to be in a place where a masterful player can kill the novice in 2-3 slashes and win fights against multiple enemies alone. That's what drew me to sabering back when I started playing. Watching some of the old pros take out 5 players alone. That was the beauty of the class. This was largely killed post-B17 though and even in B17 the fights lasted ages despite the skill gap between players being massive.

Increasing BP damage across the board while increasing BP regen across the board could be an interesting avenue to look into. This would make fights less of a slow burn even when your opponent is incapable of standing up for themselves.

Essentially this is what I would love to see happen when some scrubs attempt to gank a pro.

Just a few wild thoughts and I hope you find some ideas from my ramblings :D
 
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I can only agree with you Old Ben, a pro being able to win a 2v1 or even a 3v1 should be possible with a rework. And even more if he uses staff for instance.

It make me think of Mount and blade : warband, where a pro can easily beat a group of player if he moves correctly and make them either hit each other or bodyblock each other...

Please bring balance to the force !
 
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