The Great Debate (Timelimit)

[Kuras]

Hello,

Many of you probably don't recognize my name nor care to since it has been approximately 9 years since I've come to these forums, but I was a part of the one of the only successful RP servers to ever have the honor of showing up on MB2's server list. I was part of this server's administration team and overall responsible for plot direction for one side of the force. It was definitely one of the highlights of roleplaying within the JKA community and I don't find any shame in admitting it, much to the DevTeam's disgust back in 2009 when they attempted to silence and quietly dispose of RPers for no actual reason.

As I recall, there was no serious fragmentation of the player community 9 years ago when we opened our doors and started our fledgling little RP community, using Xfire and the forums here to promote it and keep in touch. We had a total of around 20 or so active members who would come on and enjoy RPing between their sessions of FA and after a long day of work or school. I forget who the person responsible for setting this server up was but he was a close friend of mine back then and we generally all worked together on modifying the FA files to create new and interesting characters with unique force abilities and perks. This all took place within ONE server over a course of a few months at best.

I've been reading up on the plethora of topics and posts basically begging the DevTeam for a reintroduction or at least an opportunity to customize our own server settings and I would like to preface any further discussion by saying that I am not here to argue, but merely debate the reasoning behind NOT allowing Community Servers (i.e. Unofficial) to set their own settings. Afterall, we still have Official Servers like we did years ago, don't we?

Our RP server nearly a decade ago did nothing to hurt the overall playerbase of MB2 at the time, nor did it do anything to tarnish the image of MB2. Sure, as with ANY type of game-mode you will attract the unwanted characters but we swiftly banned them on our server. I would know because I was responsible for handing out 7 bans to absolutely shitters who had nothing to offer but chaos and disrespect to the core values of what we were trying to establish, an actual RP community with fun and kind people. I remember the conversation the Owner and I had on Teamspeak 2 when the hammer came down on us and why it was happening and I can absolutely confirm that it was not due to any major reason nor any gamebreaking reason, it was because of who we were and what we enjoyed, Roleplay. The Leads and the Founder of MB2 at the time found RP to be revolting to them because of their own personal reasons but we had no idea how our isolated and fairly well-run server could be such an annoyance, we weren't harming anyone!

We begged for a while and it became pretty obvious to us there was a huge bias against our type of gamer within the MB2 Dev-Team and a lot of our membership lost hope, left back to JKA or for RPMod, which for the latter was admittedly much more exclusive and difficult to get into. The only people on the DevTeam AT THE TIME who supported us were @MaceMadunusus and @GoodOl'Ben . So it really pains me to see that after all these years the two most IN SUPPORT vocally and development wise are now among the few within the DevTeam who are holding back a good change that would bring back players.

With all of this being said, it's been nearly a decade. I don't RP as much as I used to anymore as I've moved on from that but what I do enjoy is solid gameplay and flexibility of choice. I understand this is YOUR game and your development... but think of this way. I'll use this example since Mace loves to quote and/or mention what a good development team would do... out of all the competitive games I've played NOT ONE that is majorly successful and still alive to this day forces you to play a FULL ROUND within 5 minutes. Nor does it FORCE you to only have one choice, it gives you FLEXIBILITY.

From what I've read it seems to be a "difficult" task to remove the arbitrary timelimit that YOU imposed on us... but do you ever stop to ask why you're still bleeding players? Back in 2008/9 when I played MB2 had a regular playerbase of at least 150+ or more on a daily. Plus with unique players coming to play you would have a flowing playerbase that kept coming in and out. That's great for growth because you're still attracting new faces and they in turn will spread the word and say how awesome your game/mod is. But now? I find it hard to believe that your metrics don't track unique visitors to the game itself, that's a laughable statement at best.

You as the Devs know exactly how many new players are trying out your official servers and the mod itself and I dare to say it's embarrassing. I really want MB2 to succeed and shit for a time I even wanted MB3 to actually come to life, sadly that didn't pan out. All that I've seen from lurking in every 3/4 years is complaints and more players leaving, along with the same recurring topics. RP/Timelimits, freedom of choice and flexible server settings. Customization Options for SERVERS, your most important part of the whole she-bang.

It's been nearly ten years, isn't it time to try something new?

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Mb2 to succeed?

Game game out in 2003. It's 2018.
The game itself was mediocre. The mod is the diamond that came out of that sad, sack of coal.

When at last the devs succumb to making a competitive game RP friendly - that is the official last gasp of this mod.
You are the death knell, that final gong of complete and irreparable damage, the ultimate despair. You...are Satan!

Roleplayers in 3rd person action/shooters = should be killed with fire.

Now, that's just my opinion. No offense. t(-_-)t

 

[Kuras]

Mb2 to succeed?

Game game out in 2003. It's 2018.
The game itself was mediocre. The mod is the diamond that came out of that sad, sack of coal.

When at last the devs succumb to making a competitive game RP friendly - that is the official last gasp of this mod.
You are the death knell, that final gong of complete and irreparable damage, the ultimate despair. You...are Satan!

Roleplayers in 3rd person action/shooters = should be killed with fire.

Now, that's just my opinion. No offense. t(-_-)t

Disregarding all of your pointless nonsense you somehow drooled out of your brain... let's focus on the major point you offer as a challenge to my OP.

You seem to feel that "competitive games" can't have a little customization to their options/settings for UNOFFICIAL servers. THIS my friend is the death knell of any development and any game. When you limit and force people to one set of rules and one option only it will drive EVERYONE away except for the core fanbase, which is pretty much a fraction of what it used to be.. If you bothered to read anything I posted you would know MB2 was far more popular before... and MB2 was never more popular on average than BaseJKA when it had it's heyday.

BaseJKA had a regular population of close to 400-500 when I played in 2009. When I came back to play JKA and check it out in 2013 it had a population of 200 max. Still far more than MB2 had in it's prime I believe. Sadly now Base is pretty much a graveyard but that's to be expected from a game that hasn't been worked on for YEARS.

Besides! We have OFFICIAL SERVERS that can and ALWAYS will adhere to the official ruleset! Shit for all I care you can do whatever you want with your own official ruleset but allow COMMUNITY servers to choose their own settings and allow them have freedom of choice and flexibility in mind when establishing a new server. The biggest turn off to any server owner is finding out they have literally little choice to one of the most crucial parts of any round based game, TIME. Let alone any of the other options we can't touch or work with because the DevTeam doesn't want us to.

No disrespect to the game itself either but MB2 is hardly competitive. It's faking competitiveness to throw the appearance of a competitive game but I don't see the crowds of clamoring fans standing by to watch two teams compete and win any sort of real meaningful victory. MB2 is what it is, it's in the name. MOVIE BATTLES. The name itself suggests and always has suggested that this modification to a wildly popular sequel to JKO was created to give authentic battles that correlated to the movies themselves. Not for competitive play.

No offense intended

 

[Defiant]

I've been reading up on the plethora of topics and posts basically begging the DevTeam for a reintroduction or at least an opportunity to customize our own server settings and I would like to preface any further discussion by saying that I am not here to argue, but merely debate the reasoning behind NOT allowing Community Servers (i.e. Unofficial) to set their own settings. Afterall, we still have Official Servers like we did years ago, don't we?

All servers are customisable in exactly the same ways. The Official servers do not have options that other servers do not. There are many customisation options and very few are used. For instance, I am not aware of any servers that currently make use of the ability to turn individual classes off, or make players earn their class points. There are many things that are not customisable - and this isn't out of the ordinary - I cant think of a single game that allows you to modify the core game rules - If you are aware of one that does, do let me know I would be interested to see how it works.

Our RP server nearly a decade ago did nothing to hurt the overall playerbase of MB2 at the time, nor did it do anything to tarnish the image of MB2. Sure, as with ANY type of game-mode you will attract the unwanted characters but we swiftly banned them on our server. I would know because I was responsible for handing out 7 bans to absolutely shitters who had nothing to offer but chaos and disrespect to the core values of what we were trying to establish, an actual RP community with fun and kind people. I remember the conversation the Owner and I had on Teamspeak 2 when the hammer came down on us and why it was happening and I can absolutely confirm that it was not due to any major reason nor any gamebreaking reason, it was because of who we were and what we enjoyed, Roleplay. The Leads and the Founder of MB2 at the time found RP to be revolting to them because of their own personal reasons but we had no idea how our isolated and fairly well-run server could be such an annoyance, we weren't harming anyone!

I cant speak to what individual people thought, but I was on the team around that time and I don't remember anything specifically negative being said about role players, but I could be mistaken. As you have pointed out, you banned 7 people who presumably were only trying to play the game. That's 7 people who saw a populated MB2 server, joined it, tried to play the game they had joined and got banned for not playing the way you wanted them to play. That's a real problem, that's potentially 7 people who have decided that every server is like that and who wont try another server. However, simply no listing your server on the master list would have been enough to address this.

We begged for a while and it became pretty obvious to us there was a huge bias against our type of gamer within the MB2 Dev-Team and a lot of our membership lost hope, left back to JKA or for RPMod, which for the latter was admittedly much more exclusive and difficult to get into. The only people on the DevTeam AT THE TIME who supported us were @MaceMadunusus and @GoodOl'Ben . So it really pains me to see that after all these years the two most IN SUPPORT vocally and development wise are now among the few within the DevTeam who are holding back a good change that would bring back players.

As I said I was around at the time and I know for a fact that the problem wasn't bias against role players, it was that you were trying to force the game to be something that it wasn't designed to be and seemed to think that there was some sort of obligation on us to spend our limited time and resources to cater for something the game wasn't designed to be. The core design of the game has not changed.

With all of this being said, it's been nearly a decade. I don't RP as much as I used to anymore as I've moved on from that but what I do enjoy is solid gameplay and flexibility of choice. I understand this is YOUR game and your development... but think of this way. I'll use this example since Mace loves to quote and/or mention what a good development team would do... out of all the competitive games I've played NOT ONE that is majorly successful and still alive to this day forces you to play a FULL ROUND within 5 minutes. Nor does it FORCE you to only have one choice, it gives you FLEXIBILITY.

The 5 minute time limit is there for a reason. It is almost always long enough to complete a round, and the vast majority of time that it isn't it is because someone is time wasting. No one likes sitting around waiting for a round to end so they can get back in, I'd rather wait 2 minutes than 18 minutes because either two players cant find each other or because one player deliberately runs. Its difficult to envisage a more sensible value within the confines of the gameplay concept. Sure we could reduce it to 4 minutes or bump it to 6 minutes but it feels like if its not resolved after 5 minutes, an extra minute wont help a round to completion - it'll just delay everyone getting into the next round.

From what I've read it seems to be a "difficult" task to remove the arbitrary timelimit that YOU imposed on us... but do you ever stop to ask why you're still bleeding players? Back in 2008/9 when I played MB2 had a regular playerbase of at least 150+ or more on a daily. Plus with unique players coming to play you would have a flowing playerbase that kept coming in and out. That's great for growth because you're still attracting new faces and they in turn will spread the word and say how awesome your game/mod is. But now? I find it hard to believe that your metrics don't track unique visitors to the game itself, that's a laughable statement at best.

We havnt got metrics for that and never have had. Most of it is anecdotal. For instance the highest concurrent players we know for sure we've had was around the release of Episode 8 and was about 480 players + Whoever was on the tR servers that are blacklisted from jacklul. We've done some short term internal analysis recently after having a couple of ideas of how we could track it - People who hit the master server with a valid request and people who load launcher. Both estimates put our unique players well into the thousands of players per week with an upper limit into the tens of thousands over a period of about 3 months. Without any historical context to compare to obviously it is all anecdotal and impossible to do any sort of trending.

You as the Devs know exactly how many new players are trying out your official servers and the mod itself and I dare to say it's embarrassing. I really want MB2 to succeed and shit for a time I even wanted MB3 to actually come to life, sadly that didn't pan out. All that I've seen from lurking in every 3/4 years is complaints and more players leaving, along with the same recurring topics. RP/Timelimits, freedom of choice and flexible server settings. Customization Options for SERVERS, your most important part of the whole she-bang.

It's been nearly ten years, isn't it time to try something new?

We don't have any statistics regarding new players or players leaving, its not likely that we will have in the short to medium term. Thing to remember is the people busy playing arnt on the forums complaining. I havnt personally seen anyone request any additional server customisation options, one person did a binary hack to try and work round it, but that's about it. As I said the problem is that the 5 minute time limit is about the only sensible value there is. If you think that there are other sensible values for it then by all means write a post explaining what you think it should be and why you think it is suitable, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I cant imagine how you could argue that 5 minutes isn't enough time for one team to defeat another to either the point that one team is completely eliminated or that the objective can be completed. If on the other hand your argument is that there should be an unlimited option because you want to do game play that is not the squad objective nature of MB2 then your argument is as uninteresting to me as it is for you to argue that there should be an option in MB2 to have a top down view and someone should be able to control an entire team RTS style. We are a 1st/3rd person squad objective game, nothing more, nothing less - i'll grant you there is a duel mode bolted on the side, but that is more as a courtesy than anything else, that exact game mode could almost be achieved with cvars alone.

 

[Kuras]

All servers are customisable in exactly the same ways. The Official servers do not have options that other servers do not. There are many customisation options and very few are used. For instance, I am not aware of any servers that currently make use of the ability to turn individual classes off, or make players earn their class points. There are many things that are not customisable - and this isn't out of the ordinary - I cant think of a single game that allows you to modify the core game rules - If you are aware of one that does, do let me know I would be interested to see how it works.

Sure, I'll point out a few for you. CSGO, ARK, Space Engineers, RUST, SQUAD, PUBG, ARMA 2/3, 7 Days to Die, DayZ, Life is Feudal: Your Own, Red Orchestra 1/2, Killing Floor 1/2, I could name more but you can see a pretty common trend here. These games are all wildly successful in their own ways and have a good following of players who still play it to this day that can number in the upper hundreds to the thousands. And I dare say they're doing quite well with their own custom options for server owners.

I cant speak to what individual people thought, but I was on the team around that time and I don't remember anything specifically negative being said about role players, but I could be mistaken. As you have pointed out, you banned 7 people who presumably were only trying to play the game. That's 7 people who saw a populated MB2 server, joined it, tried to play the game they had joined and got banned for not playing the way you wanted them to play. That's a real problem, that's potentially 7 people who have decided that every server is like that and who wont try another server. However, simply no listing your server on the master list would have been enough to address this.

You assumed that these seven players were banned for not playing the game how it was intended. The server had a MOTD and it was extremely obvious the server was an RP server. It's not like some random scrolled down the already full servers and saw the blaringly obvious server name and decided to join and expected something different.

I banned 7 people for breaking global rules, general rules that ALL people should follow. I.E. Don't be a shitter, don't be a troll, don't abuse or harass other members of the server. These are pretty common and ethically solid rules. Are you saying I was wrong in banning them after trying to reason with them? I hope you aren't saying that because that would be a big red flag as to what the DevTeam feels is okay and isn't.

As I said I was around at the time and I know for a fact that the problem wasn't bias against role players, it was that you were trying to force the game to be something that it wasn't designed to be and seemed to think that there was some sort of obligation on us to spend our limited time and resources to cater for something the game wasn't designed to be. The core design of the game has not changed.

We weren't forcing the game to be anything other than in our own backyard. And again, the server had a MOTD and it was inherently obvious it was an RP server. The game didn't suffer for it nor did we have to do anything extra to make it work? It was just the timelimit wasn't hardcoded nor was it ever INTENDED to be hardcoded. It was hardcoded as a result of our experiment with an RP server on your master list. The DevTeam at the time did not like it nor did they want it and it's been stated numerous times in other topics concerning RP/Timelimits post the change. You can peruse your own forums using your search function to find ample evidence. One of your own DevTeam members even went as far as to admit it to @SeV that the timelimit was imposed due to RPers.

The 5 minute time limit is there for a reason. It is almost always long enough to complete a round, and the vast majority of time that it isn't it is because someone is time wasting. No one likes sitting around waiting for a round to end so they can get back in, I'd rather wait 2 minutes than 18 minutes because either two players cant find each other or because one player deliberately runs. Its difficult to envisage a more sensible value within the confines of the gameplay concept. Sure we could reduce it to 4 minutes or bump it to 6 minutes but it feels like if its not resolved after 5 minutes, an extra minute wont help a round to completion - it'll just delay everyone getting into the next round.

If your game is built to be an arcade then yes, five minutes is more than enough time. But this is the beauty of having multiple gamemodes and flexibility, options, and freedom of choice. You can setup your own combo of these wonderous settings you as the Dev have provided us and allow us to run it how we see fit. As I stated, you still have OFFICIAL SERVERS that are popular and run your ruleset so you can be Dictator in your own backyard like you want.

What other reasons do you have to share? I don't see a good one yet as to why we can't just remove the arbitrary and stupid timelimit.

P.S. In BaseJKA we had the option to votekick players who took too long or to end the round if we wanted. So I can't for the life of me fathom why you would impose such a brief timelimit on rounds that could literally be much more fun if you just doubled the time or gave us the option to customize it ourselves.

 

[Tylenol]

>Now, that's just my opinion. No offense.
>Disregarding all of your pointless nonsense you somehow drooled out of your brain...

much to the DevTeam's disgust back in 2009 when they attempted to silence and quietly dispose of RPers for no actual reason.

Rise Up Gamers

MB2 is hardly competitive

Yea, it's not like there's dozens of pages of duelling guides and tutorials. It's not as if there's been actual tournaments organised for real money. This is a very non-competive game and can be casually enjoyed by any Star Wars fan...

The name itself suggests and always has suggested that this modification to a wildly popular sequel to JKO was created to give authentic battles that correlated to the movies themselves. Not for competitive play.

I think this reaffirms what Defaint mentioned about you shaping not your game into your own design.
The name of the game is irrelevant, only the gameplay is. MB2 is based on mechanics that requires players to really delve in and understand what they're doing and on top of that putting them into practice. It's a game that requires alot from people and so, gives players a great sense of satisfaction in accomplishing impressive feats of winning impossible fights. It's understandable if this isn't your sort of game but in that same regard, roleplaying isn't the majority of players sort of thing as well and the people who I have known to enjoy it don't play MB2 for long.

All your other issues would be resolved if you just moved with your friends to JKA. Youd have a more stable gameplay experience and you would have more customisation to your server. Unless of course, you don't want to pay for servers and that's your whole point of writing this thread.

out of all the competitive games I've played NOT ONE that is majorly successful and still alive to this day forces you to play a FULL ROUND within 5 minutes. Nor does it FORCE you to only have one choice, it gives you FLEXIBILITY.

You mean games like Team Fortress 2 where a major problem with the gameplay is the occasions where teams just ending steam rolling the opposition for ridiculous amounts of time due to the constantly extending timer? Limited lives and 5 minute timers are something that keep the pace of the game up but still raises the stakes up for people.

These games are all wildly successful in their own ways and have a good following of players who still play it to this day that can number in the upper hundreds to the thousands. And I dare say they're doing quite well with their own custom options for server owners.

MB2 doesn't have a large enough playerbase to dare open up custom server of the likes of TF2 Minecraft plaza or JailBreak. If you want to chill and chat that's fine but there's really other places to do it, and it's depressing opening a server browser for a game and seeing custom servers full and the official ones bekng empty

 

[Kuras]

Yea, it's not like there's dozens of pages of duelling guides and tutorials. It's not as if there's been actual tournaments organised for real money. This is a very non-competive game and can be casually enjoyed by any Star Wars fan...

I think this reaffirms what Defaint mentioned about you shaping not your game into your own design.
The name of the game is irrelevant, only the gameplay is. MB2 is based on mechanics that requires players to really delve in and understand what they're doing and on top of that putting them into practice. It's a game that requires alot from people and so, gives players a great sense of satisfaction in accomplishing impressive feats of winning impossible fights. It's understandable if this isn't your sort of game but in that same regard, roleplaying isn't the majority of players sort of thing as well and the people who I have known to enjoy it don't play MB2 for long.

All your other issues would be resolved if you just moved with your friends to JKA. Youd have a more stable gameplay experience and you would have more customisation to your server. Unless of course, you don't want to pay for servers and that's your whole point of writing this thread.

I think you misunderstand the point of this topic. The point here is not to clamor for RP or for a casual experience, it's obvious enough that the game is not a casual experience but it's definitely not a competitive one either. Sure there's tournaments and more but is the game competitive enough in the sphere of FIVE minutes? No. The action literally comes and goes in the blink of an eye. Not even the most competitive of games reduce you to FIVE simple meaningless minutes. That, buddy, is called a casual experience.

The point here is to return to roots and what actually brought people to this mod/game in the first place and make battles more meaningful by giving us more time to make them so.

Nobody here want's a free server, I could care less about the rest of what you stated here as it seems to veer off course of an educated discussion and simply seems to echo the same false logic.

You mean games like Team Fortress 2 where a major problem with the gameplay is the occasions where teams just ending steam rolling the opposition for ridiculous amounts of time due to the constantly extending timer? Limited lives and 5 minute timers are something that keep the pace of the game up but still raises the stakes up for people.

MB2 doesn't have a large enough playerbase to dare open up custom server of the likes of TF2 Minecraft plaza or JailBreak. If you want to chill and chat that's fine but there's really other places to do it, and it's depressing opening a server browser for a game and seeing custom servers full and the official ones bekng empty

Team Fortress 2 is a bad example for you to use. Sure that may happen in TF2 but does TF2 have 90 concurrent users playing? No, it has 45k users who still play that ol' game to this very day. If it was such a major issue surely you'd see the Devs make a decision to change that and impose a permanent, hardcoded timelimit right? Wrong.

MB2 COULD have the playerbase to support such a decision if certain individuals would stop being stubborn to a positive and healthy development choice. What's with the fear of opening up customization to server owners so they can modify time and more? The worst that could happen is you have servers that are empty because they suck, ruleset wise, and the Official ones would be brimming with players if this 5 minute "RULE", as they put it, was really that important to players.

MB2 was doing just fine before the hardcoded timelimit and after? Speaks for itself.

 

[Tylenol]

is the game competitive enough in the sphere of FIVE minutes?

Yes. Yes, it is.
Or would you prefer damage numbers to be lower, with health packs that regenerate your health and mechanics that anyone can understand? Because that is an actual casual experience

The action literally comes and goes in the blink of an eye.

I'm assuming you've seen Counter Strike gameplay right? Funny how the action in that game also goes at the blink of an eye, and it also has a default 5 minute time limit.

MB2 COULD have the playerbase to support such a decision if certain individuals would stop being stubborn to a positive and healthy development choice.

Are you going to self-assign your arguments good qualities now? Because as egotistical this will sound, your "positive and healthy" design idea is just awful. Open mode has been modelled since it's inception and a change in its time limit is something that is completely irrelevant. Your suggestion is only coming from your own wants to roleplay.

What's with the fear of opening up customization to server owners so they can modify time and more?

There's already been a discussion about server side modifications on the forums before, but clearly no one really cared enough about the subject since the only arguements I got from my post there was 2 half assed replies and 1 shitpost.

Team Fortress 2 is a bad example for you to use. Sure that may happen in TF2 but does TF2 have 90 concurrent users playing? No, it has 45k users who still play that ol' game to this very day

Yea, it's not like the company who made that game released it on their own platform for selling games and were already a big thriving business with an big enough budget for marketing and advertising. MB2 would probably have the same success as TF2 if it had the same amount of money behind.

 

[Kuras]

Yes. Yes, it is.
Or would you prefer damage numbers to be lower, with health packs that regenerate your health and mechanics that anyone can understand? Because that is an actual casual experience

I'm assuming you've seen Counter Strike gameplay right? Funny how the action in that game also goes at the blink of an eye, and it also has a default 5 minute time limit.

Yes, I have and rounds typically playout within 5 minutes for this game. You're right, but you seem to forget that each competitive match here is 16 rounds long and there are usually 3 maps to play on during a real tournament. This game was perfected this way over years of messing with the settings and ruleset for their Official servers but their COMMUNITY servers are open and modifiable and even free to choose their own settings.

Make NO mistake... I'm not trying to change the official ruleset. I am here to ask for customization for server owners so they can do as they please on their own community/unofficial servers, within reason. Right now it's just one choice, that's not really a good decision design wise.

Are you going to self-assign your arguments good qualities now? Because as egotistical this will sound, your "positive and healthy" design idea is just awful. Open mode has been modelled since it's inception and a change in its time limit is something that is completely irrelevant. Your suggestion is only coming from your own wants to roleplay.

I don't see how you can deduce that I "just want to roleplay" when I've explicity stated that I don't RP anymore nor am I here for that? Did you read the whole OP or any of my corresponding replies to you? No, you didn't. I actually did read your responses so at least show some respect before you mouth off more nonsensical drool.

Now, moving on to the more mature part of your post...

There's already been a discussion about server side modifications on the forums before, but clearly no one really cared enough about the subject since the only arguements I got from my post there was 2 half assed replies and 1 shitpost.

Where is this post? For research purposes to see if this post was even worth looking at in the first place. You or whoever posted this probably worded their argument very wrong or didn't offer anything different.

Yea, it's not like the company who made that game released it on their own platform for selling games and were already a big thriving business with an big enough budget for marketing and advertising. MB2 would probably have the same success as TF2 if it had the same amount of money behind.

You brought up TF2, not me. I told you it was a bad example for you.

So again, where is the harm in allowing UNOFFICIAL servers the freedom of choice?

 

[Tylenol]

I don't RP as much as I used to

I don't see how you can deduce that I "just want to roleplay" when I've explicity stated that I don't RP anymore n

2 completely different statements

Did you read the whole OP or any of my corresponding replies to you?

You think I'd write paragraphs to your post and then half-ass reading everything you wrote? You think surprisingly low of me then.

Where is this post? For research purposes to see if this post was even worth looking at in the first place. You or whoever posted this probably worded their argument very wrong or didn't offer anything different.

So you haven't read a word of something but you're already forming your opinions on it. Bit silly really.

You brought up TF2, not me. I told you it was a bad example for you.

I bought up TF2 because you bought up other games with similar gameplay who seemed be better off, so I showed how TF2 suffers because if its constantly extending time limit.

before you mouth off more nonsensical drool.

You seem to be quite fixated with drool. That's all, I just find it really wierd 0.o

 

[Kuras]

2 completely different statements

Again, I don't see how these are completely different? Did I ever state I was here to RP again or bring down the rains and send thunderbolts from my ass at you? No. I have stated time and again in this topic why I am bringing this up. This is a gameplay and development discussion not an RP or a want for RP but if you want to beat on RPers then be my guest... in a different topic.

Thanks

DROOL

Literally you've added nothing meaningful to this conversation past what I've already discussed with you and this IS a debate about timelimit afterall, as it says in the topic title. So if you are not here to offer anything meaningful please don't speak at all.

Anyways, moving on. I feel as if a good common ground could literally be reached by just allowing Community Servers the ability to customize their own ruleset. You can impose an artificial ceiling on this if it worries you so much that fringe RPers would ever return, I highly doubt that as it's been years since RP was a thing on MB2. The only concern you should have now is separating competitive rules from non-competitive gamemodes. I.E. Duel Mode and the others now that the Roadmap has a clear outline for a real and true competitive mode.

 

[PuNk]

The only time I see official servers having any pop is when TIN and ad.ppl are doing a pug on Official Hardcore. Aside from that they are dead, rarely who plays on them. I don't know why is that, maybe clan servers are just more fancy and attractive or Officials lack admins these days.

Anyway, I'm generally not a RPer, but with a few people that I know are kinda into it I could very easily do light RPing on duel mode or FA mode as is. 15 minutes timer on duel mode and while you are limited to jedi/sith models you can pretty much do it on any map, even the ones designed for Open mode. Or you can just play FA and VC with friends pretending you're Vader slashing through a bunch of rebs and heavily breathing into voice chat to make it look even more authentic. If you want freedom to roam, chill, talk, just do it on duel mode or play base JA. What we have of that in MB2 right now is just enough to satisfy a small Star Wars nerd RPer in me that's been in there since I was a child waving a wood stick I found next to my building pretending it was a glowstick. Anything more than that and you will have a bunch of servers each with different set of rules, scripts, cvars and what not and all of them will be fighting for pops of 5-10 people tops. The dev team would have little to no reason to actively continue to support the mod with new patches for balancing and new content when no one will be playing the game under their rules anyway anymore and the core idea behind the mod would have been lost and forgotten in time, like tears in rain kind of shit.

Maybe this would have worked back when the mod was more popular and hundreds and hundreds of players were playing on a daily basis, but now after 15 years when you have 100 players at best playing in the evenings it's really all about just making sure you balance the classes, mechanics and release new maps/modes to keep the pop and attract some new players. I think it's a bit too late to try and fundamentally change what this mod is about. Too little and about 15 years too late. Attempt to change now will only divide what little of a community we have left.

 

[Kuras]

The only time I see official servers having any pop is when TIN and ad.ppl are doing a pug on Official Hardcore. Aside from that they are dead, rarely who plays on them. I don't know why is that, maybe clan servers are just more fancy and attractive or Officials lack admins these days.

Anyway, I'm generally not a RPer, but with a few people that I know are kinda into it I could very easily do light RPing on duel mode or FA mode as is. 15 minutes timer on duel mode and while you are limited to jedi/sith models you can pretty much do it on any map, even the ones designed for Open mode. Or you can just play FA and VC with friends pretending you're Vader slashing through a bunch of rebs and heavily breathing into voice chat to make it look even more authentic. If you want freedom to roam, chill, talk, just do it on duel mode or play base JA. What we have of that in MB2 right now is just enough to satisfy a small Star Wars nerd RPer in me that's been in there since I was a child waving a wood stick I found next to my building pretending it was a glowstick. Anything more than that and you will have a bunch of servers each with different set of rules, scripts, cvars and what not and all of them will be fighting for pops of 5-10 people tops. The dev team would have little to no reason to actively continue to support the mod with new patches for balancing and new content when no one will be playing the game under their rules anyway anymore and the core idea behind the mod would have been lost and forgotten in time, like tears in rain kind of shit.

Maybe this would have worked back when the mod was more popular and hundreds and hundreds of players were playing on a daily basis, but now after 15 years when you have 100 players at best playing in the evenings it's really all about just making sure you balance the classes, mechanics and release new maps/modes to keep the pop and attract some new players. I think it's a bit too late to try and fundamentally change what this mod is about. Too little and about 15 years too late. Attempt to change now will only divide what little of a community we have left.

I can respect this response and I understand this point of view. I know that there is a solid fear of dividing the community by allowing a timelimit change but it's not an entirely reasonable fear to have. You have to look at both sides of the fence here. Sure you want to have this hardcore competitive game and by all means, it's yours you can do as you desire. But most people would come to MB2 and look at the five minutes as a negative... "You mean I only get to play five minutes as my favorite hero or a badass stormtrooper/rebel?" is the first thought that comes to mind.

I proposed what I believe is a suitable middle-ground in the post above. Maybe just free up the limits to an extent and allow MB2 players to give feedback and decide what works for the game/mod itself? AFAIK the five minutes was imposed without any real thought except for what one Dev has already confirmed, and what I already know, was to stop RPers from RPing in FA. That timelimit has been stuck with MB2 since then.

I don't see the harm in allowing a simple test to see what really works for MB2 and what doesn't. Who says we can't have more time in certain modes? It could work and it would work. Competitive Mode is for the official ruleset and I'm glad they're working on a real mode for that but we shouldn't let the other gamemodes be stuck in the past with the same limit.

 

[Tylenol]

Again, I don't see how these are completely different?

Because I don't play as much as I used to means you still play to some degree, just not as much as you might have some time ago. While I dont play at all means you don't play at all. And I really dont care much about this point since the only reason I bought it up was because it made no sense to me.

Literally you've added nothing meaningful to this conversation past

You mean I disagreed with you on certain points and feel the need to insult me? Even though I replied to many of your comments and gave examples to further the discussion. Loosen the ego and maybe there's a chance a for a proper talk here

 

[Kuras]

Because I don't play as much as I used to means you still play to some degree, just not as much as you might have some time ago. While I dont play at all means you don't play at all. And I really dont care much about this point since the only reason I bought it up was because it made no sense to me.

Glad you stopped caring about something that has nothing to do with the topic we're discussing, welcome to the debate.

You mean I disagreed with you on certain points and feel the need to insult me? Even though I replied to many of your comments and gave examples to further the discussion. Loosen the ego and maybe there's a chance a for a proper talk here

You mean a proper talk like @PuNk and I were able to have in the course of two posts? Man... respect goes both ways and it goes a long way if you just decide to be respectful in your initial reply right? Hmm!

Irregardless, your points weren't very strong. You offered up your opinion on it and I have given you mine with some evidence of how other games, even the ones you mentioned, have done it and done it better. The fact they have a small vocal minority clamoring for balance/gameplay changes just goes to show it's a balance issue and not an issue with a timelimit.

 

[Defiant]

Irregardless, your points weren't very strong. You offered up your opinion on it and I have given you mine with some evidence of how other games, even the ones you mentioned, have done it and done it better.

Excuse me, but you haven't made any strong points. You haven't explained:

• Why 5 minutes is not a suitable value
• What a suitable value (Or range) would be
• Why that value or range is more suitable than 5 minutes.

Note that acceptable arguments do not include 'Because other people do it'.

 

[Tylenol]

respect goes both ways

Oh you mean like the part where you insulted chaos within your first reply to him? I could already guess what your attitude was gonna a be from that reply.

your points weren't very strong.

You mean like the part where I brought up the gameplay in CSGO and showed that another game has the same time limit system implemented and likewise to MB2, doesn't have an issue with it?
You want a proper argument, then here you go.
The whole discussion of the time limit is pointless. MB2 has been worked on and polished for 15 years. For those 15 years, no one saw the time limit as an actual issue and changed it in anyway (apart from the 1.5 duel addition which is irrelevant since that was a QoL change). If for those 15 years no one noted anything, I very much doubt that it should become an issue right now.

 

[Kuras]

Oh you mean like the part where you insulted chaos within your first reply to him? I could already guess what your attitude was gonna a be from that reply.

Maybe you should refer to his first response then before you point the finger?

You mean like the part where I brought up the gameplay in CSGO and showed that another game has the same time limit system implemented and likewise to MB2, doesn't have an issue with it?
You want a proper argument, then here you go.
The whole discussion of the time limit is pointless. MB2 has been worked on and polished for 15 years. For those 15 years, no one saw the time limit as an actual issue and changed it in anyway (apart from the 1.5 duel addition which is irrelevant since that was a QoL change). If for those 15 years no one noted anything, I very much doubt that it should become an issue right now.

Excuse me, but it hasn't been 15 years with a hardcoded timelimit. It's been more like 9. Before that? There was no complaint nor any need to hardcode the timelimit. This was a direct result of our RP server modifying the FA specific files for our server and eliminating the timelimit. The DevTeam leads were furious about that and didn't like it so you have a hardcoded timelimit. No real reason for it. Prove me wrong but I doubt you'll be able to because there is no other reason for why that change was introduced overnight years ago.

Excuse me, but you haven't made any strong points. You haven't explained:

• Why 5 minutes is not a suitable value
• What a suitable value (Or range) would be
• Why that value or range is more suitable than 5 minutes.

Note that acceptable arguments do not include 'Because other people do it'.

Actually, I've made fairly strong points and it's not because "other people do it" it's because other more successful and experienced developers have done the math and figured the formula for themselves and have come to the conclusion that forcing non-competitive players who play your game to abide by the same rules WITHOUT a choice is literally the worst thing you can do design wise. Prove me wrong as well.

If you go up and read my previous posts you'll find ample evidence as to why I think for NON-OFFICIAL servers and NON-COMPETITIVE gamemodes a change is necessary to eliminate a hard limit and allow flexibility of choice. I propose you either A) Allow the Community to vote on a group of times that should be allowed and then introduce them to the Beta team for further testing, debug from there and do as you please. Or B) Follow the established norm for the most successful games who have been in your very shoes and have already figured it all out.

 

[Defiant]

Actually, I've made fairly strong points and it's not because "other people do it" it's because other more successful and experienced developers have done the math and figured the formula for themselves and have come to the conclusion that forcing non-competitive players who play your game to abide by the same rules WITHOUT a choice is literally the worst thing you can do design wise. Prove me wrong as well.

If you go up and read my previous posts you'll find ample evidence as to why I think for NON-OFFICIAL servers and NON-COMPETITIVE gamemodes a change is necessary to eliminate a hard limit and allow flexibility of choice. I propose you either A) Allow the Community to vote on a group of times that should be allowed and then introduce them to the Beta team for further testing, debug from there and do as you please. Or B) Follow the established norm for the most successful games who have been in your very shoes and have already figured it all out.

What you've done is participate in a logical fallacy called an "Appeal to Authority". I.e. your entire argument is based on what other people do and how they 'know best'. You haven't given it any legs of its own by considering how situations may differ or by providing an argument by comparing their approach to ours in order to demonstrate why the approach of the authority to which you have appealed is a superior approach - I.e. your argument is still 'Because other people do it'. I have read all your posts and that is all your argument falls upon. Please let me know your other reasons, I would genuinely be interested to know if there is an opportunity to provide servers with the ability to differentiate themselves without compromising gameplay.

 

[Tylenol]

Maybe you should refer to his first response then before you point the finger

Chaos always posts ridiculous and over the top comments. Sometime ago he called someone who was ginger Satan. You don't seem to know much about the people here for someone as smug as you.

it. No real reason for it. Prove me wrong but I doubt you'll be able to because there is no other reason for why that change was introduced overnight years ago.

Yea mate, I'm sure we're all willing to go and prove you wrong on something no one can prove or disprove considering the fact that all the Devs back then arent here and therefore can't really say much in this matter.

Actually, I've made fairly strong points and it's not because "other people do it" it's because other more successful and experienced developers have done the math and figured the formula for themselves and have come to the conclusion that forcing non-competitive players who play your game to abide by the same rules WITHOUT a choice is literally the worst thing you can do design wise. Prove me wrong as well.

5 minute time limits doesn't limit anyones enjoyment of the game, especially for new players. If anything, it's better for them since newer players are more vulnerable to just dying at the beginning of any round. The longer they have to wait for the next round, the more likely they are to become frustrated and stop playing.

B) Follow the established norm for the most successful games who have been in your very shoes and have already figured it all out.

Following the norms that other games do would just lose the charm of MB2. We don't need more games that follow the clichés and cookie cutter molds of COD or Final Fantasy