So lets talk about player retention in this mod...

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Your point still doesn't stick together though. CS:GO('s competitive scene) grew because of casual community made maps/game modes? How do you even know that and on what basis?
While I used Counter-Strike as an example in my previous post, I'm fairly sure that all Counter-Strike games gathered a very substantial amount of players that mainly play fun maps (there are so many iconic ones such as fy_iceworld, scoutzknives,..); crazy game modes (Warcraft 3, Zombie, Jailbreak) or simply fuck around on FFA servers. CS1.6 and CSS still have a fair amount of servers going on, and a majority of them are fun servers, or at least have some kind of extended custom modification running.
CS:GO doesn't have such a big modding community because I'm not sure Valve sees it as something they need to spend time on, so the possibilities aren't nearly as large as before, it's mainly centered around the maps rather than server/client-side modding now. Plus the fact that you have proper ranked matchmaking will drive competitive players to play only that. We don't have that incentive.
"It brings us players without requiring us to lift a finger ? Good." - someone at Valve, probably

To be honest, I don't really understand why RPers got ousted in such a way, it didn't really make sense to me either back then. Concerns were raised about the game's integrity and shifting the dev team's attention away from Open mode, but I agree that we're not exactly such a number that we can allow ourselves to be so seclusive.
Besides, what did it cost to let people have their fun on their own ? It's not like they really required for features to be added, they were willing to do it by themselves by hacking into the server configuration. I mean, MBII is a mod, it would have made sense to allow modding or at least some form of hacking for basic numbers tweaking. I understand the dev team wants control over their baby, but I'll always be in favour of allowing mod support, even more so when you started as a mod to begin with.
I'm really excited for the next patch and what it could bring to the game, but I don't fully believe that allowing people to do their stuff by themselves would have hurt this promising progression.

It's a debate that's already been had and I don't expect we'll see a change of mind though.
 
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I got into JKA for the rp. I even made a few roleplay maps back in my day. (Ord Mantell Rp - JKHub , for instance). I never understood why this community obstinately disregarded the player retention those servers brought. Even today if you mention rp on an mb2 server you should be prepared to receive a liberal amount of insults.
 
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I got into JKA for the rp. I even made a few roleplay maps back in my day. (Ord Mantell Rp - JKHub , for instance). I never understood why this community obstinately disregarded the player retention those servers brought. Even today if you mention rp on an mb2 server you should be prepared to receive a liberal amount of insults.
I'm glad my post struck a nerve with people.

The reality is that the competitive scene for a 80 year old game is dead. Gotta pick up the pieces that are left. It's crazy to me, because theres a huge untapped market from casual-semi-casual that could really ramp up the activity and spread word of mouth. There is no competition between MBII and anything else on the market. However, it is incredibly constrained.

I've been thinking about this a lot and despite the QoL enhancements, when I get on the latest version I just don't see a lot of content in how many years? I started in B17. B18, RC1 content was really coming out. The FA enhancements were awesome as well. I just pop in to look for excitement and its always a balancing act, probably due to the competitive nature of this game.

Just let people have fun with the mod, let them play the way they want and see the game really take off. Remove the hard-coded time limit and allow the admins to adjust the time limit based on the .siege file like it used to. That would be a start. Word of mouth would spread.

Props to you btw. Well done. GTK is a tough skill to attain. Map looks dope.

To be honest, I don't really understand why RPers got ousted in such a way, it didn't really make sense to me either back then. Concerns were raised about the game's integrity and shifting the dev team's attention away from Open mode, but I agree that we're not exactly such a number that we can allow ourselves to be so seclusive.
Besides, what did it cost to let people have their fun on their own ? It's not like they really required for features to be added, they were willing to do it by themselves by hacking into the server configuration. I mean, MBII is a mod, it would have made sense to allow modding or at least some form of hacking for basic numbers tweaking. I understand the dev team wants control over their baby, but I'll always be in favour of allowing mod support, even more so when you started as a mod to begin with.
I'm really excited for the next patch and what it could bring to the game, but I don't fully believe that allowing people to do their stuff by themselves would have hurt this promising progression.
Just heads up this whole game integrity and shifting attention was total garbage. Defenders of Peace was probably the end all be all RP group from B17-18. We never asked for resources or assistance. I think at some point I asked to include certain options from open into FA but there was literally no request from any RP server at the time for content. Thats just deflection. There was some grudge regarding RPers and I'm not sure what the issue was exactly or who was behind this.

The team actually dedicated attention to destroy RP when they hard-coded the time limits, instead of allowing the .siege file for the maps dictate the length of the game. They went out of their way to make sure RP couldn't exist, and this is targeted against a group of ~40 players that had the server on password lock as not to hurt/injure the integrity of the mod or the players from joining a game they weren't wanting to play. We should have just hid the server from the browser looking back.

I put a lot of time and thought into developing the server and with the time limit broken, we achieved a ton. We had awesome times and I still get comments today from old members about how amazing it was.

MBII is a great mod, with freedom it could be a end all be all Star Wars game for every community and player.
 
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Yeah, I never really found the points made against RPers to be relevant or justified.
I didn't comment with much certainty in my previous posts here because I never dwelled into RP servers myself, but I had the impression that pretty much all of them were password-locked in order not to hurt the rest of the playing community (+to deter trolls) back then.

While I'm usually very supportive of the dev team and will always try to put myself in their shoes since it's very easy to dismiss all their hard work in favour of "what we want", I think going for the nuclear option against a community as benign as the RPers was a stupid ass move with dubious motives that struck me as more prideful than legitimate back then.
 

GoodOl'Ben

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While I'm usually very supportive of the dev team and will always try to put myself in their shoes since it's very easy to dismiss all their hard work in favour of "what we want", I think going for the nuclear option against a community as benign as the RPers was a stupid ass move with dubious motives that struck me as more prideful than legitimate back then.
I do hope that you don't hold the active team accountable as I'd wager the people behind the change are not active. It's been well over 12 years since that change was made.

I attempted to do some digging to see if I could figure out motives from the commits or comments in code. I wasn't able to get to the commit that changed this, since our code repo only went as far as late May 2008, which is around RC1 era. The code itself doesn't mention much beyond "/**< Default Time Limit of 5 minutes if time limit is not defined in .siege file */"
 
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I do hope that you don't hold the active team accountable as I'd wager the people behind the change are not active. It's been well over 12 years since that change was made.

I attempted to do some digging to see if I could figure out motives from the commits or comments in code. I wasn't able to get to the commit that changed this, since our code repo only went as far as late May 2008, which is around RC1 era. The code itself doesn't mention much beyond "/**< Default Time Limit of 5 minutes if time limit is not defined in .siege file */"
No one currently around was behind it or even on the team at the time. These were potentially mistakes of the past and thats all. Just sharing a history and was not implying anyone was at fault. I don't know the team members that were specifically against it to begin with.
 

MaceMadunusus

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The team actually dedicated attention to destroy RP when they hard-coded the time limits, instead of allowing the .siege file for the maps dictate the length of the game. They went out of their way to make sure RP couldn't exist
I'd wager the people behind the change are not active.
No one currently around was behind it or even on the team at the time.
False, I was there when this happened, and I am the reason it was even noticed in the first place. All that happened, was I went on a server run by Skinner to see what was going on, I have known Skinner since before JA 1.01 and MB2 itself even existed and was checking out a friends server. Prior to this, RP had pretty much died out (so much for being popular), only to be resurrected again after the release of RC1 with a mb2_duel_ravager siege file that was incomplete. This was an oversight that I made when making the level, and when I joined Skinners server to play I noticed something was off. I pointed it out to the team, and fixed my .siege file. When I pointed it out to the team, they mentioned that the values were supposed to be hard coded, but apparently were not. It was fixed shortly after there as well without much fuss or debate and was fixed by someone in the team that didn't really seem to give two shits either way on RP. We didn't rush to release the patch, because it wasn't an urgent matter and the fix was released in a patch 6 MONTHS after it was discovered. The only patches released post RC1 were serverside hotfixes meant to deal with Q3fill related server crashes because those were MUCH more important to deal with.

I'm not even sure if the community at that point knew why timelimit was off as the only map I saw RP servers played on was ravager.

I have mentioned this before and I am going to mention it again, many devs disagreements with RP only served to reinforce the decision to limit the time limit but was not the cause of limiting / fixing it. RP is not the only reason we wanted time limit to be limited, stop acting like it is. Sorry we don't want 1,000 tick battlefield servers either just like we dont want infinite point servers. There was only what, 2-3 developers over the entire time I have been on the team that were vehemently against RP, but they were not the ones to enforce the time limit, and they are not the majority of the team. You're not going to find any comments or commits in code which specifically mention RP in regards to the time limit because that is not what happened.

I say all of this as someone who made multiple maps specifically for role playing, many of which never got to see the light of day because projects that focus on RP all DIED while we lived. A fully seamless Dantooine level, with a much larger enclave with player houses that people could buy that I built. Multiple areas of Taris that I built beyond what I released to JK3files, A massively expanded Korriban built by Plasma and myself (two mb2 devs) that included Dreshdae, the Sith Academy, and the start of the Valley of the Dark Lords. Not to mention a massive part of Mos Espa including the Boonta Eve raceway that I was working on. A large fully featured Republic Assault Cruiser that mb2_republiccruiser, mb2_duel_rcbridge, mb2_duel_detention, all came from. All of that damn effort ended up being useless because people did not care about it in the same way they cared about MB2. Yet with all this, I will always be the enemy to so many here who have spoken, simply because I disagree with releasing the timelimit simply because I do not think it fits MB2s game design at all and believe we should focus on expanding what we have. I think having core game rules are important.

Future game modes for MB2 will have differing time limits to suit their needs. All future game modes will have limits based on their game type, like CTF having max capture limits to prevent rounds from going for an eternity, and the same with conquest having max "ticket" limits.
 

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False, I was there when this happened, and I am the reason it was even noticed in the first place. All that happened, was I went on a server run by Skinner to see what was going on, I have known Skinner since before JA 1.01 and MB2 itself even existed and was checking out a friends server. Prior to this, RP had pretty much died out (so much for being popular), only to be resurrected again after the release of RC1 with a mb2_duel_ravager siege file that was incomplete. This was an oversight that I made when making the level, and when I joined Skinners server to play I noticed something was off. I pointed it out to the team, and fixed my .siege file. When I pointed it out to the team, they mentioned that the values were supposed to be hard coded, but apparently were not. It was fixed shortly after there as well without much fuss or debate and was fixed by someone in the team that didn't really seem to give two shits either way on RP. We didn't rush to release the patch, because it wasn't an urgent matter and the fix was released in a patch 6 MONTHS after it was discovered. The only patches released post RC1 were serverside hotfixes meant to deal with Q3fill related server crashes because those were MUCH more important to deal with.

I'm not even sure if the community at that point knew why timelimit was off as the only map I saw RP servers played on was ravager.

I have mentioned this before and I am going to mention it again, many devs disagreements with RP only served to reinforce the decision to limit the time limit but was not the cause of limiting / fixing it. RP is not the only reason we wanted time limit to be limited, stop acting like it is. Sorry we don't want 1,000 tick battlefield servers either just like we dont want infinite point servers. There was only what, 2-3 developers over the entire time I have been on the team that were vehemently against RP, but they were not the ones to enforce the time limit, and they are not the majority of the team. You're not going to find any comments or commits in code which specifically mention RP in regards to the time limit because that is not what happened.

I say all of this as someone who made multiple maps specifically for role playing, many of which never got to see the light of day because projects that focus on RP all DIED while we lived. A fully seamless Dantooine level, with a much larger enclave with player houses that people could buy that I built. Multiple areas of Taris that I built beyond what I released to JK3files, A massively expanded Korriban built by Plasma and myself (two mb2 devs) that included Dreshdae, the Sith Academy, and the start of the Valley of the Dark Lords. Not to mention a massive part of Mos Espa including the Boonta Eve raceway that I was working on. A large fully featured Republic Assault Cruiser that mb2_republiccruiser, mb2_duel_rcbridge, mb2_duel_detention, all came from. All of that damn effort ended up being useless because people did not care about it in the same way they cared about MB2. Yet with all this, I will always be the enemy to so many here who have spoken, simply because I disagree with releasing the timelimit simply because I do not think it fits MB2s game design at all and believe we should focus on expanding what we have. I think having core game rules are important.

Future game modes for MB2 will have differing time limits to suit their needs. All future game modes will have limits based on their game type, like CTF having max capture limits to prevent rounds from going for an eternity, and the same with conquest having max "ticket" limits.
You devs don't need to do anything or implement any support for RP, because it was never an official/supported game mode to begin with.All you need to do is make it possible for people to have longer rounds on FA, like 30 or 60 minutes. Literally nothing else, just leave them alone. There are no demerits to allowing this, and only positives as far as I can see, such as bringing back potential RP players and allowing existing players to enjoy modified servers that don't round restart every 5 min for no fucking reason.
 

MaceMadunusus

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You devs don't need to do anything or implement any support for RP
Notice how I said nothing about effort towards supporting or implementing RP related features in the post. This shows me you didn't bother to read. All you do is debate in bad faith. The fact that you say you can only see positives, when I literally list negative consequences of allowing such things in my post itself shows you cannot see past your own biases as per usual considering your slander towards me and my apparent hate against RP in the past, despite working on a RP mod for years while also working on MB2. You just want what you want, and you don't care about anything else.
 

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Notice how I said nothing about effort towards supporting or implementing RP related features in the post. This shows me you didn't bother to read. All you do is debate in bad faith. The fact that you say you can only see positives, when I literally list negative consequences of allowing such things in my post itself shows you cannot see past your own biases as per usual considering your slander towards me and my apparent hate against RP in the past, despite working on a RP mod for years while also working on MB2. You just want what you want, and you don't care about anything else.
I read your entire post and I know your reasons from past exchanges. If you want me to spell it out for you, then I do not view your reasons as legitimate. Afaik I did not post in bad faith here, nor did I slander you. I think your reasons for forcing ppl who play on a PW protected FA/RP server to do 5 min rounds are ridiculous, that's all. I'm sure you're a wonderful supporter of RP and all that. Idc. I just don't see any legitimate reason to limit the round timer now.

How about you make a list of why unmaking the 5 min hardcoded timer will destroy MBII, preferably bullet point and not interlaced with tangential ramblings about what happened 12 years ago and then we can all be on the same page.
 

MaceMadunusus

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If you want me to spell it out for you, then I do not view your reasons as legitimate.
And you never will, because you care about nothing but your own personal gain. You will never see any ones opinion other than your own as valid even when facts are brought up into the equation and all you have are anecdotes. When someone brings an opposing viewpoint you call them names then double down. I'm not going to bother, this conversation is over.
 

SeV

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And you never will, because you care about nothing but your own personal gain. You will never see any ones opinion other than your own as valid even when facts are brought up into the equation and all you have are anecdotes. When someone brings an opposing viewpoint you call them names then double down and refuse to apologize. I'm not going to bother, this conversation is over.
We haven't even had a conversation lol. You've just wafted calumny my way a couple of times whilst having a mental breakdown and talking to yourself.

Why would unlocking the 5 minute timer have pernicious effects on the game? Why? I cannot understand it. It is a completely ridiculous assertion.
 
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Well it's too late now, rp is dead.

Btw Mace, your Taris map on JK2files is what got me into mapping. It was so gorgeous I had to learn to do it myself.
 
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A very small minority of CS:GO players play on modded community servers, most play competitive with a smaller playerbase playing the casual game modes.
 
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Boohoo, the round resets every 5 minutes. :(:(:(

The sheer inconvenience! The madness! You monsters!!

:rolleyes:

This is not a conversation. Nor am I mocking you or insulting you clowns. :p

But let's be honest. Euro-peens killed the saber system and now wish to suck the last remaining joy and life out of the game to....
jerk off.

How about, instead of making demands or dictating how others should respond - you learn to code.
 

SeV

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Boohoo, the round resets every 5 minutes. :(:(:(

The sheer inconvenience! The madness! You monsters!!

:rolleyes:

This is not a conversation. Nor am I mocking you or insulting you clowns. :p

But let's be honest. Euro-peens killed the saber system and now wish to suck the last remaining joy and life out of the game to....
jerk off.

How about, instead of making demands or dictating how others should respond - you learn to code.
 
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False, I was there when this happened, and I am the reason it was even noticed in the first place. All that happened, was I went on a server run by Skinner to see what was going on, I have known Skinner since before JA 1.01 and MB2 itself even existed and was checking out a friends server.
Lol, you're the best friend a person could have... Holy shit.

"Hey bro, you should check out this RP server with all the work I stole from another server"
"Oh yeah? Ok cool."
"What'd you think?"
Mace to dev team - We need to hard code time limits.

I'm not even sure if the community at that point knew why timelimit was off as the only map I saw RP servers played on was ravager.
Not us. We had an extensive collection of maps.

It just wasn't a necessary fix. It only affected RPers. The only way it was happening was by editing the .siege files and removing the timelimit 300 from it. It didn't affect any other servers except those choosing to use it.
 
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MaceMadunusus

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Mace to dev team - We need to hard code time limits.
Thx for not reading what I said. I was never the one that suggested hard coding the time limit to the team. The team helped me decipher what I fucked up in the siege file as I was still new to making things for MB2 then (my first release as a team member). I was the peon then with no power over anything. I had no clue that the time limit was supposed to be hard coded then at all.

It only affected RPers.
False, it just affected you guys the most.

Not us. We had an extensive collection of maps.
I was talking about RC1, you said you were B17-18.
 
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