Two tweaks to movement. (Pretty please.)

[Lessen]

Tweak #1: "The Obvious Fix."

Crouchwalk speed is currently substantially faster than walk speed. This is silly. Pls fix. Buff walkspeed or nerf crouchwalkspeed but don't leave this counter-intuitive silliness in.



Tweak #2: "Viva la Revolución!"

What if...

What if whenever any gunner class fired a blaster, their runspeed would be reduced to Soldier runspeed for one second (maybe more, maybe less).

I like this idea because while I really like MB2's classic element of dodging shots and trying to lead the erratically-moving opponent, some classes (Hero/BH, and also stamina 2+ gloan/arc) are so fast that hitting them really does feel like 90% guess-and-prayer. With a runspeed debuff while firing, those classes would retain evasiveness and long-distance running capabilities if they don't fire, but if they DO engage in a gunfight then they'd move slow enough that they could be plausibly hit, while still having a plausible chance at dodging. It would encourage moving from cover to cover and not just skittering around in the open, and it would make head-to-head gun strafe wars a lot "cleaner," BUT it would not remove evasion from the game the way that Achilles's "tactical shooter" changes would.

I'm super intrigued by this idea. The essence of it is that it "reduces" but does not "remove" defensive options for gunners in gunfights, the same way that swing restrictions reduce but do not remove options from saber chains. It's also analogous to the way that swinging your saber (with most styles) slows you down a bit.

Admittedly it would slightly weaken gunners in the gun v saber matchup, probably requiring some compensation in firepower to balance it back out.

It would also indirectly "buff" Soldier, in a way, which would be nice since Soldier's kinda weak r/n.

edit: Another element I'd maybe add to this tweak would be to have P1, P2, and P3-alt-mode-primary-fire all be able to fire without incurring slowdown. It lets people fire while "sprinting", so they can still suppress, but it sharply reduces the amount of firepower available to fullspeed people. Although even a P2 (especially a clone P2) in the right hands can be really dangerous.

I really hope the devs test it in the closed beta at least.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

I find tweak #2 bad for 2 reasons:

#1 - It would ruin clone and arc (stamina ability) since they are based around shooting on the move

#2 - It would make attacking fortified positions MUCH harder for gunners. Do we really want to buff the defending teams? That's not even mentioning the fact that the overall gameplay will slow down dramatically.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I have tried a few games with similar mechanics to #2. It works fine for weapons with spin up or some heavy weapons. But in general I find it really aggravating on normal weapons. I do not want to see that at all and would probably never play/develop again if that was implemented. Yes that is how much I hate mechanics like that.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

#1 is something we should look into. I just tried if I can move faster while crouching than walking IRL - I couldn't. The question I guess is which one is the better speed?

I'd lean towards matching walk speed with crouch speed since that has the least impact on high levels play as pros will naturally gravitate towards crouching as opposed to walking.

 

[SeV]

I agree with #1, crouch movement shouldn't be faster than walking. Equal to it or slower. I hate it both in sabering and gunning but mostly in sabering. Another reason why I'd like to see a buff to the dmg reduction and dmg increase taken while crouching, up from 50% to atleast 75%.

#2 is probably a bit of a dubious change. Gotta be careful with speeds in general, we don't want Jedi academy's movement to be restricted too severely. Imagine if every class moved like SBDs, it would be very bad. Could look into something with regards to accuracy while running vs walking/crouching though.

 

[Lessen]

Thanks for not totally shitting on idea #2 without explanation. I was expecting at least one person to just give a classic "no that's retarded" kinda response.

Now, for counterarguments. Or at least commentary.

#1 - It would ruin clone and arc (stamina ability) since they are based around shooting on the move

What I'm trying to do is to tone down the sheer "randomness" of trying to hit classes like staminaclone/staminaarc/hero/BH in a gunfight. So yes, making this change by itself would necessarily nerf those four classes, and would require some compensatory buff to the four of them. But each of those classes would retain very high evasiveness before they fire. Also, ARC would still retain wacky dexterity jumps etc which would keep it harder to hit even with soldier-movespeed-while-firing.

#2 - It would make attacking fortified positions MUCH harder for gunners. Do we really want to buff the defending teams?

You're saying this because people wouldn't be able to charge fullspeed WHILE suppressing, right? It's a good point. I do like the idea of one person firing suppressing fire to cover the advance of another person, but it IS clearly a nerf either way. Again, maybe some kind of compensation could be found.

edit: One compensatory idea would be to have P1, P2, and P3-in-alt-mode not slow you down, so that you can still suppress while running, with a slow firing but accurate gun.

P3 primary mode would still slow you down.

That's not even mentioning the fact that the overall gameplay will slow down dramatically.

I'm... not sure it would, actually. Fast classes would still have fast runspeed up until the moment they fire. I think what it would actually lead to would people running in to try to get as close as possible before they fire, THEN engaging at a closer range where aim is plausible, or engaging from the most favorable position they can find. I think you'd see LESS long range sprayfights (except with soldiers, who can't move faster anyway) and more running forward to claim positions.

AND, if two people got in an open-ground gunfight, it would certainly resolve faster, since they'd each be easier to hit.

But in general I find it really aggravating on normal weapons

hmmmmmmm. Understandable. "Losing mobility" can be frustrating. It's worth noting that when it's applied to all guns, it's essentially sort of an inverted implementation of a Modern Shooter sprint key. Splitting your movement into "going fast" and "shooting." And it doesn't need to slow down your movement quite as tremendously as other games' "slow to a total crawl while firing your minigun." I mean, Soldier speed isn't that bad.

What's aggravating to ME is that Heroes (etc) are zipping around at warp speed while firing. Hero canonically make sense as someone who runs like hell, sure, but they make MORE sense dashing from cover to cover than they do just doing a long crazy zippy dance in the line of fire.

And from a gameplay perspective, I just think that no class should be faster than, like, ET/Comm, at all, OR some restriction like Idea #2 should be put in. Because super fast gun classes are just so very very "random" to hit in a gunfight.

#2 is probably a bit of a dubious change.

#1 is something we should look into. I just tried if I can move faster while crouching than walking IRL - I couldn't. The question I guess is which one is the better speed?

I'd lean towards matching walk speed with crouch speed since that has the least impact on high levels play as pros will naturally gravitate towards crouching as opposed to walking.

Yes, that's what I was thinking as well. Buff walk to crouchwalk speed. It's what makes sense for gunner, as you said. BUT, as SeV's pointed out, the opposite is true for sabering. Nerfing crouchwalk to walk speed is what makes sense for sabering. Cuz buffing walkspeed is a big effect in the context of dueling. There's a few slightly different ways to resolve this.

 

[RC-Delta]

Tbh if you did that I'd, idea #2, I'd wait till the other guy shoots first to get some easier damage while I'm still a harder to hit target

 

[Lessen]

^ Interesting point. I almost wouldn't consider that a downside since it at least incentivizes both players getting really close to each other before they fire lol, since once you're close enough there's a much higher chance of your first shot hitting and giving you the advantage. And that means the gameplay would be faster paced.

There ARE other ways to solve the problem of "overly impossible to hit" ultrafast gunners so I won't die on this hill if there's another hill nearby that accomplishes the same objective. Just flat-out nerfing the top speeds of the top-speed classes down to ET speed, and then compensating with other buffs (buffs to armor, dodge, etc) would be fine with me. It would reduce the flavor but it would also reduce my rage.

 

[RC-Delta]

I'd really prefer if all speeds weren't nerfed, why not just increase blaster bolt speeds a bit so it's less predicting and such.

 

[Puppytine]

Really not sure about #2, but #1 should be implemented asap.
Moving faster while crouching compared to regular walking doesn't make any sense.

 

[Lessen]

why not just increase blaster bolt speeds a bit so it's less predicting and such

First off, in case you're unaware, blaster speeds are being increased 15% next patch.

Second off, I like the prediction element of MB2 but I think particular classes are just so fast it makes the prediction game senselessly hard. By having such high move speed, they have a HUGE array of "possible places they might be by the time your shot arrives." Slow classes like soldier have a much smaller array of possible places to be, and have to commit harder to a particular direction just to move far enough to get out of the way of a shot. I want to reduce the "number of movement options" available to fast classes, down to the "number of movement options" available to slow classes, but I don't mind them keeping their high speed when "out of combat" or "not firing."

Increasing shot speeds more would only go so far in making it plausible to hit those classes, and it would also go too far in making it easy to hit slower classes. So I think something needs to be done specifically to the movement speed of those faster classes.

Currently, those classes are to some degree designed around being so damn hard to hit, and I basically just disagree with the entire design decision of ever making any class (besides maybe speed Jedi) that hard to hit, mid-fight. But I don't think it would take too much tweaking to edit that design decision out.

(Jedi and Sith can stay fast since they already have to limit their movement options to land a swing.) (Although I wouldn't mind a slight slowdown.)

edit: Also, pretty sure that Hero etc are so fast that with the way the netcode works, a hero who's rapidly switching direction gives other players fairly inaccurate view of where they actually are, because the client predicts them to move further in each direction than they actually do. The result being a wiggly hero looks like they're moving faster than they are. I suppose anyone wiggling has this effect, but faster classes have this effect more egregiously. If the sv_fps was 60 or even higher, instead of 40, this problem would be reduced and hero would be a little easier to hit, but that would be a waaaay bigger change, code-wise.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

With heavy weapons and such it could be cool - maybe for snipers too, but I'd definitely hate to see any changes to movement speed while firing on ARC, considering the class is entirely built around firing on the move and avoiding shots rather than engaging in a slugging match with your enemies or firing from cover.

I mean hell, even with dex 3 - if you have soldier run speed whenever you shoot, that's gonna slow you down post wall-run and trying to avoid shots, IMO this would break the entire class and render most play styles involving movement rather pointless, you're better off running another class.

 

[Lessen]

Hmmm..... I think in gun vs gun ARC would retain a big "mobility advantage" just thanks to being able to jump all over the place, but I can understand not wanting to remove any agility from that class, since the agility is the fun of the class.

I know my idea is pretty balls-out crazy (hence the "viva la revolucion" label), but I do think something ought to be done to reduce the "impossibility" of hitting hero/BH.

Although until that happens, I'll certainly continue trying to get better skill-wise at hitting Hero/BH.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

Try and set up timenudge if you haven't already - hitting moving targets becomes much easier/more consistent with cl_timenudge set to -40 or -60 in my experience.

 

[MaxorMjauCRO]

Try and set up timenudge if you haven't already - hitting moving targets becomes much easier/more consistent with cl_timenudge set to -40 or -60 in my experience.

Just a quick (offtopic) question:

What exactly does cl_timenudge do?

3. Play around with cl_timenudge values. I don't know if I my understanding of this is completely accurate (so someone chime in if you've got a better description of how timenudge works), but I've found cl_timenudge -50 very helpful when playing on low ping and a steady connection. I'm not sure what the actual minimum value is, but -50 should clamp it to whatever the actual lowest is. This disables (or sets as low as it can go?) the built in lag compensation in the game. This results in other players' movement appearing slightly more jerky to you (assuming you have a stable connection, if not they might get significantly more jerky), but there's less delay between when your game receives info from the server to when it displays it on your screen. This can be very helpful for timing based things (again, like shooting jedi during swings). Setting timenudge to negative values probably isn't a good idea on higher pings though.

Can someone confirm this?

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

Just a quick (offtopic) question:

What exactly does cl_timenudge do?

As far as I understand it, it is a form of lag compensation. Though it can make enemies appear a little jittery it should smoothen out their movement a lot - helps a lot in tracking.

 

[Lessen]

Try and set up timenudge if you haven't already - hitting moving targets becomes much easier/more consistent with cl_timenudge set to -40 or -60 in my experience.

The in-game library describes it as "helps compensate for lag by making the player's movements smoother at the cost of other clients appearing laggier to the player." Which sounded unpleasant to me, but if you say it helps in your experience, I'll try it out.

 

[Puppytine]

What exactly does cl_timenudge do?

While I cannot give you a straight answer, I can provide some opinions about timenudge:

@SeV, [Guide] The Dueling Compendium :
"Makes enemies choppier in exchange for being able to react earlier/quicker. Experiment with -25 or -15 if you feel 50 is too much. This is not necessary, but it might help you if you've got a higher ping than the norm."

@TehJumpingJawa, https://community.moviebattles.org/threads/mb2-vs-ea-bf.392/#post-4062 :
"A minor improvement can be achieved in JA/MB2 with the console command "cl_timenudge -X" where 0<=X<yourPing.
It works by forcing your client to predict Xms into the future, thereby mitigating the latency of your inputs.
However it has side-effects; most noticeably other players will appear to warp when they change direction."

@ent, Hello Again :
"As I told, there is nothing you can do to lower the ping.
Timenudge is just a joke feature in general. It does not force to predict anything at all. You just force to delay packets recieving, so you are even more in past on your client side. So you see the game a bit more synchronized with the server, but you actually delayed in general. The ping is left the same and the sum of the fake ping + timenudge is still the same ol good ping.
Do not fool yourself, play with actual delay - it will teach you predict things correctly and everything will be smooth.
Learning with timenudge can make pseudo positive experience, but learning actual combat would be harder after this.

The only one and the best way to compensate the ping among players is to implement the unlagged system. With that system the server applies events with knowledge what user had on the given event, and if, for example, shot event hit something on client side the server check its own "history" with current time minus user delay time and the user actually could hit anything at that moment then the shot get applied.
Such a system already done in ja++, for example. I tested it with aussie guy and it worked fine. Prolly having it in MBII could help.

Anyways, that's sad that timenudge brainwashed people that much but hope my explanations undo it for someone."

 

[Lessen]

edit: Timenudge is confusing.

Since it attempts to decrease your lag, it must result in more prediction, right? Which would result in more warping when someone changes direction. I'm not sure why ent says timenudge delays packets receiving. Timenudge seems like it can do that if you set it to a positive value, which would possibly reduce warping but give you more lag, as ent says it does, but most people play with timenudge at a negative value, which as I understand it should mean more prediction, meaning enemies at more up-to-date locations, but also more warping when they change direction.

It sounds like @ent only learned about using positive values for timenudge and forgot about negative values or something.

an interesting post by some guy on some forum

- Using negative timenudge moves your client time forward, causing you to use more recent snapshots, even if this requires extrapolation. This gives you a warpier, but more up to date view of the server.
- Positive timenudge moves your client time backwards, causing you to use older snapshots, even if more recent ones are available. This essentially simulates a higher ping, although on a fluxy connection, it could make things smoother as well.

For myself, I hate the extrapolation warping that's especially caused by hero/BH doing a wiggle-dance, but I also would hate seeing everything happening on a delay (since it makes it even harder to react to saber ambushes), so..... hmmm....

edit 2: bonus weirdness, when I close and reopen my game (JAMP engine), my timenudge value resets to 0 no matter what I set it to. I only play on <55 ping servers anyway so I suppose I don't have much to worry about either way...

 

[ent]

It sounds like @ent only learned about using positive values for timenudge and forgot about negative values or something.

I did not learn anything, I only looked at code.
Also you cannot be in the future, unfortunately.
As said above your packets are extrapolated aka guessed by the game, they do not show the real game data.

edit 2: bonus weirdness, when I close and reopen my game (JAMP engine), my timenudge value resets to 0 no matter what I set it to. I only play on <55 ping servers anyway so I suppose I don't have much to worry about either way...

jedis/jediacademy - it has CVAR_TEMP flag, so it is designed to get reset.
Add that cvar into autoexec.cfg or better do not use timenudge at all as @Puppytine suggested.
And yeah your ping is really low, no need any adjustments.