SeV's Saber System Fix

[SeV]

Bare with me and try to understand, as I lay bare some of my thoughts on the saber system. Please listen uncritically to a player who's cared for this game and sabering ystem for over 8 years. Btw, this spawned from a reply to the PB post by Apex, but the reply turned into this...

Introduction: Skip to suggestions if you want.

I think the current PB system is good, but as stassin mentioned you can sometimes accidentally PB. Another issue I see with this system is that attacking like a fucking maniac is 90% better than focusing on defensive play because of parries. In the saberclash-systems parrying happened less frequently because of halfswing exchanges. Also, Angling ur saber when both attacking and defending, and countering with proper timing was the old way of playing and I know stassin thinks it was more random than not, and therefore bad and didn't take skill, yet I disagree. The old system was full of depth and took a great deal of skill, just as the current one does. They're just different.

So why is spamming such a viable way of playing, as opposed to focusing on PBs, correct timing and skillful countering etc?
Well, because the fucking attacks PARRY and a parry is better than a PB (ignoring perks for now).

In alot of situations, alot of the time, maybe more than 70 percent of a duel, parrying blocks more hits than PBing. Parrying can block hits at 0 bp. It completely trivializes the current PB system, because at 0 BP you can just go Yoda mode and jump around, swinging and parrying, then jump to reset and repeat. With red u can use the stagger aswell for an added 0 BP bonus defense.

In essence, my gripe is not with the current PB system, but with how it was implemented and what is missing. Tweaks, not revamps or returns to old systems. If skilled veteran players all put their heads together I'm sure we can come up with improvements that'll make the current system as much fun as the old one.



So...

This list of suggestions isn't a take it or leave it whole course, it's a buffet of suggestions to somehow spice up the current rather dull and lifeless system. (it sounds like I'm saying it's bad, but what I'm saying is that it's more boring, not worse or that it takes less skill. Why do you think people left? Because saber system wasn't fun for them anymore, but it's fun for sisi I assume...)




Here are my suggestions for a better saber system.




#1 Non-Trivial Counters:
A successful PB allows the user to Counter. That Counter will 'override' a normal swing (pass through a parry) and deal extra BP damage. Only works on the first swing after a PB.

Comment: Not extra BP by a huge amount, but enough to make countering and counter-countering a desirable tactic for skilled people as compared to mindlessly spamming combos (whether they be 2 hit combos followed by quick resets to get ACM or not... it's still mindless spam that takes little skill. I don't think it's much different from 4 hit combo spamming with yellow, it's just an evolution of the same playstyle.)

On the BP multiplier, I don't know if 1.1 swingblocked and 1.3 unswingblocked will be enough, but the main point of this is not the increased BP damage, though that is a required thing to make counters less trivial and more desirable. The real focus is on the fact that this allows people who can PB+counter to BYPASS 0 bp parry spamming retards.

(Extra note: Check my youtube videos of sisi vs sekundus and you'll see alot of retarded 0 BP jump spam. Sometimse it lasts for 30 seconds spamming at 0 bp before sisi dies to sekundus)

#2 More low bp parry fixes:
Getting hit while running and swinging without swingblock causes the user to lose his lightsaber if he is below 1/2 BP and stagger if he is above 1/2 BP.

Comment: First, the values can be adjusted down to be 1/4 disarm threshold or even lower.

Reason and history: many have suggested that a jedi/sith's movement speed be slowed at low/0 BP in the past. This would interfere with open mode gameplay in a non-trivial way. My suggestion does not harm open mode gameplay, it just makes it slightly more important to be aware of your BP in-case of an enemy jedi/sith. I mean for fucks sake, a 0 BP sith in open can take on a bunch of noob jedi by spamming parries and using red stagger and BP is supposed to be for blocking lightsaber attacks. You shouldn''t be just fine without BP against a jedi/sith... as said before it trivializes PB and the entire MB2 system, returning us to a base-like state of retarded spam. This 0 skill shit has to stop, and suggestion #1 and #2 help solve this problem. There is no good reason not to implement.

#3 Cyan Perk
Yes, the cyan parry perk has to get the fuck out of here. it encourages a retarded, 0 skill noobish playstyle that I've tried to crush with suggestions #1 and 2.

Comments: If cyan has to be removed from the game as a useless style, so be it. But cyan's parry perk opposes all that is good about the current saber system and has to go.

#4 Cyan revamp
Cyan's first swing is yellow speed, blue dmg (ish), and with each swing in the combo/chain it increases in speed and damage until it is blue speed, yellow damage at around 4 swings? Upon reset, returns to being Yellow speed, blue dmg.

New perk:
Performing an Mblock (with PB), makes the counter start at blue speed, yellow BP dmg level.

Comments: Cyan is too weak without the derpy, SHITTY parrying perk. Revamping cyan is no small matter. My first suggestion is to make cyan's first swing slower, but each subsequent swing increase in speed within the combo chain. First swing speed starts out around yellow level , with blue dmg, and as we get deeper into the swings, speed and damage increase to reverse, blue speed and yellow dmg. This happens for combos and single swings alike within a given combo-chain (You know, before the reset. So you can combo ur way up to extremely fast halfswings). This would make cyan a unique aggressive style instead of the derpy, half-assed style that it currently is.

The perk requires skill to be good, unlike the disgusting parry perk.

#5 Staff changes
Staff mblocks no longer stagger the opponent. Instead, they get an active verson of the stagger on the currently unused saberthrow button.

Active stagger: Works like the mblock stagger, has a cooldown of 8 seconds, requires a PB+button press to succeed so that it still takes timing and some skill.

Comments: The current staff stagger mechanic is simply too overpowered considering staff's def and off stats. It also slows duels to a crawl. It is simply too overpowered. Yes it takes a little bit of skill to use, but if you practice it you can perform it just as easily as you PB and thus the amount of skill needed to execute it is not in proportion to how good it is.

My suggestion is a nerf to the stagger mechanic. Even if it got removed entirely staff would still be an excellent style because it has good defense and offensive stats. Also, the 8 sec cooldown can be shown like the slap cooldown is currently.

#6 Slap/kick
This one is simple, up the cooldown from 2.5 sec to 4 seconds.

Comments/reasoning: Slap is often spammed. Making the cooldown longer does not impact duels in a negative way, as there's no saberclash facehug anymore, just regular old facehug which doesn't have much of an effect. The second reason for increasing slap cooldown is that it helps guide players towards using the PB+Counter mechanic that I mentioned above. It also helps make revamped cyan playstyle more dangerous. It reinforces proper use of slap, combats spamming it constantly.

#7 Duals changes
Duals stab no longer gives the user an ACC.
You can only parry with the first swing in a combo.
Duals stab can parry+knockback. Main defensive mechanic on duals.
Duals have slightly more BP multiplier than before to compensate for loss of combo-spammed parries as a defensive mechanic.

Comments: It's quite simple really. Duals is a spammy playstyle that can completely ignore PBs. When playing duals, you NEVER EVER focus on PBing, instead only on attacking, parrying, stabbing, gaining ACM and running away to regen BP... Very gay style of play atm.

#8 Red changes
Red loses PB BP drain perk.

New Perk: The parry bypass from PBing+Countering lasts for the entire combo instead of for only 1 swing.

In addition, Red gets a new ability. Pressing the saberthrow button makes reds first swing a halfswing, exactly like the old weaponswitch/twirl trick, but HP damage is decreased to 50 HP. (To balance in open-mode) and movement speed is slowed to 80 percent for 2 sec after pressing the button. Lasts 2 sec before expiring. Takes 0.5 sec before you can attack after you've pressed the button and activated the ability.

Cooldown 8 seconds

Comments: The old red PB perk makes it a very strong stance and without the perk it's perhaps not strong enough. The Parry bypass perk allows reds counter-combo's to be effective and is a more attack oriented perk as it bypasses parry defenses. Also, the counter combo can be slapped making it a more risky perk with less success chance. All this serves to increase the skill it takes to play with and against red while slightly nerfing the defensive power.

The new halfswing ability is needed for red to give it a more attack-based flavour. I don't care what anyone says, red should have this ability. If an 8 sec cooldown proves to be too short, then increase it to 10 seconds, Idc. With such a long cooldown it is trivial in the actual duel itself, but serves to spice things up and keep players on their toes against red, knowing that at any moment the Red user can go brutal offense. It gives red more unique flavour similar to playing against the current stagger staff. If a style has a mechanic you cannot ignore, that gives personality to that style. Red is an iconic aggressive style so why not give it this ability? It is not overpowered at all compared to the 8+ BP drain on PB perk, and if implemented with the HP dmg nerf to swings in that combo it won't make the style OP in open either, though it'll give red users an opportunity to finish off facehugging gunners that they've deflected down to low HP. Another bonus, though not a dueling bonus, still worth noting.

#9 Blue changes
Make blue spins fast so that you can utilize those combos in combat and not be afraid of spinning.

Comments: Blue is already a good, unique, fun style loved by many. Perhaps it's a tad strong but that's to be expected because of the parry shit. With my PB+Counter suggestion bypassing parries for a single swing, it should help balance things out vs spammy styles like blue. The above suggestion makes blue users able to attack in more varied ways, and I know everyone would appreciate it if spinning didn't fuck them over with blue. It helps even the slight nerf that the PB+Counter introduces to blue in a non OP or otherwise annoying or roundabout way.

Extra note: It would be cool if you could slow down blue counters just a tad, and make blue users able to counter with a w swing in a proper manner. Think of a kendo strike, that's the kind of blue counter I'd like to see more of. Make this new blue counter as prevalent about as prevalent as the yellow left swing counter.

#10 Force powers.
Force Speed becomes a neutral force power.

Jedis get Force Heal.

lvl 1 cost 4 - drains 20 fp per sec, heals 5 hp per second. User is immobile (Kneeling heal stance)
lvl 2 cost 6 - drains 10 fp per sec, heals 6 hp per sec. User is immobile (Kneeling heal stance)
lvl 3 cost 8 - drains 10 fp per sec, heals 10 per sec. User can move while healing.

Note: I'd like speed to be implemented regardless of heal. There's an argument for giving Jedis force grip. Sith can use lightning (sith Sorcery), but all force users can use grip to some extent and as Kyle said, the forcepower itself is not evil, it's how you use it. So you can put grip in both jedi and sith if my force heal suggestion is not to your liking.

Comments: Why? Speed is needed in the current dueling system to counter the retarded backslash and with jedi's being the only ones to have speed, it makes sith less versatile in dueling. Also, the many implications in open recommend speed. If sith have speed... there are so many tactical implications. They had it before, they can have it again. It's worth a try. People want it, old vets, newer players, recognized MB2 personalities. So many ppl are asking for this. So give it to them.

The specifics of force heal balancing can be changed to suit the balance. My values are just placeholder suggestions.

 

[Stassin]

That was the beauty of old PB: you couldn't do it consistently. Dodging was a viable alternative.

In other words, PB was useless, thus spamming and dodging were the only viable way to play (not an "alternative" lol), thus it was fun because it didn't require any brain, rather muscle memory with simple combos and always the same effective way of playing. Requiring your brain to play takes away all the mindless fun sadly. hahahaha

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Because that's what he said?

I know it's only natural to defend your work but don't twist such nonsense.
I don't enjoy the current pb system and its not because it requires a brain, if you call aiming at specific points regardless of saber placement - using you're brain.

It actually makes my brain hurt seeing how wrong it is. Making sense apparently means its mindless. I went from focusing on my saber and theirs, to staring at my crosshair. Yay, so much fun. I'd eliminate crosshair from jedi huds altogether if I could. Mind you, I played an entire build without a hud and still dueled qutie well But that was b19 which was its own disaster.

But as I said. It's not much of an issue for me. I'm casual at best. But I do dislike it more because of Open. You lot like to continuously stack the odds when faced off against multiple opponents. Because spam takes skill. Because the swarm simply spamming you takes skill. In one build you didnt even have to hold block to pb so long as you're saber met theirs. I had them lulz. And now, those lulz are gone. You took them from me. You're a lulz taker. A pox on you!


Also, because Randomizing directions takes skill over actually angling your saber AND the type of attack you implement. Because going the console/arcade route of these are your combos, pick some and practice them!

Oversimplified and overworked.

I say you should have done this in increments, or at the least, halfsies. Implemented the addition of the new saber styles and then...maybe, this pb system.
It wouldnt be so bad if it at least it worked visually.

The only meduim I can think of is if you change the location of the pb hitboxes, yeah, lets call them that, because thats what they are. Pb hitboxes you're crosshair must hit. You're screen flashes green and you get 10 extra points!

Woohoo.

 

[Stassin]

Because that's what he said?
In one build you didnt even have to hold block to pb so long as you're saber met theirs. I had them lulz. And now, those lulz are gone. You took them from me. You're a lulz taker.

Haha someone is actually saying it out loud. By the way, how does aiming to the ground to PB any low/middle swing make more "sense"/how is it more intuitive than having to aim where the saber is coming from (which it was always intended to be) ? Oh, let me think, you got used to saber clashes causing PB, even if it happened while you had your back turned on the enemy (yeah it did happen sometimes), so as a result it makes more sense to you; adaptation. 'Cause really, needing to aim with your crosshair at the incoming saber totally doesn't visually put your own saber in-between, so much that it hurts your brain. That totally makes sense. Sad. haha

 

[Firestrike]

Haha someone is actually saying it out loud. By the way, how does aiming to the ground to PB any low/middle swing make more "sense"/how is it more intuitive than having to aim where the saber is coming from (which it was always intended to be)

There's the problem Stassin, PB wasn't 100% perfect back with nudges/bboxes in the older systems. It visually and realistically made sense though, I can say for certain that I have PB'd swings on this build that I clearly see hit my body, but I was looking in the right quadrant so I got the block off, which just doesn't make sense to me. Both systems aren't perfect. The problem is that instead of very simply trying to tweak and fix the blocking style that was used from the start of launch up to now so that it didn't favor strictly looking down for some swings, all the resources went into scrapping the old block system / hastily creating a new one and now we have arcade PB how many correct quadrants can you guess in this 4 swing combo.

Not to mention that nudge just got swallowed up and removed after RC1, which really destroyed a lot of the reactive gameplay of "playing off of your opponent's saber" and "turning your enemy's swings against them". IMO this is where a lot of the fun left the building.

This is a random video from B18. Graphics wise it's kind of an eyesore compared to now but the dueling gameplay was exciting. If you pay attention to how sabers collided with each other, you notice that saber placement was just as crucial as your swings. Putting your saber right into their swing led to more options than just the PB - it lead to halfswings, counters, nudges, and more. The overall amount of swings in a duel was at least double of what it is now. When sabers had hitboxes and nudge attached to them, the duels felt like actual battles of momentum as well as the BP bar, you could actually feel and see yourself overpower your opponent. Each nudge and collision could either be a block, a counter, or erupt into a flurry of swings, depending on your playstyle. Now swings either pass through each other or bounce off. When this kind of saber interaction left the game the dueling fun factor started to take a nose dive, although granted it was still better than the stale potato we have now.

I remember when you actually had a chance to 1v2 or 2v4 in open mode with the older systems and old BP drains, I remember seeing veteran saberists actually being able to hold the 1v2 off quite well or even win which to me was a clear measure of true skill. That too seems to be gone now. It seems that as an unforeseen byproduct of this system that 1 vs more than 1 is impossible without an unreasonably large skill gap or amount of luck.

How can you guys honestly say what we have in this build is more fun if you actively played most of the old builds? I can't speak for everyone but if someone seriously took a hard look at the positives of what the saber system was like when this game was flourishing at its prime and expanded on them, perfecting the system that worked for us for nearly a decade, maybe we'd have a lot more fun with it.

 

[Stassin]

Visual cashes/interactions which looked more intense than sabers passing through each other, yeah that's awesome, it gives you the feeling that there's alot going on even when the player has no idea what he's doing, and when he knows what he's doing he can't control the system consistently at all. v0 PB was the same basically.

Oh you want more visuals right. What if such visuals were here (sabers clashing into each other even when not swinging, blocking animations), yet didn't actually touch the current gameplay ? That might happen.

This build might not be more "fun" due to this lack of visuals, but it is definitely the most consistent and skill-based it's ever been. The gameplay just needs to be twisted a tad so that parry spam becomes a less important part of the meta, and that is all.

Putting your saber right into their swing led to more options than just the PB - it lead to halfswings, counters, nudges, and more. The overall amount of swings in a duel was at least double of what it is now.

This is funny, just meant to look good when you aren't actually saying anything... the only thing that happened when you put your saber into the enemy's, swing or not, was a blocking animation from which you could start a new swing (from a random direction btw). Not a "halfswing, counter, nudge and more", lol.

Each nudge and collision could either be a block, a counter, or erupt into a flurry of swings, depending on your playstyle.

Yeah that's awesome, you can do the same now, except you can choose any direction you want for counter swings which is better, and idle saber collisions no longer happen so only swings can trigger counters and all which makes the system alot clearer (though less fun). Lol.

the reactive gameplay of "playing off of your opponent's saber" and "turning your enemy's swings against them".

?? lol, playing off of your opponent's saber, i.e. start halfswings from idle saber clashing which implies your opponent wasn't doing anything at that time - very reactive gameplay indeed. Turning your enemy's swings against them, you mean something like countering right, that's obviously part of the current build.

 

[agentoo8]

Comparing older builds that had more players/duelists does not equate into being better.
The game is over 10 years old. Most people have stopped playing because of this, regardless of how good the game is now, i.e. the best its ever been. Some things just reach their natural demise.

 

[Firestrike]

the only thing that happened when you put your saber into the enemy's, swing or not, was a blocking animation from which you could start a new swing (from a random direction btw). Not a "halfswing, counter, nudge and more", lol.

? lol, playing off of your opponent's saber, i.e. start halfswings from idle saber clashing which implies your opponent wasn't doing anything at that time - very reactive gameplay indeed. Turning your enemy's swings against them, you mean something like countering right, that's obviously part of the current build.

That's not entirely true man, the saber collisions weren't just an idle placeholder block animation. You are forgetting that each time the nudge animation came up your swing counter reset. Look at the video more closely (1:14 and 1:17) but I do agree a lot of the nudging in this video is off an idle (holding block?) saber. It also happened on body hits as well. When you made that nudge or that clash with the saber and the animation popped out, that saber animation still had it's own hitbox on it. You had the chance for the parry, counter, halfswing, whatever, I'm not saying it to be fancy, just emphasizing each clash was an opportunity for swing reset for whatever you had planned.

That's why duels were a lot faster paced as well, there were simply just more opportunities to swing - and indeed more people did swing. I knew players that could 3-5 hit yellow combo, nudge the last swing as it was ending into the opposing saber, then start up another 3-5 hit combo. I also knew players that could nudge red swings like no tomorrow and getting remotely close spelled doom for the opponent. Staff was the 1v2 go to because of how big your personal saber hitbox was (just look at how fat Maul's block arc is in the video). Those were the perks back then, there seemed to be more variety and less cookie cutter combo patterns and playstyles. I may be wrong but I don't know of any swing reset mechanic like that in this build, it seems more slow paced.

There were still bugs of course, like passthroughs because the hitbox was in the saber, not the player model, AP glitches (building AP on a friendly jedi and unleashing it on a sith) and other kinks to be worked out, but it was fun. I agree that besides the blocking system this build takes a lot more raw mechanical skill than previous builds, but there are clear pros and cons to both. This system has a lot more consistency in terms of what happens in a duel, no more dreaded passthrough --> body hit RIP BP. No more slap --> groundpound instant dead. But it just seems to lack that flair and excitement a lot of us used to love, and I think it's mainly because of the saber hitbox being passed on to the model, removing nudging, and making the saber not affect PB puts the feel of lightsaber combat in a spot some could feel is less engaging.

 

[Stassin]

each clash was an opportunity for swing reset for whatever you had planned.

All comes down to that, + nudge (when non-swinging saber touched body), that's clearly how it worked according to this video. All the bugs that may have existed before don't really matter, we're talking about core mechanics.

That's why duels were a lot faster paced as well

That's an illusion. Swings or even idle sabers were clashing at every turn, causing blocking animations from which you could start new swings indeed, however it also means you couldn't go on with your initial combo like you can now, as a result combos were constantly being reset. There's no way that being able to go on with your own combo is less fast-paced, and on top of that the enemy is also going on with his thus it's actually alot harder to keep track of both combos compared to both being reset to a similar point (a blocking animation); however it causes less visual interaction between both players (what the enemy is doing doesn't look like it impacts your own combo as much) which would lead to a much "less engaging feel" without a doubt, even though you objectively have much more control over what you are doing since it doesn't get reset all the time.

I can understand that such a reset mechanic would make the system alot more fun (simply because "movie-like stuff is actually happening"), in the end it's probably exactly what GoodOlBen is always talking about bringing back swing interruptions. My main gripe with those blocking animations is that they don't let you choose which swing direction you want to follow them up with.

 

[Stassin]

I think it would be best to keep the current mechanics as a basis, and add visual-only blocking animations like before when sabers clash; they wouldn't interfere with swinging, i.e. they wouldn't allow you to start halfswings, instead starting a swing would override them.

 

[SeV]

I think it would be best to keep the current mechanics as a basis, and add visual-only blocking animations like before when sabers clash; they wouldn't interfere with swinging, i.e. they wouldn't allow you to start halfswings, instead starting a swing would override them.

This is exactly what I've been wanting for a long time now. If the RC1 block animations were back, but didn't impede or hinder gameplay in any way, that would be very cool. You'd be able to more clearly see if the enemy PB'd alot of your swings too. The current PB anim leaves something to be desired, that's for sure ^^

 

[hleV]

In other words, PB was useless, thus spamming and dodging were the only viable way to play (not an "alternative" lol), thus it was fun because it didn't require any brain, rather muscle memory with simple combos and always the same effective way of playing. Requiring your brain to play takes away all the mindless fun sadly. hahahaha

Sek was PBing me all the time. That attempt at being a smartass tho...

In any case. The previous builds (I've played since V0) were all more fun than the current one. That's how it is. Deal with it. All your arguments about brain usage, consistency and randomlessness mean absolutely nothing when the game is less fun than it was.

Oh? To some the new system is more fun? Good for them. It's irrelevant as far as people dissatisfied with the new system are concerned.

With the new system you achieved nothing but your own imagination of a better system. You've done no favor to MB2 and its community whatsoever.

 

[Stassin]

All your arguments about brain usage, consistency and randomlessness mean absolutely nothing when the game is less fun than it was.

What i'm saying is those arguments are the reason why you think the game is less fun. Yeah that's right, you liked it better before, because it was about bashing mouse 1 left-right thoughtlessly like a monkey; well too bad, to some the definition of "better" suggests that you shouldn't be rewarded in-game by doing that, so the current system is much better. You don't like it ? Your problem, go play some other game where you can do what you like. Your opinion is subjective as hell and anyways you barely even know what you really want. If you feel like being useful give tips on how to make the system "fun" again for you, while at the same time keeping the current PB, the current parries, the current number of combos in swings and cyan + purple in, then go ahead. Because all those things are just straight out better than before, and talking about changing them back is useless.

 

[Stassin]

In any case not everyone agrees to a single set of ideas for changing this saber system, so whatever does happen will be that which is cared for and pushed forward the most actively.

 

[andrew]

i have mixed feelings about the current implementation of pblocking. i feel ridiculous swinging my mouse around to hit the pblock zones, but i think its great that there is thought to what swings someone is going to do during a combo to prevent pblocks, or if they stop early and reset etc. i love that it now has a clear and intuitive method to doing it, alongside all the other indicators the devs added to make dueling less of a mystical and religious experience

mb2 dueling has for as long as ive been playing always had the problem that many of the necessary mechanics for dueling at a high level being completely unintuitive and kept secret by a lot of better duelists. the ingame library + visual indicators of successful body hits and pblocks are the best thing for dueling the devs have ever added.

i think its both obvious that a) changes need to be made and b) the current system is a good foundation for those changes

to me yellow is what 'dueling' is, and you red and cyan and whatnot users are just playing open mode on duel servers, but its undeniable that right now the current system is unparalleled in style diversity and clarity of mechanics. any update to the saber system should use the current mechanics as a base, and build from there (unless an equivalently intuitive system can be substituted)

its pretty clear everyone in here has an agenda with their posts, especially if you already know their specific dueling style. saberists have always been the most reactive subcommunity in mb2, and even the devs that work on the saber systems engage in that.

 

[SeV]

First of all, I have had a guide on the saber system up since 2009 so the idea that high level duelists are 'hiding' knowledge for their own benefit is ridiculous. Secondly, you project your own idea on us and assume that we're all like you with a personal, egoistic agenda. My only agenda is to improve the saber system. Some people might object to ideas or changes based on their style of choice, but I think you have a strange and skewed image of dueling and duelists in MBII. To me it seems like you're just trying to justify why you're not as good as you'd like or smth like that. Please refrain from making garish and insulting assumptions and either provide usable feedback or go away. Your ignorant post is most disagreeable.

 

[andrew]

First of all, I have had a guide on the saber system up since 2009 so the idea that high level duelists are 'hiding' knowledge for their own benefit is ridiculous. Secondly, you project your own idea on us and assume that we're all like you with a personal, egoistic agenda. My only agenda is to improve the saber system. Some people might object to ideas or changes based on their style of choice, but I think you have a strange and skewed image of dueling and duelists in MBII. To me it seems like you're just trying to justify why you're not as good as you'd like or smth like that. Please refrain from making garish and insulting assumptions and either provide usable feedback or go away. Your ignorant post is most disagreeable.

i have no idea how someone can go 0-60 like this when i wasn't even talking about you

why would you assume i mean you, when you literally have a saber guide that i used to to help improve when i started playing again recently? do all posts appear as personal attacks in europe despite names not being named?

that was literally like 2 sentences total out of my entire post and you just went insane on me for it

edit: thanks for the guide btw its really good

 

[hleV]

What i'm saying is those arguments are the reason why you think the game is less fun. Yeah that's right, you liked it better before, because it was about bashing mouse 1 left-right thoughtlessly like a monkey;

Says who? I'm all for skillful play, as long as it's fun. I came to play, not work. CSGO is fun. UT4 is fun. MB2 was fun. I remember you mentioning muscle memory, as if it's a bad thing. It's not. Getting used to a game and have shit be natural for you is awesome, knowing how shit works but still having to go through an annoying process of executing it is not so much. I don't even know why am I explaining things to you. I guess it's not for you but to others, so they would understand that you are not correct and never were, and your smart responses are actually not smart at all, but a desperate attempt at justifying the mess you created. Not that your arguments are in any way valid, but how in the hell do they beat the fact that the game is now less fun?

well too bad, to some the definition of "better" suggests that you shouldn't be rewarded in-game by doing that, so the current system is much better.

So "better" and "fun" don't go along according to you, and you chose "better" when implementing the new system. Gotcha. MB2 is now like Blade Symphony: fun for a while until it gets boring. Never experienced this before in previous MB2 versions.

You don't like it ? Your problem

Great attitude there. You should consider becoming MB2 PR guy.

go play some other game where you can do what you like.

I had the game where I could do what I like. You took it away. For reasons that are good according to you only.

Your opinion is subjective as hell

YOUR opinion is subjective as hell. I suggest you take that to heart. I don't remember you consulting with the community before implementing this piece of shit of a system.

If you feel like being useful give tips on how to make the system "fun" again for you, while at the same time keeping the current PB, the current parries, the current number of combos in swings and cyan + purple in, then go ahead. Because all those things are just straight out better than before, and talking about changing them back is useless.

"Fun" and the shitty features of current version don't go hand in hand.

 

[Chorb]

In light of this negativity i felt like i should add my own 50 cents.

I feel like this saber system is in a good state at the moment since it incentives the user to try all styles rather than just yellow and pblock system is clear to understand. Perks give flavor to styles, since you have to approach duels whit every style differently.

Why should we make pblocks insanely hard like in the old days? I feel like the system should be easy to understand, hard to master like it is at the moment.
Pblocks for me are all about prediction and reactions. So to beat a pblocker you have to stay one step ahead of him and use unpredictable movements, never repeat same combos, fake attacks and so forth. Why should you get rewarded for spamming same a-d combo over and over. Any human being will learn your pattern very fast and that keeps the duel dynamic as both players adapt. So i belive this is where most skill shoudl show up, movement and prediction.

Infact i would love to see a tutorial on pblocks whit images or a video for every attack spot in the mb2 client itself, so every player woudl have a clear picture on how to use the system, to clear away the confusion for new people.

So keep up the good work devs, i find most of your arguments made sence. I can see you are trying to improve the game, even if not everyone agrees whit your ideas.


On sevs idea:
I felt slap was the most frustrating thing when i came back to mb2 and complained about it all the time. But it does have quite big downsides when somebody uses it on cooldown. For example, you cannot pblock during slap. So if you manage to swingblock a combo because he is too predictable, the slapper will be punished quite hard.

Duals / Cyan can be frustrating due to parry spam. But my problem whit it is not parry itself. Parry can be dealt whit well timed attacks.
The frustrating part is that dual user can spam its kata stagger 3 times in a row whit a knockback, while having no weak points. Maybe we shoudl put a cooldown between katas, or make them cost more FP.

One idea for improvement woudl be also to add a tooltip, when you hover over your picked saber styles in saber selection screen. Saber perks coudl be described there. The reason i feel this is necessary is because a lot of users are surprised when i tell them sabering perks exist.
Also, maybe we shoudl give yellow a perk and see how it goes. Yellow is in a strong state even whitout it, but worth a consideration.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

By the way, how does aiming to the ground to PB any low/middle swing make more "sense"/how is it more intuitive than having to aim where the saber is coming from (which it was always intended to be) ?

What it was always intended to be? News to me. All I heard for a decade was there is no master plan. Frankly, this whole pb system came out of left field to me. Never heard a whisper or a suggestion about it until it was implemented.

And please, wordplay. People aim where the saber is, not where it was. And yes, it made sense visually,
i.e. Saber placement & Saber collision = Visual and Realistic sense

Lets put cheat mode on and timescale it to 0.5 It's magically delicious. Ew, haven't practiced like that in a long time. It's the secret sauce to that extra spice some call practice. Or was it the other way around? Secret spice to the extra sauce....now you're just getting saucy!

Not to mention that nudge just got swallowed up and removed after RC1, which really destroyed a lot of the reactive gameplay of "playing off of your opponent's saber" and "turning your enemy's swings against them". IMO this is where a lot of the fun left the building.

My heart agrees. Even though those horrible sounds in that vid. make me recall Shao and his nuns. It touched off memories.

Getting used to a game and have shit be natural for you is awesome, knowing how shit works but still having to go through an annoying process of executing it is not so much.

Pretty much sums it up.

----------------------------------------------

Ideas = Undo

Or lets be creative and eliminate the static pb hitboxes/zones.
Instead, make them mobile, as in: Attach Pb hitbox to upper end of saber. Where it is is where it must be met to pb.
This is a completely new and original idea that has never been done before. Ever. I take full credit. Any negative commentary regarding it will be dismissed as jealousy and envy of my brilliance.

Good day.

edit;

Oh, and one last thing. All this hyping about the diversity of styles. What nonsense. You basically made blocking the same with every single style. How you block with blue is now identical with how you block with red.

Does that sit right with everybody? Over-simplified for one. And quite diminishing the potential of the different styles for another. Its like you cut out half the gameplay Woe to be dramatic.

Before:

Different Styles = Different attacks and differing means to block.

Now:

Different STyles = Different attacks. All blocking made simply the same.

Is that a pro or con? Vote!

Why should we make pblocks insanely hard like in the old days?

Insanely hard? Good one.

 

[SeV]

I've already said why it's an utterly crap idea to attach PB hitbox to lightsaber. Yawing properly will make it almost impossible to PB, which will result in people just swinging left and right while raping their mouse. So much for skill. Now you also mention the diversity of styles like it's a bad thing, but wtf honestly? You want yellow to be the only style or what? Changing the PB system to be different for each style is also out of the question. How much harder do you want to make it for new players to understand? The current PB system is good because it's simple to learn and hard to master. It forces people to use different attacks other than just left/right spam.

And yes, PBing in the old days used to be an insanely hard elite skill and even the best like sek and myself in those days, didn't manage to block consistenly. Why? Because it was much, much easier to just spam, dodge and yaw your way to victory, throwing in some red nudges etc. The system we have now allows for more skill, but it still has a bunch of problems I've made suggestions trying to fix.

Anyway, perhaps since you're American you have no idea how PB used to be? I never saw alot of American yawers back in the day, and what they did was just aim to one side of the model rather than flick and rape their mouse appropriately. (Btw I don't condone bestiality, poor mouse).

Also Chaos, I get teh impression you don't read this thread. Stassin and a number of others including me have already been over everything you've said in the above post. Re-read thread mby?