The Great Debate (Timelimit)

[Kuras]

I'm going to clear the field here since it seems the only two who are confused here are the ones replying to me. I am not here to ask you to change the official ruleset, I've clarified that numerous times. I'm here to ask you allow customization options that aren't limited to UNOFFICIAL servers. I do not care if you want to run your mod like Hitler and his cronies on the OFFICIAL servers but to take away choice from everyone else because of a decision myself and my clan made years ago to modify the FA file is downright foolish and incredibly shortsighted.

Five minutes is perfect for competitive matches, there you go. I'll submit to that. @Defiant What modes are considered Competitive now that the DevTeam is coding and introducing an actual Competitive mode? If Duel Mode and Open Mode are not considered competitive then why are they arbitrarily limited to five minutes? Five minutes is too short of a time for a duel to take place between two skilled opponents and find any satisfaction in the result of that fight. I've seen people claim the same in the other topics concerning time limits and duel mode. As for Open Mode? There is nothing OPEN about a hardcoded time limit without the option to at least increase it to a maximum or remove it entirely. FA/Competitive can remain as they are and that's just my opinion as I do not feel that those two modes would benefit at all from increasing time limits, perhaps maybe a modest extension to FA to 15 minutes maximum?

You are not compromising gameplay by allowing the game to play out for longer or giving the server owners and admins the ability to modify the cvars how they see fit. You are giving them freedom of choice and flexibility which is a positive benefit as a result of allowing them to modify settings that change the ruleset within reason.

Since you are working within a set of variables that you've demanded of me I'll partake.

Excuse me, but you haven't made any strong points. You haven't explained:

• Why 5 minutes is not a suitable value
• What a suitable value (Or range) would be
• Why that value or range is more suitable than 5 minutes.

Note that acceptable arguments do not include 'Because other people do it'.

1) Five Minutes is incredibly limiting and unrewarding for non-competitive gameplay where regular players and newbies are just trying to stretch their legs and get a feel for the game. Sure, death and having to wait will suck and detract from the experience but that's why in these NON-COMPETITIVE game-modes you can allow the servers to enable respawning after X period of time in defined zones within the teams spawn. For competitive play? It's perfect because it gives the sense of a time-crunch and limited time to allow for a victory, it enhances skill and gameplay for those players but not for the one's seeking a more mild/fun experience from your mod that no other game provides. (Don't even mention BF2 as that game is a disaster.)

2) A single value is limiting, a range is more preferred. How about we start with the already defined 5 minute default as the minimum? 5 minutes to 15 minutes max for FA, 10 minutes to 30 minutes max for duel mode with a respawn option toggle, 10-30 minutes for Open Mode with a respawn option toggle. Competitive Mode I'm sure you have that all worked out and I can't see any reason why it would need more than 5 minutes per round to resolve a quick and fast skillful fight. These are just ballpark off the top of my head of where I feel the game would benefit with little to no drawback to gameplay or the core of the game itself.

3) I've explained why it would be suitable for non-competitive players. Competitive players also would definitely like a more mild experience as opposed to always having that 5 minute limit hanging above their heads.

@Tylenol I honestly don't have the energy to keep responding to your own spheel of replies that aren't offering much but sarcasm. If you really want to claim no dev's are still here from that original decision then you're sorely mistaken. @MaceMadunusus and @GoodOl'Ben were two Devs who are still here who were involved in the decision and fought for it to be overturned for a period of time before changing their minds on it. They know why and so do I as I was involved in modifying the FA files and also involved in discussions via XFire/TS2 at the time about it.

And no one is being smug, mate. Plus I clearly said I haven't been around for nine years and I've only lurked every now and then over the years. I don't know who that person is nor do I care after how they cheekily responded to a legitimate suggestion.

 

[Defiant]

Five minutes is perfect for competitive matches, there you go. I'll submit to that. @Defiant What modes are considered Competitive now that the DevTeam is coding and introducing an actual Competitive mode?

What? This is news to me. I think you've been given the wrong idea by someone. No game-modes are any more non-competitive than any other, and the only new game-mode on the horizon is Conquest - but this is map specific within the existing Open and FA rulesets.

If Duel Mode and Open Mode are not considered competitive then why are they arbitrarily limited to five minutes? Five minutes is too short of a time for a duel to take place between two skilled opponents and find any satisfaction in the result of that fight. I've seen people claim the same in the other topics concerning time limits and duel mode

Duel mode has a default 15 minute round time limit - and I believe is slightly configurable to within certain values - I cant remember what they are off the top of my head.

As for Open Mode? There is nothing OPEN about a hardcoded time limit without the option to at least increase it to a maximum or remove it entirely.

I think you misunderstand what Open mode is. Open mode allows you to create your own build and assign your own points and play as a great number of different models, as opposed to FA mode which uses pre-defined model and skill combinations on a per-map basis. Open mode is not "Do what you want" - it is "Chose what MB Class, Model and MB Points you want to assign". Both are squad based 'Complete the objective' type game modes. There is no game mode other than duel where this isn't the case.

FA/Competitive can remain as they are and that's just my opinion as I do not feel that those two modes would benefit at all from increasing time limits, perhaps maybe a modest extension to FA to 15 minutes maximum?

Again - there is no "competitive" mode. I don't know where this idea that there is has come from. Both FA and Open are equally competitive and their are groups who take both modes equally competitively.

You are not compromising gameplay by allowing the game to play out for longer or giving the server owners and admins the ability to modify the cvars how they see fit. You are giving them freedom of choice and flexibility which is a positive benefit as a result of allowing them to modify settings that change the ruleset within reason.

You've just described basically how owning a server works. Server owners can modify any cvar they like as they see fit. There is no cvar for the round time in open or FA mode. As of yet you've not explained why the flexibility to change the round limit is a good thing - you saying it is so doesn't make it true. Maybe it will become clear as I work through the rest of your post.

1) Five Minutes is incredibly limiting and unrewarding for non-competitive gameplay where regular players and newbies are just trying to stretch their legs and get a feel for the game. Sure, death and having to wait will suck and detract from the experience but that's why in these NON-COMPETITIVE game-modes you can allow the servers to enable respawning after X period of time in defined zones within the teams spawn. For competitive play? It's perfect because it gives the sense of a time-crunch and limited time to allow for a victory, it enhances skill and gameplay for those players but not for the one's seeking a more mild/fun experience from your mod that no other game provides. (Don't even mention BF2 as that game is a disaster.)

What non-competitive game mode? You can make up arbitrary definitions. Are you asking for a non-competitive game mode to be added? Totally agree that it would suck if you had to wait 15 minutes to rejoin in the next round - this is a good thing for the 5 minute limit though. I don't follow the rest. You seem to be saying that allowing for longer rounds will introduce a sense of urgency which would on the surface seem to have no solid logical basis. If you give people more time their sense of urgency will decrease. Maybe I don't understand what you are trying to say.

2) A single value is limiting, a range is more preferred. How about we start with the already defined 5 minute default as the minimum? 5 minutes to 15 minutes max for FA, 10 minutes to 30 minutes max for duel mode with a respawn option toggle, 10-30 minutes for Open Mode with a respawn option toggle. Competitive Mode I'm sure you have that all worked out and I can't see any reason why it would need more than 5 minutes per round to resolve a quick and fast skillful fight. These are just ballpark off the top of my head of where I feel the game would benefit with little to no drawback to gameplay or the core of the game itself.

Ok duel mode already has a longer time limit and allows for respawns so im just going to stop talking about duel mode and assume that you arnt up to date on it and will be very happy when you realise what's available there. Again, the 5 minute time limit seems to be pretty good for either killing the other team or completing the objective - at which point a new round starts and everyone can play again. Increasing this to any higher value appears to serve no purpose other than preventing people playing.

3) I've explained why it would be suitable for non-competitive players. Competitive players also would definitely like a more mild experience as opposed to always having that 5 minute limit hanging above their heads.

You make it sound like we limit people to 5 minutes a day. You know after the round ends after that 5 minute maximum a new round starts right? Conquest will allow people to get back into the action sooner when its released, but right now all the maps and objectives are very reasonable within that 5 minute window. Honestly if you want the casual baseJKA experience than baseJKA is what you want to be playing - there's nothing wrong with wanting that but it's not the type of gameplay that MB2 is about.

MB2 is a squad based team objective game. There is no desire on our side to be anything but that for many reasons not least of which is that we only just have the manpower to cover the gamemodes we have now without having to worry about how we keep things balanced and fun in a totally orthogonal game mode. You arnt arguing that MB2 would be better with longer time limits, you are arguing that MB2 should be a different game - and that's not going to happen. If you have a valid reason to have longer round limits within the context of MB2 not some mystical non-existent "non-competitive" as you call it version of the game, then you have my undivided attention, otherwise it is as I said before, you might as well ask us to allow you to play the game as if its an RTS - that's just not the game.

 

[Kuras]

Link below..
Trello

Maybe you should read the Roadmap for your own development project. Specifically this Trello card.
If you can't understand that your mod or whatever this has devolved into is going to fail with such a hardline attitude, then it's already too late.

Best of luck to whatever is left of MB2, it's a shadow of what it used to be.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Sure, I'll point out a few for you. CSGO, ARK, Space Engineers, RUST, SQUAD, PUBG, ARMA 2/3, 7 Days to Die, DayZ, Life is Feudal: Your Own, Red Orchestra 1/2, Killing Floor 1/2, I could name more but you can see a pretty common trend here. These games are all wildly successful in their own ways and have a good following of players who still play it to this day that can number in the upper hundreds to the thousands. And I dare say they're doing quite well with their own custom options for server owners.

So a lot of this is false, or ignoring things just to fit your point of view. CSGO, PUBG, RUST, SQUAD, etc all have a set of rules for everything and they allow you to set values within a given range that they allow for their servers. Much like we do. We allow 3-5 minute rounds in case you want to have something shorter, we allow different point values up to 80, even including a progression system, we allow class limits, we allow removal of some classes, we allow people to make custom FAs, etc. These games all do the exact same thing and some what you're confusing some of the customization capabilities with mods, while also confusing the fact that some of these are open world SANDBOX or COOP games. Of the games even remotely close on this list, SQUAD's server side customizability options outside of modding is pathetically smaller than our own customization options and CSGOs when you are doing a non-modded server is relatively similar to our own.

Do not confuse mods with server side customization. Also remember that most of the things that go on in CSGO, Space Engineers, ARMA, etc are Mods of a game. Anything similar here would be mods of a mod of a game, which is a different thing all together because we already carved out our audience from the original game like other mods have done.

One of your own DevTeam members even went as far as to admit it to @SeV that the timelimit was imposed due to RPers.

Excuse me, but it hasn't been 15 years with a hardcoded timelimit. It's been more like 9. Before that? There was no complaint nor any need to hardcode the timelimit. This was a direct result of our RP server modifying the FA specific files for our server and eliminating the timelimit. The DevTeam leads were furious about that and didn't like it so you have a hardcoded timelimit. No real reason for it. Prove me wrong but I doubt you'll be able to because there is no other reason for why that change was introduced overnight years ago.

This is why you shouldn't really listen to people biased on the subject. They will twist and contort the words of developers, or completely leave out things they have said in the past simply to suit a view point.

1) You didn't need to modify any FA files to remove the time limit.
2) I was personally the first person to report it to other developers on IRC in RC1. I was also one of the ones to investigate how it was done and why it was happening finding out that it was partially my fault. I joined the team just after B19 and RC1 was my first release so I wasn't entirely aware of all the back end things that happened in previous builds.
3) We found out through that process that the hard coded limit broke and that we did indeed have one (not statements that we should have one). SEVERAL programmers at the time stated this, including leadership programmers. I personally had no knowledge to challenge (new non-programming dev) these statements but they definitely happened. And this says to me at least that there definitely was a hard coded limit prior to RC1.
4) There was only one developer (who was a programmer) who was very much against RP. He was not the one to fix the time limit.
5) Defiants statement towards reasons given by the rest of the developers present at the time is 100% accurate. If you actually listened to the developer who disliked RP you would actually see his reasons matched others as well and mainly just used RP as an example. RP was a very small section of the conversation, mainly as an example, it was definitely more along the lines of: we broke the thing, this is how we broke it, do we want to fix it, okay we fixed it. Most of the actual discussion had come after we had already fixed it, so that newer members like myself would understand the reasoning for it, and that is also when one person was a lot more vocal about the RP topic. Due to those explanations I switched sides on the topic because they make sense and I still agree with them. I also took my level design capabilities and joined the JKG team to work on RP-like maps in tandem with MB2 objective focused maps. I was not the only one to do that either. We recognized the need to keep two different audiences separate rather than having them clash.

@MaceMadunusus and @GoodOl'Ben were two Devs who are still here who were involved in the decision and fought for it to be overturned for a period of time before changing their minds on it.

Ben was around, but he was definitely not a part of the dev team at this time and definitely not involved in the decision.

Link below..
Trello

This is just an issue with wording and not being sure how to label things. Competitive "Mode" isn't really a mode, just an extra set of cvars to allow people to limit classes and things for PUGs, including the addition of things like voting people into spectator. Its just really a group of features that make having competitive matches easier/more streamlined than an actual mode of its own.

 

[Tylenol]

Maybe you should refer to his first response then before you point the finger

Chaos always posts ridiculous and over the top comments. Sometime ago he called someone who was ginger Satan. You don't seem to know much about the people here for someone as smug as you.

it. No real reason for it. Prove me wrong but I doubt you'll be able to because there is no other reason for why that change was introduced overnight years ago.

Yea mate, I'm sure we're all willing to go and prove you wrong on something no one can prove or disprove considering the fact that not all of the Devs back then are here and therefore can't really say much in this matter.

Actually, I've made fairly strong points and it's not because "other people do it" it's because other more successful and experienced developers have done the math and figured the formula for themselves and have come to the conclusion that forcing non-competitive players who play your game to abide by the same rules WITHOUT a choice is literally the worst thing you can do design wise. Prove me wrong as well.

5 minute time limits doesn't limit anyones enjoyment of the game, especially for new players. If anything, it's better for them since newer players are more vulnerable to just dying at the beginning of any round. The longer they have to wait for the next round, the more likely they are to become frustrated and stop playing.

B) Follow the established norm for the most successful games who have been in your very shoes and have already figured it all out.

Following the norms that other games do would just lose the charm of MB2.

 

[Defiant]

Link below..
Trello

Maybe you should read the Roadmap for your own development project. Specifically this Trello card.
If you can't understand that your mod or whatever this has devolved into is going to fail with such a hardline attitude, then it's already too late.

Best of luck to whatever is left of MB2, it's a shadow of what it used to be.

Try reading that card yourself. You've made some wild assumptions about what it means. I mean the mental gymnastics required to get from what is essentially a proper and portable implementation of the hardcore server to thinking we're gonna change the core mechanics of the rest of the game after 15 years because 'Competitive mode now' is simply staggering. Just wow. I'm amazed.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

Damn I feel bad for that guy

 

[Tylenol]

Damn I feel bad for that guy

Don't worry, he has ego to spare. His next post will probably be him being really smug about something else

 

[Faux]

If you can't understand that your mod or whatever this has devolved into is going to fail with such a hardline attitude, then it's already too late.

Best of luck to whatever is left of MB2, it's a shadow of what it used to be.

the prophecy was true..

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Excuse me, but it hasn't been 15 years with a hardcoded timelimit. It's been more like 9. Before that? There was no complaint nor any need to hardcode the timelimit. This was a direct result of our RP server modifying the FA specific files for our server and eliminating the timelimit. The DevTeam leads were furious about that and didn't like it so you have a hardcoded timelimit. No real reason for it. Prove me wrong but I doubt you'll be able to because there is no other reason for why that change was introduced overnight years ago.

Love the funk. There was no need to hardcode time limits (because it wasn't a problem, lolol) until you (kookey roleplayers) figured out how to get rid of the timelimit (Making it a problem, lolol). Congratulations, you're the reason why it was necessary to hardcode it.

You exploited or found a bug that you could abuse in a new release. One handed clap, que scene.

/End

And like good little devs, the devs fixed it. The reasons, why, precisely because they didn't want the timelmit removed by any random shithead. Same reasoning as to why mb2 isn't open source. Keep the gameplay consistent and the mod cohesive.

Was your server that retarded one with npcs wooks running around? Where people spent, well, far more than 5 minutes, chatting to set up a little scene for a stage production? Lulz.

Reality. Rping has been looked down in this community for the better part of the mods life by both devs and community. The reasons range from gameplay, desire and just sheer aversion. I believe Acidus actively hated you lot.
And the history of rping in mb2 is a sad one, indeed. Most rp servers were just a breeding ground for smug, little shits to lord it over others.
Didn't bow before requesting a duel? Kick.
Use the wrong weapon? Kick.
Try to play the game? Kick.
Say the server was laggy? Ban.
Beat a master, when you're an apprentice? Swear vengeance and start wrist-cutting.


Pointless nonsense = Rping in a game built for action whose premise is to kill and/or win.

Chaos always posts ridiculous and over the top comments. Sometime ago he called someone who was ginger Satan. You don't seem to know much about the people here for someone as smug as you.

Calling a cross-dressing ginger from one of those Norway countries, Satan, isn't over the top. It's rather tame. They're messed up, up there.

Also, Lies and Slander. Also, you have a point. Doesn't seem to know much about the community. The fair-weather player. Sure talks a lot of shit. About games I uninstalled. Still have mb lol.

The point of the mod is to battle. Theater productions at this point and time - serve nothing other than the ego of desperately small-minded individuals. It's the gameplay that brings people back, for good or ill.

Not people playing pretend, spamming chat, or god forbid, some voice chat.

And we already have a healthy rp community, a strain you might say, that's been around since day 1. I speak of course, of the shitposters and trolls. Vile bastards but they get their kicks.

They're a poison that must be eliminated. I swear, I shall strive to fight for the light until this darkness is squelched. SQUELCHED!

 

[Goliath-A.I.]

Chaos always posts ridiculous and over the top comments.

Lies and Slander.

No no, he has a point there. If there's anything I can rely on you to do, it is to make some over the top comment
that makes it sound like you're on cocaine.

At least be self-aware about it.

Spoiler

We're going to have an intervention for you in the near future.

Spoiler

I may or may not kill you at said intervention.

 

[Lindsey]

Most rp servers were just a breeding ground for smug, little shits to lord it over others.
Didn't bow before requesting a duel? Kick.
Use the wrong weapon? Kick.
Try to play the game? Kick.
Say the server was laggy? Ban.

These reasons are why the base game is dead, I had these exact interactions when I was trying to join a server and JUST PLAY. Then I discovered MB2 and the wonders of short concise rounds XD

 

[noel]

The mb2 dev's anti-RP attitude is literally unexplainable.

i havent read all this thread but it would be GOOD for MB2 to do this. You NEED longer round timers to RP because you can't get into something if every 5 minutes your character resets position, you get knocked out of the game for 15 seconds etc.

You also need a distance based text chat, which @Tempest has already coded AFAIK.

I tried campaigning for these changes myself a long time ago and was shut down, hopefully the devs will change their mind and look at games like San Andreas (Multiplayer), Garry's Mod, Arma 2/3 etc which are all surviving with good playercounts BECAUSE of RP gamemodes mainly.

 

[Lindsey]

The mb2 dev's anti-RP attitude is literally unexplainable.

i havent read all this thread but it would be GOOD for MB2 to do this. You NEED longer round timers to RP because you can't get into something if every 5 minutes your character resets position, you get knocked out of the game for 15 seconds etc.

*looks at previous reply above* *looks at current reply*

 

[2cwldys]

*looks at previous reply above* *looks at current reply*

Quite un-necessary if I say so myself Lindsey, as it is actually a swayed topic - players preference may not only be casual, but many show attention towards the roleplaying 'feel' or 'potential' of the mod.

Roleplay on MBII is something I have wanted for years, and personally by 2-3 devs I was stated they are not going to do it; and they they really need to focus on matters at hand such as UI, features, gamemodes, (saber patch we've been arguing for over years) and etc. I'd say that roleplaying is the minority and I'm a part of it, but the best thing to do is wait until things get better with actual gameplay.. if we get there even, is the burning question.

AFAIK for additional context for this topic, people have quit MBII because of the dev's lack of interest in roleplay, I met a person (unexpectingly) from another game named Asheron's Call, and his name was Jedi Master Ailan (Ailan on Asheron's Call) from the 'Defenders of Peace' roleplay group and they all (from what he said) .. "quit playing cause of dev's lack of interest for roleplayers" .. he hasn't touched this mod in years from what I've been told.

The 'Defenders of Peace' group always had roleplay where they'd go off (within the 2-5 minute time limit) to other maps and actually roleplay as a council, and they pleaded so much for changes to assist them in what they enjoy from the mod.

This video was from 2006, and apparently was a concern then.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

*looks at previous reply above* *looks at current reply*

Wilful blindness is necessary when playing pretend.

See, Goliath is an example of what a genuine roleplayer should be. Pick a role/a character & stick with it while actually playing the damn game.
I've never understood all these scripted attempts at Shakespearean tragedy where people stand around and chat prepping the scene more than actually just roleplaying. Or all those garbage rules. It's called improv, learn it!

Translation for the simple-minded = You mofos suck at rp and that's yet another reason you deserve NOTHING!

No no, he has a point there. If there's anything I can rely on you to do, it is to make some over the top comment
that makes it sound like you're on cocaine.

At least be self-aware about it.

Spoiler

We're going to have an intervention for you in the near future.

Spoiler

I may or may not kill you at said intervention.

You reek of desperation and acid.
And not the good kind of acid. The bad kind.

 

[2cwldys]

Translation for the simple-minded = You mofos suck at rp and that's yet another reason you deserve NOTHING!

How can we suck at roleplay - if the mod, and it's developers doesn't fully endorse, nor word of support it for many years? (i.e, how would we roleplay at all?!)
Quite brash, quite unnecessary, and a way to assume people's talent.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Why do you need someone's support or endorsement to play the role that you wish to portray?

5 minutes isn't enough? Says who? 5 minutes is an opportunity to recreate a new scene, a new version, a new story in a new derivation, you simpering peon. You have neither the talent or the vision to act. You have failed to grasp such a simple realization.

You expose this all as a ploy as a power grab to play in a sandbox of your choosing where you force the audience to clap.
And that sir, is not theater. That is not play. That, is obscenity.

You are a crime against fiction.

 

[2cwldys]

Why do you need someone's support or endorsement to play the role that you wish to portray?

5 minutes isn't enough? Says who? 5 minutes is an opportunity to recreate a new scene, a new version, a new story in a new derivation, you simpering peon. You have neither the talent or the vision to act. You have failed to grasp such a simple realization.

You expose this all as a ploy as a power grab to play in a sandbox of your choosing where you force the audience to clap.
And that sir, is not theater. That is not play. That, is obscenity.

You are a crime against fiction.

You enjoy a good, although not required .. rant..

It is pretty annoying to try to achieve what you want to do - while the round resets every five minutes; especially at any climax of what you are attempting to roleplay.

By that point everyone just loses interest, or are through with being inconvenienced. Apologies if it offended you that.. if you can type up a storm in 180 WPM or construct a story, or go off other's text-based reactions, and perform combat in under five minutes. Not everyone can do that, let alone aspire to.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

It's not my fault(or her fault) if your control is piss-poor and it all tends to blow up in your face prematurely before everyone is satisfied.

t(-_-)t