v1.5 increased projectile speeds: discussion

[Stassin]

Alright folks this is a pretty crucial subject for the mod's gameplay, and even though it seemed to receive mostly positive feedback during the previous open betas, hence its addition in v1.5, now the feedback appears to be quite divided on the subject with both very positive and very negative stances.

To reiterate, the projectile speeds have been increased by 15% across the board in the v1.5 release, with the exception of projectile rifle shots and clone blobs (and SBD blobs in FA).

 

[SeV]

I'm obviously in support of keeping the projectile speeds and I'll be sad if it's reverted. Probably wont play much open mode if projectile speeds decrease since it's part of why it makes it so much more fun for me in 1.5 than in 1.4.9 to play open. I can really feel my aim + prediction makes a difference, and 15% isn't big enough that it ruins MBII's unique prediction mechanics and feel. I would say it enhances them due to allowing for more ranged shots to be less random.

If they are discarded, jedi/sith FP drains will have to be tweaked, especially running drains. Right now from my experience playing both jedi/sith and gunner, it works really well and as a gunner I'm able to aim down jedi/sith and drain their FP well and if they get close flinch is there. It feels like a much more even contest that requires skill on both sides, not randomness from the gunners and timelimit for the jedi/sith (due to slow regen and fp debuff).

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

I'm personally on the fence.

The match-ups that seem to benefit from this:

• Sniper vs Gun
  • Easier to fight vs snipers
• Saber vs Gun
  • More reliable to hit strafing saberists

The match-up that seems to somewhat suffer:

• Gun vs Gun
  • A lot of the old unique feel has disappeared and the time-to-kill seems far quicker
  • Potentially per-gun velocity changes could improve this

MB2 feels like a "normal" game now, for better or worse.

 

[Manyo]

Since i often read that people don't understand why increasing bullet speeds isn't purely seen as a positive i want to list how it effects MB2's gameplay:

• Some open mode mechanics depend on gunners not beeing able to easily hit every shot (saberists in team fights, rolling deka, ARC movements, lower hp gunners vs higher hp gunners, different running speeds...). Increased speeds indirectly change a good chunk of MB2's established game balance.

• Prediction skills become less important - the game plays much more like any other shooter and loses some of it's identity. (It's both predicting where your shots will hit and predicting where the enemy moves. You can call the latter luck but i believe you can slightly increase your luck by trying to read patterns)

• Gunfights are shorter overall. (Can be fixed by higher HP pools but then you get the "i shot him 100 times why isn't he dead" problem much more often)

• Gunners don't have to be as careful in team fights as before - this removes tension from team fights.

• Weapons are less unique if they all hit almost instantly on short-mid range distances - Pistol 3, Bowcaster, T-21 primary become less challenging to use.

Now if you don't want to argue that MB2 should have hitscan weapons exculsively, faster speeds equal better gameplay only to a certain degree. So the question is where the "perfect" values for bullet speeds are.

Currently i prefer the old speeds over the new ones because a lot of the above seems to be a problem already, but i haven't played enough to say that i'll stick with that opinion.

 

[Lessen]

@Manyo

Counterpoint: Lower shot speeds overly favor just wiggle-dancing while spraying literal random fire (E-11 secondary, CR, T-21 secondary, etc). Higher shot speeds favor opting to slow down so you can deliberately aim. It also makes pistols more useful, even P1.

 

[Manyo]

@Manyo

Counterpoint: Lower shot speeds overly favor just wiggle-dancing while spraying literal random fire (E-11 secondary, CR, T-21 secondary, etc). Higher shot speeds favor opting to slow down so you can deliberately aim. It also makes pistols more useful, even P1.

But you will still play vs wiggle-dancing from classes/weapons with perfect accuracy while moving. And with other weapons slowing down to shoot with full accuracy is crucial except for super short distances where the random bullets actually have a chance of hitting. And there i don't think the speed increase will matter that much.

Pistol 3 was pretty powerful already, and Pistol 1 was more than decent considering it is just a backup weapon for all classes.

 

[Gargos]

When the projectile speeds were buffed first time, I liked it. It felt like this is very optimal for this game. This time it feels like it is too much. I just do not see the need for buffing the projectile speeds. Keep mb2 the game that it is: not a hitscan game.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

For those who prefer old speeds over new: Would you be interested in trying say a 5% increase instead of a 15% increase? I personally thought the old speeds were too slow but can see people thinking these might be too fast. Maybe something inbetween would be better.

 

[k4far]

I think I benefit the most among the Jedi. I am never standing in one spot so this change had very little impact on me, my playstyle.
Pistols are extremely powerful with this change. Stupid EE-3 should have sniper mode removed first before we continue discussion on projectile speeds Nex is just abusing quick scope on EE-3 and it's just harder for him anyone can counter him I think that' good.

 

[Nex]

This should not be open to debate and more importantly, shouldn't be implemented on the first place. Even though bowcaster wasn't changed, that buff alone made it ridiculously op'd already. That was the first thing I complained about in 1.5 release thread. Bowcaster 3 is totally broken at the moment, just like many other weapons, not to mention that this buff doesn't apply to all of them (SBD firearm still has old velocity speed for some reason). It's all messed up. It removed skill factor completely from this game. You can't dodge incoming blasts manually anymore because by the time you see them it already lands on your face. Also having that projectile velocity speed increased you don't have to predict movement of your opponent and calculate your aim accordingly. It's just spray and pray at this point. The core mechanic that made the gameplay enjoyable is gone. I loved the part that required from players to learn and invest some time to get desired results. You devs made the mod anti-skill and noob friendly experience now with this change. I didn't sign for this. Making such decision was one thing, but approving it raises some serious questions. Think about it, think about it thoroughly.
I really respect SeV as a good saberists but in regards of open combat he is totally mistaken here. I play mostly open for around 14 years, so I think I know how MBII open gameplay felt through that period and what is it about. And it definitely wasn't about picking one particular weapon and 2 shot hitscan everything on your way with no effort.

EDIT:

For those who prefer old speeds over new: Would you be interested in trying say a 5% increase instead of a 15% increase? I personally thought the old speeds were too slow but can see people thinking these might be too fast. Maybe something inbetween would be better.

Admit you guys did mistake for once and stop making silly "inbetween" compromises. Revert it back to what it was. I know many noobs like the change because it doesn't force them to learn basic movement and prediction mechanics. They would rather just jump in and get hitscan frags with bw3. I personally think MBII is about something more than that. There was no issue with projectile speed until recent update.

 

[k4far]

I really respect SeV as a good saberists but in regards of open combat he is totally mistaken here. I play mostly open for around 14 years, so I think I know how MBII open gameplay felt through that period and what is it about. And it definitely wasn't about picking one particular weapon and 2 shot hitscan everything on your way with no effort.

But Nex you main EE-3 and all you do is quick scope 1 hit from a safe space. It's just harder for you now lol. It's still viable until they remove sniper mode out of EE-3 then nerf all sniper rifles to actually do not forgive if you miss countless times then it will be truly a place for a good player such as yourself -)

 

[Nex]

But Nex you main EE-3 and all you do is quick scope 1 hit from a safe space. It's just harder for you now lol

Erm no.. it's easier. lol. Plus once you get used to other weapons like e11 you realize you don't even have to aim. Just put crosshair more or less where opponent stands and that's it.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Admit you guys did mistake for once and stop making silly "inbetween" compromises. Revert it back to what it was. I know many noobs like the change because it doesn't force them to learn basic movement and predictions mechanics. They would rather just jump in and get hitscan frags with bw3. I personally think MBII is about something more than that. There was no issue with projectile speed until recent update.

Forum poll was about half and half "stay current" vs "faster speeds" and then we tried open beta with faster speeds for a month and a half and nearly everyone that tried it responded positively. Only people you have to blame is yourself for not trying beta and giving feedback especially when it required no clientside downloads. The mistake isn't ours. We went based off of feedback and that feedback told us to increase it. That is the only reason it happened.

I personally thought it was too slow but I wasn't going to force my opinion on everyone else and I am not the one that implemented the change either.

 

[Nex]

Forum poll was about half and half "stay current" vs "faster speeds" and then we tried open beta with faster speeds and nearly everyone that tried it responded positively. Only people you have to blame is yourself for not trying beta and giving feedback especially when it required no clientside downloads. The mistake isn't ours. We went based off of feedback and that feedback told us to increase it. That is the only reason it happened.

How can you say I didn't try Beta if you don't even know it? And how can I blame myself for a change I did not make? Please dude, what do you take. Of course I tried beta, didn't like it back then and I don't like it now. But ugh well, I forgot, you're always right on these forums and discord, that's why you banned gargos when he pointed out fps issues on your new maps.
All you do is shifting blame on others and attacking them instead facing constructive criticism.

 

[k4far]

Wow, Nex you hardly participated in the Beta I was in all of the 1/2/3/4 Drops. Show more interest next time.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Nex, I just scanned the entirety of open beta feedback. You didn't reply once. How are we supposed to hear your opinion if you don't say anything then bitch at us for releasing something you consider to be a mistake? Jesus get off your horse. It doesn't matter if you tried it if you gave no feedback for us to listen to. It is hilarious you want the devs to own the mistake on this when all we did was listen to community here.

Plus I literally just asked if people wanted to try 5% instead of 15%. Since some people want more maybe we can compromise. IDK how that isnt listening to criticism.

And for the record once again. The FPS problem isn't a map problem. I am well within spec on my maps. Other things aren't within spec and need to be fixed. You going to blame recent saber clash lag on maps now too?

 

[Sir Crusher]

I haven't played open beta, but I've played as a Gunner in 1.5, and I like the faster projectile speeds.
The gameplay wasn't based on prediction in 1.4.9 as some say, because the movement model cripples pattern reading. Instead, gunfights were bizarre run n' spray matches.

i.e.: a player can switch from running toward the left to running toward the right in a split second, because there's virtually no acceleration to invert the speed.

Faster projectile speeds alleviate the issue, but they are insufficient to produce a combat system in which both aim and prediction are rewarded.


P.S.: I'll produce a video proposing some changes to the movement model later.

 

[Lessen]

@Nex Let's nerf Bowcaster then, that seems like your real complaint. Its shotspeeds are ridiculous. GoodOl'Ben recently said something along the lines of planning to change it to be more of a "TFA-style fantasy", by which I vaguely imagine he means... shots so powerful that they cause explosions, except when shot at Kylo Ren.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

The community is always going to be heavily divided when you make a poll such as this. The simple truth of the matter is you must explain what the purpose of the increased projectile speeds are, and then determine if that is what people want.

The faster projectile speeds (15%, which I highly recommend 30% maximum as that is what I tested and found to be the best number) are simply to allow gunner's aim to matter slightly more, and make fighting in close quarters easier due to not having to lead shots as much. Prior to this projectile speed increase, it was much harder to lead a target even at point blank as a gunner. Projectile speeds will not solve the lack of mechanical aiming being a huge factor in the prediction/strafing dominated MB2, but it will alleviate some of the symptoms. There is no major downside to these projectile speed increases that I can see. However if you exceed 35% speed increase, you actually can bug through reflective materials like glass with shots. Which is why I recommend 30% maximum.

It is closer to movie blaster speeds, and it helps improve MB2 accuracy. I see nothing wrong with them.

 

[Lessen]

This should not be open to debate and more importantly, shouldn't be implemented on the first place. Even though bowcaster wasn't changed, that buff alone made it ridiculously op'd already. That was the first thing I complained about in 1.5 release thread. Bowcaster 3 is totally broken at the moment, just like many other weapons, not to mention that this buff doesn't apply to all of them (SBD firearm still has old velocity speed for some reason). It's all messed up. It removed skill factor completely from this game.

this is some of the most laughably hyperbolic stuff I've ever read

"It removed skill factor completely from this game."
"This should not be open to debate."
Gee, Nex.

But yeah once again, I agree Bowcaster needs adjustment.