saber combat complexity

[DLEGION]

hi guys, i'm new to this forum but absolutely not to JK series, especially JKA, and i'll go straight to the point:
i love the idea behind movie battles, and the fact that it still have a community of players keeping JKA alive after so many years.
the only thing i really feel out of place is the saber combat system, that introduce (obviously from my point of view) a really unwanted and unneeded
complexity, taking away all the fun, and making of it a sort complex mathematical game.
the really good part of JKO and JKA and the real significant "step forward" from mysteries of the sith, for me was the >>simplification<< of actually a way more complex saber system! in fact with "fire key" coupled with just movements (would have been even better if done like warband, with mouse movements) you were able to perform a lot of different moves, and even chain them holding this "fire key", creating combos, all with just moving and a single key!!

for me, that was the genial part.

it make fall in love noobs and casual players, for its simplicity, and still forged veterans, who made an art out of this simple system.
coupled with force powers, it really was a unique experience, accessible to everyone, and enjoyable to everyone, from casual to master players.
i make no secret that i was (with dozen of friends) a forcemod III players, in the days when movie battles was still "one of the many mods out there", just for that reason.
sadly forcemod III and the other mods had not the good programmers that movie battles had, and died. Now that only movie battles stands still, and more importantly now that Disney and EA had shown how they intend to ruin the star wars videogames series forever (dont want to open a debate on this, but its clear that "skill" is an unknown word to them),
" the only hope " (like Leia said about Obi Wan) its you, movie battles guys.
i dont even try to suggest something in detail, i have faith you can do this far better than i can suggest, but please, meditate a bit about this:
BP, FF, FP, PB, ACC, semi-PB, ACM, ecc... all this actually distract from the game, take away immersion, force the players play "how the devs planned" and not "how they feel", force players to constantly thinking to a huge amount of factors, instead of focusing on enjoy the game itself.
for example, (i try be constructive) the best saber system i ever see in a videogame is the one in "mount&blade: warband".
attack key, block key, mouse for directions. over.
...and with just that, you can hold, feint, chamber-block ecc, i only imagine the possibilities of merging a system like that with JKA styles and force powers! ! !
i really hope this topic will help to make this great mod enjoyable to many other players that will otherwise fall in the "EA traps for noobs".
thanks for reading, hope you not hate, i writed with the best hopes in my mind, good bye.

 

[jewbacca]

Well, nothing is simple
You just want mb2 to be more accessible for new players, more easy to learn & hard to master thing, right? I bet developers want this too. However it might not be entirely possible without taking away some "gameplay deepness" in the process. I would not wish that to happen. Uh.

force players to constantly thinking to a huge amount of factors

Some players (me included) want this stuff. This is what makes mb2 a perfect game for me.

You mentioned warband? Its not a bad game, I enjoy dueling there as well. But lack of deepness make it very repetative on the higher levels of skill. Watch this:

For me it looks like it wouldn't hurt warband to have some more advanced mechanics. Really.
Or no. Let warband stay warband and mb2 stay mb2.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also,
Accessibility for new players doesn't have to do anything with complexity. Let me put two examples here:
1. Quake: very simple and understandable - you just pickup weapons, run and shoot. Guess what? New players gonna have a hard time there.
2. DotA: It's a complex thing, all those numbers to remember, heroes to master. But learning curve is so much more managable that you really can't compare it to quake or mb2

 

[DLEGION]

yep, i understand your point of view.
maybe you are right... its just matter of tastes...
warband has a serious deepness in its combat style, absolutely not obvious to a not trained eye, but i scored some kills on tobi, M and many others champions, and i can swear to you that there is a HUGE complexity behind every move, every angle, every step.
its just that in movie battles it feels to me like they wanted to "rationalize" it with cold numbers like BP, PB ecc
in warband there is a perfect timed block, from the correct angle, that gives you the opportunity for a deadly fast counter attack, its just that there's no match in it, just art.
anyway, forgive me, its just that i loved JKA, and i really wished to see it in a new spring, and to me looked like a missed opportunity with this combat system, to make it clear, i like, really like deepness, is useless overcomplicating thing that really hate.
for example "chivalry" has a key to swing, a key to thrust, a key to overhead. to my eyes its overcomplicating things.
i just tried to point out that particular point of view, with the hope in mind to add even more deepness to combat while simplifyng the info on screen.
just my point of view, peace eh

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

Ah, the typical wet noodle "I'm new and have no idea what I'm talking about" post.

 

[Jaikanatar]

Just as Jewie said, many people enjoy the complexity of the system and the many factors that go with it. It sets a really high skill ceiling which I understand can be frustrating for a casual player, but is really rewarding to the player who puts time and effort in.

I would argue that at a casual player can still survive and have a blast in MBII. If they come across a Jedi/Sith who has a really good grasp of how it all works, well then they best not face them alone. Thats the beauty of the shark tank.

 

[DLEGION]

i appreciate every answers, but you guys are focusing answers on the wrong direction.
personally, i really like the "complexity of the system" too, in the meaning you give to that words, here in MBII like in any other game.
English is not my first language, so maybe its just me expressing myself in a wrong way.
i searched for more complexity back in the days with forcemod III, like i still search in ACE3 for ARMA3, or DCS and so on.
the real point i was trying to cast light onto, was about a sort of "more simple interface" (even if its not the correct definition, may help you guys to understand it), not sure how define it....a sort of "simple to use , hard to master", ....kind of "more an art, less a science", i give a raw example: like play no HUD at all.
BP can be there, but you have to "feel" them, thats what warband is like at high level, and is far more complex play with no certain information, like it is in real life, and you have to keep your focus up to 100% every single instant, never shut your eyelids in the wrong moment or you're dead.
still not sure to have explained my point, hope someone get the meaning i wish to give it.

@pelmeņu lauks : as i stated i'm obviously new to MBII, thats just because back in the days, i choosed to play forcemod III, that was way more fast,complex,and brutal, so maybe the problem is the opposite you think of. In fact my problem with MBII is that i find it slow,clumsy, full of bars that just delay the slay! My point was about make MBII more slender, faster, NOT simplify the deepness of the combat system ! !
Anyway...i honestly think a fresh point of view outside the veteran community, can not hurt anyway, but maybe can help open the way to more users, that in my opinion are always a good addition. fear of the change is really common, but i still remember a time when there was no MBII, and everyone was playing "vanilla" JKO happily (not JKA, with dual and staff, JKO with just one single saber for all), the community was huge and that lead to the creation of the custom maps and then the many mods that were played in the good old day....and now that i see only MBII, my hope was just to not lose also it to the wages of time, because no replacement will come out any soon.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

Mb2 isn't Warband, just saying

Anyway, there's a big sabering overhaul coming, so stick around, maybe you'll like it

 

[Jaikanatar]

I would say that with the acm and bp management system, there is certianly intuition. I could play with no HUD, and still feel when my opponent is winning or losing based on many things:

Their body language, are they retreating? Are they pressing forward? Are their attacks controlled and confident, are they desperate and sloppy?

Or the amount of strikes I've landed that were bodyhits vs the amount they've landed. Am I landing more halfswings than them? Then I have the upper hand.

Subtle things like that definitely play into the intuition aspect you're mentioning. However, these are things that you start to pick up on after you've become quite experienced at the game. So from a new player's perspective, I can see how that might be frustrating and appear to not be intuitive at first.

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

i still remember a time when there was no MBII

Except MBII was made for people who wanted a more complex dueling system than JKA.

 

[A Potato]

*facepalm*

 

[Remalus]

hi guys, i'm new to this forum but absolutely not to JK series, especially JKA, and i'll go straight to the point:
i love the idea behind movie battles, and the fact that it still have a community of players keeping JKA alive after so many years.
the only thing i really feel out of place is the saber combat system, that introduce (obviously from my point of view) a really unwanted and unneeded
complexity, taking away all the fun, and making of it a sort complex mathematical game.
the really good part of JKO and JKA and the real significant "step forward" from mysteries of the sith, for me was the >>simplification<< of actually a way more complex saber system! in fact with "fire key" coupled with just movements (would have been even better if done like warband, with mouse movements) you were able to perform a lot of different moves, and even chain them holding this "fire key", creating combos, all with just moving and a single key!!

for me, that was the genial part.

it make fall in love noobs and casual players, for its simplicity, and still forged veterans, who made an art out of this simple system.
coupled with force powers, it really was a unique experience, accessible to everyone, and enjoyable to everyone, from casual to master players.
i make no secret that i was (with dozen of friends) a forcemod III players, in the days when movie battles was still "one of the many mods out there", just for that reason.
sadly forcemod III and the other mods had not the good programmers that movie battles had, and died. Now that only movie battles stands still, and more importantly now that Disney and EA had shown how they intend to ruin the star wars videogames series forever (dont want to open a debate on this, but its clear that "skill" is an unknown word to them),
" the only hope " (like Leia said about Obi Wan) its you, movie battles guys.
i dont even try to suggest something in detail, i have faith you can do this far better than i can suggest, but please, meditate a bit about this:
BP, FF, FP, PB, ACC, semi-PB, ACM, ecc... all this actually distract from the game, take away immersion, force the players play "how the devs planned" and not "how they feel", force players to constantly thinking to a huge amount of factors, instead of focusing on enjoy the game itself.
for example, (i try be constructive) the best saber system i ever see in a videogame is the one in "mount&blade: warband".
attack key, block key, mouse for directions. over.
...and with just that, you can hold, feint, chamber-block ecc, i only imagine the possibilities of merging a system like that with JKA styles and force powers! ! !
i really hope this topic will help to make this great mod enjoyable to many other players that will otherwise fall in the "EA traps for noobs".
thanks for reading, hope you not hate, i writed with the best hopes in my mind, good bye.

It's good that it's difficult because it adds depth. And if you get involved in the community, it takes a measly week to get good at the basics, given you have a good teacher or read up on a good guide.

 

[RC-Delta]

It's good that it's difficult because it adds depth. And if you get involved in the community, it takes a measly week to get good at the basics,
given you have a good teacher or read up on a good guide.

>logs in to see new posts
>sees like 15 new posts by same guy
Ggnore

 

[Remalus]

>logs in to see new posts
>sees like 15 new posts by same guy
Ggnore

never realized how much was going on in the mb2 forum lol

 

[SK5]

never realized how much was going on in the mb2 forum lol

it was probably better that way

 

[Tempest]

Except MBII was made for people who wanted a more complex dueling system than JKA.

Dueling was complex in the old days and there weren't even mechanics like ACC/ACM. I think that's the main issue that's being pointed at in this thread. There's so much convolution that just adds complexity, rather than good depth (not that there isn't some depth because of ACM, but it's caused most of the rest of the system to be watered down and feel like fighting with wet noodles).