Thoughts regarding movement

[Tempest]

I seem to be running into discussions/suggestions regarding player movement more and more so I've decided to create a thread solely dedicated to it. Given that there's basically been no variation from base movement aside from class-specific modifiers and class specials that affect either the speed of the player or involve some kind of displacement (Dash/Rolls/Wook rage/barge mainly), I think that it's been one of the more subtle parts of MB2 and gone unexamined.

That said, the most consistently observed/mentioned issues arise from a similar source: Strafing. Whether it's the speeds of Jedi/Sith making it nearly unrealistic/unreliable to accurately hit them, dueling and having someone being able to zig-zag at max speeds in any direction at any given time, or some classes simply being at a massive disadvantage compared to others because they're slower by a large enough margin that they can't avoid shots while the others they're they're spray n' praying at the ones they're duking it out with and hoping they land the shots (because the enemy can stafe back and forth fast enough that you basically have to hope you'll hit them). That's not to say there's no skill in the maneuvering/gunning/whatever by default but anyone that says that there's no element of the above consistently present probably hasn't been paying much attention, IMO.

I'm not proposing to make every class the same speed or reduce strafe speeds to snail-pace or anything like that. I'm mostly just curious about the thoughts of the community, whether regarding what I mentioned above or anything related and suggestions they have for addressing them (assuming they see/find any problems with what I've said or other things that get brought up). I do also know that a lot of what I've described relates to what gives MB2 a lot of its addictive flavor and I don't want to take away from what makes it entertaining at its core if it's avoidable. Will be interesting to see where things go with this in any case.

 

[Crusader]

all my deaths are due to stupid lucky gimmicky noobs

what really pisses me off is the longer these noobs play the game, the luckier they get...

Please don't touch strafe.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I like how the only argument people seem to give is "This good player killed me a bunch, so there can't be luck"

This is like reasoning with a dog that has only ever known his kennel.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

I like how the only argument people seem to give is "This good player killed me a bunch, so there can't be luck"

This is like reasoning with a dog that has only ever known his kennel.

Black kettle

You haven't proven us wrong and its been a circle this entire time now.
Complaining about no proof and then not posting proof yourself isn't how you win the argument.

Its how you circle jerk.
There are thousands of demos that can prove the game is skill based that you can most likely look up on youtube. But you haven't provided objective subsistence to prove your point. Your memories and experiences is not tangible evidence. Nobody can physically touch or see them thus making it subjective.

Your argument is not fact, but opinion. And opinion alone, you can act like their facts but if you refuse to prove they are facts.
They will remain opinions.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Black kettle

You haven't proven us wrong and its been a circle this entire time now.
Complaining about no proof and then not posting proof yourself isn't how you win the argument.

Its how you circle jerk.
There are thousands of demos that can prove the game is skill based that you can most likely look up on youtube. But you haven't provided objective subsistence to prove your point. Your memories and experiences is not tangible evidence. Nobody can physically touch or see them thus making it subjective.

Your argument is not fact, but opinion. And opinion alone, you can act like their facts but if you refuse to prove they are facts.
They will remain opinions.

It isn't like you can have proof in this instance. Your 'demos' aren't really evidence of disproving my point that there is more luck involved in instances of MB2 than there should be. I can also prove this to anyone willing to step in-game with me, count how many shots they can land on me, and do a consistency test. This isn't something that should be difficult to understand.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

It isn't like you can have proof in this instance. Your 'demos' aren't really evidence of disproving my point that there is more luck involved in instances of MB2 than there should be. I can also prove this to anyone willing to step in-game with me, count how many shots they can land on me, and do a consistency test. This isn't something that should be difficult to understand.

Then I guess we are stuck in a back and fourth then with no progress.
You won't provide proof, and you won't believe our proof even if I post it.

You can continue to complain and give your feedback but if you expect anything to get done.
You need to do your homework, you can type paragraph of paragraph all you want but if you don't have tangible evidence that everyone can see, it's not going to go anywhere and you will go back to square one.

 

[andrew]

if you really care about luck being a factor in gunning, the only reasonable option is (as someone pointed out) removing the spread from guns

without gun spread, this game is actually a more fair version of quake.

if someone actually has the balls to call quake luck based id be surprised

just dont tell anyone you can hold shift on some guns and suddenly they fire accurately

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I like how the only argument people seem to give is "This good player killed me a bunch, so there can't be luck"

No, you're just ignoring other arguments entirely. Or dancing around them.

ALL LUCK NO SKILL

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

No, you're just ignoring other arguments entirely. Or dancing around them.

ALL LUCK NO SKILL

Eugh, as trend setting and history making quake was.
Never a fan of the constant jumping and speed combat. And I honestly hate instant kills that are not headshots, AWP bullshit is still easy and old.

Like I was able to stomach tribes because I was able to do shit that involved utility work for the team and had my fun that way.
I honestly prefer arcade shooters grounded with realistic movement and gun play, IE MB2, insurgency, tf2, lead and gold, Empires.
That is more my speed instead of jumping around like crack rabbits.

Though if anyone played "The Specialists" that half life 1 mod where it mimics matrix combat. That had good movement and that shit was fast and didn't have crouch jumping spam.

Heres an idea its and bit off topic.

Spoiler

But could you make a mode where players have bases and shit but traditional MB2 combat fitted for it?

I know your working on a new gamemode but if you managed to incorporate some tribes shit like generators, ai turrets, and objective flag capturing.
But keep to that realistic arcade combat, that would be swell. Or copy shit from C&C renegade? I am not asking for vehicles, but a game-mode where you free spawn and have objectives to complete would pretty refreshing. Nox esq multiplayer could work. I am going to explain this one because it's obscure as fuck and I know not a lot of people played it.

Spoiler

Pick 1 of 3 classes and you spawn in a base, and there is equipment on the floor around the base. You click on the equipment and your character equips it and the skills you have are from the class you selected. Warriors have like 6 skills, perfect for offense. Wizards have a shitload of spells and basically range. Conjurers are people who can summon monsters and worked great for base defense, had bows and crossbows. The equipment on the floor is either weapons or armor.

The equipment you picked up was class locked, so you could not wear knight armor as a wizard. And people would drop thier equipment upon death, allowing you to loot corpses of enemy players.

Shit, I will even take a retrofitted siege mode suited for MB2.
That is the more realistic option. Easier to code and balance, not to mention maps for it already exist in the base game. Just gotta figure out how classes are going to work.

Would be great change of pace instead of constantly playing last man standing game-modes. TDM is boring, structure is what makes multiplayer games fun and I think MB2 can work with free spawn game modes and structure.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Eugh, as trend setting and history making quake was.

The point was to show peoples ability to aim and lead targets over vast distances, huge speeds, with way slower projectile travel times than even mb2 has while some even having bullet drop.

 

[Gumba]

The current discussions are having this scheme:
-Achilles or Fou say some random shit that is not true in the slightest, moaning about things that everybody whos good in the game knows is fine.
-good players bash them for being stupid, bad jedi like their posts
-repeat

/end offtopic

On topic:
As some people here said I also see no reason to change movement, it is one of the things that make this game challenging and fun, you can instantly spot good player just by the way they move around.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

The point was to show peoples ability to aim and lead targets over vast distances, huge speeds, with way slower projectile travel times than even mb2 has while some even having bullet drop.

Really? Projectile travel speed looked the same to me minus the grenade bounce weapon.

The current discussions are having this scheme:
-Achilles or Fou say some random shit that is not true in the slightest, moaning about things that everybody whos good in the game knows is fine.
-good players bash them for being stupid, bad jedi like their posts
-repeat

I am bad at the game tho.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

No, you're just ignoring other arguments entirely. Or dancing around them.

ALL LUCK NO SKILL

You do realize all of the people in that video were jumping, which is a highly predictable trajectory. Not to mention, they were also using AoE weapons. You must be beyond retarded if you can't see the difference between attempting to shoot someone with a slow velocity weapon, and that someone can change their momentum *instantly*, vs shooting someone that has an extremely predictable trajectory.

I'll try to use another dumbed-down scenario for you people who are apparently too imbecilic to comprehend the issue here:

An archer can hit an incredibly fast moving target with an arrow, if he has the ability to consistently compensate for the target's momentum. Meaning, if the target keeps a relatively consistent rate of movement, and a consistent direction, then one can reliably hit the target... that is skill. An example of this, would be hitting a Mando flying with a blob.

Now, the Archer cannot hit an incredibly fast moving target with an arrow... if the target can SHIFT DIRECTIONS at random intervals with no loss of momentum. Imagine trying to hit a bird with a stone, and that bird can instantly change directions with 0 warning or loss of momentum. If the archer hits the target, it is pure luck.

What makes 'skill' in MB2, is simply experience, knowing how to take cover, knowing how to use weapons/gimmicks to their fullest. The actual aiming and gunplay in MB2, is MOSTLY luck, with the only exception being a slight skill floor to knowing how to lead targets. The reason for this luck, is because the targets can instantly shift momentum to a different direction, at THEIR will.

Now, I'm fairly positive a monkey with down-syndrome could understand the problem with the way I have stated it, if you need further assistance, I may need to use learning aids.


I have also fought Gumba many times, by the by, and I have quite consistently defeated him in most 1v1 scenarios, using an E-11. Maybe he sucks, or maybe at a certain point when we're both shooting at each other, his superior 'gunning' skills don't add up to much.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

I'll try to use another dumbed-down scenario for you people

Nice smug you got there.
Until you have factual evidence instead of a giant paragraph of you saying the game is luck based, it won't matter.

You can't duck this.
Everything you say and plan to say is an opinion unless you can provide proof.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Nice smug you got there.
Until you have factual evidence instead a giant paragraph of you saying the game is luck based, it won't matter.

You can't duck this.

Your stupidity is beyond overwhelming. Read it, and understand it, you ignorant baboon. You have also posted 0 evidence for your side, you have stated fallacies upon fallacies, and resorted to the most infuriating methods of trying to disprove someone. I'm tired of trying to be the bigger man in a room full of feces-flingers, with people like Gumba attempting to discredit everyone who agrees with me with such inane idiocy like calling them 'bad saberists' when he isn't even one of the top ten gunners I've fought.

I don't know how you could have ever determined something using your brain, without someone providing 'evidence' for you. Do you not understand the concept of logical debate? It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.


It is an opinion of mine that you are a primordial stain on the planet.

It is a fact that Movie Battles II gun-play requires a significant amount of luck, because many aspects go beyond human reaction time and potential skill.




I swear, the community on MB2 has made me an impatient angry old man. I thought the Dota 2 community was bad for making me racist towards Peruvians.

 

[Crusader]

anyone who says strafe is fine is a part of the elitist strafe society who abuse the lucky strafe gimmick to win fights and couldnt play the game without their noob lucky gimmick

i hate qwerty hes so lucky with his mouse movements i bet that noob abuses strafe too

 

[TadekRaeod]

An archer can hit an incredibly fast moving target with an arrow, if he has the ability to consistently compensate for the target's momentum. Meaning, if the target keeps a relatively consistent rate of movement, and a consistent direction, then one can reliably hit the target... that is skill. An example of this, would be hitting a Mando flying with a blob.

But isn't that also "luck",since you're predicting where the target is going to move?

Anyway,going IT,i think the moving speed is ok now.It was(i think)a problem for other players when soldiers with cc2 were strafing and jumping with e-11s equipped.A curiosity,though:does anyone know if the speed with cc1 in melee is faster than Clone/ARC sprint?

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Really? Projectile travel speed looked the same to me minus the grenade bounce weapon.

Nope theyre not, MB2 is heavily sped up against base.

You do realize all of the people in that video were jumping, which is a highly predictable trajectory. Not to mention, they were also using AoE weapons. You must be beyond retarded if you can't see the difference between attempting to shoot someone with a slow velocity weapon, and that someone can change their momentum *instantly*, vs shooting someone that has an extremely predictable trajectory..

And you clearly haven't watched the video or played arena shooters like this in general. People can change their direction fairly rapidly (Wall grab, stopping on the floor suddenly and turning around, walljumps, flips, boosts, force powers) In this video you saw several people with the patience to aim properly, even if it can be a more predictable movement at times (because several people didn't change direction much) but some of them are not only moving, they're curving while also having the person shooting turning 180 degrees in order to even hit them. Hell there is even a shot in the video of two people firing at the same person and both direct hitting at the same time. That takes considerable skill, tracking, prediction, aiming, etc. When I used to be able to do that, I was much better at mb2 than I am now. Newer games that rely less on it have made me worse at mb2 over the years since I stopped playing those types of games. Whenever I took the time to play mb2 constantly I was always better at any game I played afterwards because it forced me to use those skills. It takes a split section to see someone change their direction of movement, adjust, and fire for someone with those skills. And I know because I used to be able to do it, and there is evidence in montages on youtube of others capable of doing it. If you think mb2s aiming and movement is mostly luck based then you really really need to take a hard look at things. That is one of the largest falsities I have ever heard someone say about a video game.

Once again Achilles, you have everyone telling you that you're wrong and you resort to saying they're illogical and can't work with their brain or that you have to "dumb down" your post in order for them to understand. I am wondering when you are ever going to get off your high horse and acting like you're the logical brain child of god himself. Do you have any self-awareness? You're saying that you're the one with the "facts" and the several people who have started points against your arguments don't have the facts? Jesus fuck.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Your stupidity is beyond overwhelming. Read it, and understand it, you ignorant baboon. You have also posted 0 evidence for your side, you have stated fallacies upon fallacies, and resorted to the most infuriating methods of trying to disprove someone. I'm tired of trying to be the bigger man in a room full of feces-flingers, with people like Gumba attempting to discredit everyone who agrees with me with such inane idiocy like calling them 'bad saberists' when he isn't even one of the top ten gunners I've fought.

I don't know how you could have ever determined something using your brain, without someone providing 'evidence' for you. Do you not understand the concept of logical debate? It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.


It is an opinion of mine that you are a primordial stain on the planet.

It is a fact that Movie Battles II gun-play requires a significant amount of luck, because many aspects go beyond human reaction time and potential skill.




I swear, the community on MB2 has made me an impatient angry old man. I thought the Dota 2 community was bad for making me racist towards Peruvians.

How many infractions did that get you? I got like 1 when I cussed you out and used insults.
If you can't provide proof that movie battles 2 is a luck based shooter, and game of RNG. Then its not true at all, you can pretend, stomp, cry, and repeat yourself.

Its not a debate, this is an argument. This has been from the begining.
What's the difference between "debate" and "argument"?
If you don't provide proof for an argument, it's clear you are full of shit.

A debate would involve me actually doing something instead of crying for evidence. I would be breaking down your paragraph piece by piece and talking about it. Ask puppy, we spent a whole week doing that shit over the RTS dune game.

This is an argument, this has always been an argument. One that you have been loosing since you began your tirade.
And the fact you run away without providing proof means I don't have a reason to actually care what you have to say anymore. Nobody does actually. Because you started an argument with no facts to back up the shit your saying.

Stop being arrogant for once and do your goddamn homework.
You have some serious ego issues. You are arguing with people over a video-game on the internet. The worst way to spend your time, you are engaging with me. "Me" a self proclaimed retard, you are arguing with a retard. So who's the baboon now?

The retard saying retarded shit on the internet? Or you the guy who is arguing with the retard over the internet?
Remove that holier than thou attitude and maybe you will

Spoiler

git gud

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Someone strafes in one direction, I aim my crosshair quarter of inch to his side, I hit.(Depends on current resolution, small adjustments may be made.)

He suddenly strafes to other direction, I adjust to other side, placing cross where I know my shots will hit. I hit.
You argue what if they quickly strafe side to side - I point out, uh, they're mostly in the same spot then.

(Reaction time)Adjust and (Precision)aim accurately = Win.

Back and forth, I win.

My proof. I have 6 years of SS on this pc backing up my consistent superiority over 90% of the fools I encounter.

Being modest here
It's 9 gigs.

That's all luck?

GG.

p.s.

I'm crazy enough to spam it too.
How many you think I can post before my buzz wears off or a mod stops me?

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Nope theyre not, MB2 is heavily sped up against base.



And you clearly haven't watched the video or played arena shooters like this in general. People can change their direction fairly rapidly (Wall grab, stopping on the floor suddenly and turning around, walljumps, flips, boosts, force powers) In this video you saw several people with the patience to aim properly, even if it can be a more predictable movement at times (because several people didn't change direction much) but some of them are not only moving, they're curving while also having the person shooting turning 180 degrees in order to even hit them. Hell there is even a shot in the video of two people firing at the same person and both direct hitting at the same time. That takes considerable skill, tracking, prediction, aiming, etc. When I used to be able to do that, I was much better at mb2 than I am now. Newer games that rely less on it have made me worse at mb2 over the years since I stopped playing those types of games. Whenever I took the time to play mb2 constantly I was always better at any game I played afterwards because it forced me to use those skills. It takes a split section to see someone change their direction of movement, adjust, and fire for someone with those skills. And I know because I used to be able to do it, and there is evidence in montages on youtube of others capable of doing it. If you think mb2s aiming and movement is mostly luck based then you really really need to take a hard look at things. That is one of the largest falsities I have ever heard someone say about a video game.

Once again Achilles, you have everyone telling you that you're wrong and you resort to saying they're illogical and can't work with their brain or that you have to "dumb down" your post in order for them to understand. I am wondering when you are ever going to get off your high horse and acting like you're the logical brain child of god himself. Do you have any self-awareness? You're saying that you're the one with the "facts" and the several people who have started points against your arguments don't have the facts? Jesus F**k.

I have played Arena shooters, they are either hitscan which removes most of the element of luck, or they have enormous AoE projectiles, which removes most of the element of luck. The people you showed in the video were not affected by luck, because their targets followed consistent trajectories through the phenomenon known as 'gravity', shocker I know.

Your 'skill' improving on MB2 by playing games on a similar engine is a moot point, and has nothing to do with the amount of luck present in MB2.

I don't believe 6-7 people on the forum disagreeing with me counts as 'everyone'.

Now here's a fun little game for you to play, spot the fact within your statement here, because I haven't found one that relates to the subject. What I see is someone that has brought forward a non-sequitur, followed by a populum fallacy, and then trailed by an ad-hominem. Magnificent.