The next steps forward

Hey everyone. I know that a lot of were expecting changes for the current state of saber v gunner and/or saber v saber in this patch but I assure you, things are still in motion to get those settled and pushed out!

As a preface, MB2 has had a theme of changing things for the sake of changing or trying to address problems in really weird/roundabout ways and not actually solving the issues. This leads/has led to problems not actually being solved and/or creating new ones (although there's been a lot of cool stuff along the way). Moving forward, there's going to be more focus on adjusting things to being able to have more static baselines (e.g. there shouldn't be any major overhauls to saber v gunner interactions once all of this stuff is sorted out) or prepping for future changes, whether completely new features or more intricate adjustments to current ones.

We want to make the game feel more dynamic, volatile, exciting, and of course, fun. That is the main focus of these changes for the next patch as well as the long term goal for MB2 overall.

That said, some time in the following days, we are going to set up an open beta for testing the adjustments to saber v gunner. This will likely involve reconfiguring one of the official servers with the new changes (no messing with files for anyone who wants to try them out!), having a channel on the official discord dedicated to discussions, as well as scheduled times for when devs/beta testers will be around to observe/gather feedback firsthand during gameplay.

Things that will be different and that will be closely looked at include (but aren't limited to) the following:

• No more flinch
• No more FP regen debuff
• Increased knockback against saberists
• Jedi/Sith only having damage reduction in specific circumstances (not universally)
• Changes to caps on FP drains (especially for blocking)
• Tweaks to Pistol/Bowcaster charged damage
• Ammo changes for the Projectile Rifle
• Adjustments to projectile speeds

There's more but those are the main points of interest for gameplay changes. Additionally, what's listed in the final changelog that will be included with the open beta is not the extent of what's being looked at. This is just what's been fully agreed on, vetted, and implemented.

I'm also hoping that more transparency on what's being worked on as well as why will help improve community relations in the long run and make it easier for both those working on the mod as well as those waiting for new toys/features/etc. On that note, for those still wondering about the saber system changes, we're still working on figuring out the details since those aren't purely server-side adjustments. Stay tuned for more info!

 

[marksisms]

The removal of flinch is counterbalanced by the "increased [blaster] knockback on jedi" and, to some degree, by the increased shot speed. Now, instead of knocking back the jedi's arms, you knock back the WHOLE jedi! In theory, it could mean you need to land significantly fewer shots on the jedi to stay safe. We'll have to see.

I suppose with the way knockback works (damage based), there'll probably be a huge difference between bodyshotting and headshotting the jedi. ... We'll have to see how it pans out.

As a tryhard gunner main, I'm excited, at least.

lol why even bother removing flinch when you're gonna add something even worse? I say we just cancel saberists altogether and make mb2 an fps. since saberists are getting more useless every update lol.

 

[Onysfx]

One thing I might add is, can you make Disruptor 1 at least somewhat useful? Perhaps allow it to half charge instead of full, for decent damage but not instakill.

lol why even bother removing flinch when you're gonna add something even worse? I say we just cancel saberists altogether and make mb2 an fps. since saberists are getting more useless every update lol.

Sabertists are still the most powerful class in the game (IMO). They can take way too much shots right now when they should be dead from a couple. Just the removal of damage resist would help this a lot, but they should still get damage resist to rockets, nades, melee and fire.

@marksisms although I have to agree with you about dotf, I kinda miss many aspects of the old one. I was thinking of a hybrid between the two, keeping the best aspects from both. The old dotf side passages to the throne room were way better gameplay wise than what we have now, wish that could be brought back. However the main corridor in new dotf is far superb gameplay wise and aesthetically imo, you can actually have cover halfway down now.

tl;dr: Old dotf throne route was better, main corridor in new dotf is better.

 

[Lessen]

lol why even bother removing flinch when you're gonna add something even worse? I say we just cancel saberists altogether and make mb2 an fps. since saberists are getting more useless every update lol.

"We'll have to see." lol

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

I hope this knockback stuff is actually useful enough to replace flinch. If not - GG WP, I'm becoming a cortosis SBD main.

 

[foggy]

projectile speeds

I am a bit worried about this. It's kinda frustrating to adjust to new velocities, and current seem to be quite okay - not too fast, not too slow

 

[Stassin]

Yeah the current speeds are okay and feel right lore-wise, but it will be fine if the increase is small.

I see people are wondering about knockback with flinch gone: i don't test beta anymore but i can say given the values tempest is trying out, knockback won't fill the same role as flinch, it won't save you when the jedi is swinging in melee range (if it did, that would feel absurd and look very bad as you'd literally send the jedi flying) unless you get some unlikely headshots. It will help when the jedi is at the limit of his swing's range. The normal knockback already does that in fact so i'm not sure it's even warranted to increase it, but it should be ok with only a small increase.

 

[Fang]

Mhm, going back oldschool to the gunner knockback system for jedi/sith at the cost of inconsistency flinch. Hopefully, it is a good return.

 

[S o l d i e r]

Oh, no, here we go back again to those saberists-owning-everyone times.

 

[FRANK LAMPART]

• No more flinch
• No more FP regen debuff

THANK GOD FOR THAT, OH MY GOD. NEVER THOUGHT I'D SEE THE DAY!

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

Yeah the current speeds are okay and feel right lore-wise, but it will be fine if the increase is small.

I see people are wondering about knockback with flinch gone: i don't test beta anymore but i can say given the values tempest is trying out, knockback won't fill the same role as flinch, it won't save you when the jedi is swinging in melee range (if it did, that would feel absurd and look very bad as you'd literally send the jedi flying) unless you get some unlikely headshots. It will help when the jedi is at the limit of his swing's range. The normal knockback already does that in fact so i'm not sure it's even warranted to increase it, but it should be ok with only a small increase.

What's the tradeoff, then? The flinch got removed because the majority of people recognized it as an unreliable/unfitting mechanic. Okay, fine. But if I remember correctly, it was put into the game in the first place to prevent gunners from being completely demolished in CQC by saberists. So, what's going to stop the lightstick wielders now?

Are we literally going back to 1.3?

 

[Stassin]

What's the tradeoff, then? The flinch got removed because the majority of people recognized it as an unreliable/unfitting mechanic. Okay, fine. But if I remember correctly, it was put into the game in the first place to prevent gunners from being completely demolished in CQC by saberists. So, what's going to stop the lightstick wielders now?

Are we literally going back to 1.3?

Pre-v1.1, saberists weren't OP yet there was no flinch, as sev said in the first part of his post here. In 1.3 they were retardedly OP, because of some monstrously strong perks, that's all. There should be no perks anymore.

 

[Gumba]

Pre-v1.1, saberists weren't OP yet there was no flinch, as sev said in the first part of his post here. In 1.3 they were retardedly OP, because of some monstrously strong perks, that's all. There should be no perks anymore.

I'm pretty sure there was no swingblock on blaster shots either(other than Q3). Thats what made it balanced.

 

[Stassin]

I'm pretty sure there was no swingblock on blaster shots either(other than Q3). Thats what made it balanced.

Having swingblocks would only be an issue with the current public ultra low drains. With higher drains coming, as soon as you swingblock once you'd get low enough FP to be forced to retreat immediately without taking any other chances (with saber def 3; with saber def 2 you'd get your FP destroyed and be unable to even retreat).

In fact i think it's rather the opposite: with flinch swingblocking was actually important. Without flinch why would you want to swingblock and risk getting your FP destroyed on top of getting slower movement, when you can simply continue the swing freely and potentially get a kill, except when you are already really low HP ?

I believe what you are getting at is rather the fact that even after missing a swing, people would still be vulnerable to blaster fire for the whole duration of the animation until it completely returned to the normal stance. Swingblock helps against that which is actually nice.

Regardless i'm not sure what you are referring to, as in having no swingblocks made what balanced ? 1.3 ? No. Pre-v1.1 ? No, the main reason is high FP drains, so that a saberist can't stand next to a gunner forever.

 

[Gumba]

Having swingblocks would only be an issue with the current public ultra low drains. With higher drains coming, as soon as you swingblock once you'd get low enough FP to be forced to retreat immediately without taking any other chances (with saber def 3; with saber def 2 you'd get your FP destroyed and be unable to even retreat).

In fact i think it's rather the opposite: with flinch swingblocking was actually important. Without flinch why would you want to swingblock and risk getting your FP destroyed on top of getting slower movement, when you can simply continue the swing freely and potentially get a kill, except when you are already really low HP ?

I believe what you are getting at is rather the fact that even after missing a swing, people would still be vulnerable to blaster fire for the whole duration of the animation until it completely returned to the normal stance. Swingblock helps against that which is actually nice.

Regardless i'm not sure what you are referring to, as in having no swingblocks made what balanced ? 1.3 ? No. Pre-v1.1 ? No, the main reason is high FP drains, so that a saberist can't stand next to a gunner forever.

What I was talking about was: Jedi swings -> Gunner hits body -> Jedi gets knocked back and misses swing.
But I generally agree with you on the FP drains

 

[FRANK LAMPART]

Having swingblocks would only be an issue with the current public ultra low drains. With higher drains coming, as soon as you swingblock once you'd get low enough FP to be forced to retreat immediately without taking any other chances (with saber def 3; with saber def 2 you'd get your FP destroyed and be unable to even retreat).

In fact i think it's rather the opposite: with flinch swingblocking was actually important. Without flinch why would you want to swingblock and risk getting your FP destroyed on top of getting slower movement, when you can simply continue the swing freely and potentially get a kill, except when you are already really low HP ?

I believe what you are getting at is rather the fact that even after missing a swing, people would still be vulnerable to blaster fire for the whole duration of the animation until it completely returned to the normal stance. Swingblock helps against that which is actually nice.

Regardless i'm not sure what you are referring to, as in having no swingblocks made what balanced ? 1.3 ? No. Pre-v1.1 ? No, the main reason is high FP drains, so that a saberist can't stand next to a gunner forever.

I have some old recordings of me playing on 1.3 back in 2015. Now you say "ultra low drains", but didn't the FP drains get increased substantially between now and then?. Also, getting increased FP drains whilst running, but less when blocking. I also compared the FP regen rate back then to now, and it regenerated almost twice as fast back then.

I just don't think there needs to be anymore FP drains, really. I agree swingblocking should only be able to be used once or twice before depleting your f with flinch gone.

Tempest mentioned a "slight" increase in projectile speed. Wouldn't that also increase FP drains indirectly because of the better accuracy. I don't know how much "slight" is, so.

 

[Stassin]

What I was talking about was: Jedi swings -> Gunner hits body -> Jedi gets knocked back and misses swing.
But I generally agree with you on the FP drains

Jedi would get knocked back enough to miss a swing only if the gunner hit a headshot, so swingblocking would be a poor choice in basically almost all situations except when attacking someone knocked down or dueling another saberist, where it is actually very useful and good to have (pre-v1.1 lacked that). But yea, the main point is the FP drains anyways.

I have some old recordings of me playing on 1.3 back in 2015. Now you say "ultra low drains", but didn't the fp drains get increased universally between now and then?. Also, getting increased FP drains whilst running but less when blocking. I also compared the FP regen rate back then to now, and it regenerated almost twice as fast back then.

I just don't think there needs to be anymore fp drains, really. I agree swingblocking should only be able to be used once or twice with flinch gone.

Tempest mentioned a "slight" increase in projectile speed. Wouldn't that also increase FP drains indirectly because of the better accuracy. I don't know how much "slight" is, so.

Nah, in v1.3 the drains were still similar to pre-v1.1, the saber vs gun rework with flinch, low blocking drains etc. happened somewhere in v1.4. About FP regen i'm not sure in v1.3 but pre-v1.1 it was definitely lower than now; but something like twice as fast in 1.3 can only be due to either you comparing it with the current FP regen debuff mechanic, not the current base FP regen, or playing a style that had a higher regen perk in v1.3. Yeah better accuracy means more FP drains at middle & long ranges, though in close range it changes almost nothing.

 

[QuoVadis?]

I've played this mod on and off since its inception. I have never joined the forums until now. This is exciting. Flinch can make it impossible for a saberist to 1v1 a decent gunner. Or maybe I just suck. Sometimes the FP drain seems too much, other times too little. I am glad you guys are attempting to balance this stuff.

 

[FRANK LAMPART]

. Sometimes the FP drain seems too much, other times too little.

Basically the FP drain is significantly lower when you're blocking. So if you didn't know that, then the drains may seem a bit random, but it's not.

The handicap of lower drains when blocking is that you can barely move, so the gunner has more time to get distance from you. So you just need to tap it at the right moment really.

 

[Manyo]

While i agree with some concerns, i'm looking forward to seeing the changes in action.

 

[Tempest]

Flinch doesn't actually stop any of the previous tactics that smarter saberists use to kill gunners (primarily good timing of crouch swinging or utilizing some acrobatics with swings; even if flinch activation range was increased, it would only somewhat minimize these). The issue with flinch is that it's inconsistent, doesn't apply fairly across guns (see SBD/clone rifle as obvious examples), and doesn't apply fairly across saber styles (rip Red; meanwhile Blue/Cyan/Duals laugh at how little effect flinch has on them). It's very little effort for huge rewards in almost all circumstances (this isn't saying that you can't utilize it skillfully/intentionally but being able to sit in a corner/against a wall and completely negating a saber by holding 1 button is a bit silly). All of the counter-balances (damage reduction, low FP drains against blocking jedi, etc) for flinch make the rest of the gameplay feel worse (as many people, including/primarily Sev (in his big thread), have explained on a number of occasions). Saberists taking 8 or however many shots and still being able to kill a gunner is actually more than they could do before flinch (and wasn't the whole point of flinch to stop saberists from trading health for kills..?) so nothing actually changed except making a lot of the gameplay stale and feeling like it relies on RNG half the time. It's just making gunners rely on FP drains that don't exist or trying to hit all the spastic flailers for the massive running drains while saberists have to rely on flailing or crutching on deflect (which just results in a stalemate against decent gunners because why would you shoot a saberist if they're going to deflect shots at you while you do basically 0 FP damage?).

Without damage reduction (which is currently also reducing/completely nullifying knockback against saberists @Stassin ), the default knockback isn't enough to keep a saberist off of you at point blank range. With the adjustments I did (which don't apply to head shots since those already send saberists flying fairly far on their own), one shot from say, a clone rifle (since it has low base damage), won't be able to stop a saberist from running at you. Consecutive hits from one person will be able to stop/slow them enough to make maneuvering much easier for the gunner (keeping it relatively fair for both sides of the engagement). Multiple people hitting the saberist will stop them from advancing or straight up push them back (the extent varying obviously on the damage being dealt). Mixing in higher damage hits (like a p3 shot) will actually be consistently useful for keeping a saberist off of you. In most cases though, you won't actually need to rely on knockback because the saberists will actually just die when shot (maybe a max of 2 shots from full health for higher powered weapons, 3-5 for lower damaging ones).