Saber changes 2018 edition

[Stassin]

I believe the upcoming Saber vs Gun changes are being done very well by Tempest & the mb2 team and that's great. We can expect a refreshing patch in that regard.

Which leaves us with slightly more complicated, and controversial, Saber vs Saber gameplay tweaks. I'm not sure what is the state on that, there are multiple versions of it internally.

Regardless i wish to restate what i believe are core directions that need to be taken, and elaborate a little bit on them, as well as discussing a few more, less crucial tweaks. All these tweaks take the current public build as reference.



Core directions:

• Either remove ACM and ACC entirely, or:
  • Revert ACM to a similar state to pre-v1.1: fast styles start gaining ACM at 8 ACC, medium styles 6 ACC, strong styles 4 ACC. Each ACM point gives a 1.3x multiplier to all BP drains (so 1 ACM = 1.3x, 2 ACM = (1.3)^2, 3 ACM = (1.3)^3 etc., the max being 9 ACM = (1.3)^9 = 10.6 - for the record in the old system 9 ACM had a 12x multiplier and the progression was harsher like 1.5x, 3x etc.).
  • ACC is strictly only gained (+1) and lost (-1) on bodyhits (first bodyhits of a chain only). Due to fast styles being different (blue is faster, cyan was FA-only) compared to the old system, they should have the single exception of losing 2 ACC when bodyhit by medium or strong styles.
• Remove all perks, meaning that the differences between styles in all situations should be only ever be the stance animation, AP, BP, HP dmg, swing animations & speeds, chaining differences (max swings in a chain and chaining direction restrictions), and ACM as described above. Nothing else, nothing tied to mblocks nor parries nor PBs nor semi-PBs nor NB nor force powers nor being knocked down or anything.
• Reintroduce old chaining direction restrictions (minimum of 3 quadrants for Red and Cyan, 2 quadrants for all other styles).
  
• Replace perks with more extreme AP/BP differences, similar to the old system (pre-v1.1). In short, the AP/BP numbers for styles should be along the lines of: Yellow 12/56 (unchanged from old system), Blue 6/60, Cyan 8/52, Red 18/50 (great AP without nudge, and still decent BP), Purple 25/35 (harder to PB than red because of faster starting swings and softer chaining restriction, devastating AP, horrible BP, just like the old system but less extreme - it was 30/30), Duals 11/54 (powerhouse with a slight BP weakness), Staff 10/64 (tank with still decent power). These are somewhat crucial, much like removing ACM, in order to encourage style switching again.
• Parries deal 20% of bodyhit damage, semi-PBs 50%, NBs 20% (if NB is introduced). They should all use the same calculations as bodyhits and just apply a factor to it, so that all situational modifiers are taken into account (for example if A and B are parrying each other, but A is walking and B running, B will deal less BP dmg because running swings are weaker).
• Holding mouse 1 drains 4 BP per second (i.e. 1 BP per 250ms, just a simple drain activated when pressing mouse 1 with a 250ms debounce timer, not tied to swings or anything, only tied to pressing mouse 1), replacing current swing drains. This brings back the skill requirement to tap mouse 1 in order to optimize your BP.
• Reduce overall BP regeneration and increase overall BP drains. Meaning compared to current standards, so that BP drains are more crippling and lasting, and fights quicker and harsher. Can't say an accurate number as i'm not coding and testing, but BP regen should be 1.5x lower than current at most, and BP drains something like 1.3x. The current BP regen if i'm not mistaken is 5BP per 400ms for Defense 2 and 3BP per 400ms for Defense 1: so it should be 4BP and 2BP respectively.

Less critical tweaks but still important (mix of my own ideas and ideas taken from sev's original post in I haven't played MBII consistently for 3 years, here's why. that i believe are great):

• Remove anything related to perfect parry.
• I know some people don't like the idea, but i see little reason not to allow semi-PB in all types of interrupts and also while running, especially if overall swing drains are going to be quite high and regeneration low. It purely increases the skillcap and allows you to further outskill people 1vX.
• Mblocks having an instacounter is good as a flavor to increase the skillcap but the instacounter should have no bonus damage, and also the mblock shouldn't stop the attacker's chain.
• Short jumps with +use should cost no BP. Sev's idea, i think it subtly favors more jumping which would actually be great, as mb2 already totally discourages it in saber duels.
• Some more of sev's changes. I'm unsure what the current public values are, but crouching should definitely at least reduce your dmg by 50% and increase your dmg taken by 50%, if not more. For jumping attacks there should be a risk vs reward factor, taking 30% more dmg while in the air but dealing 10% more dmg too.
• Running attacks should deal at least -20% dmg, swingblocks normal dmg and walking non-swingblocks 10% more dmg. I know sev wants swingblocks to deal more dmg than non-swingblocks but i don't think anyone can agree with the reasoning behind that; yes theoretically speaking it takes more mechanical skill to swingblock, but the idea of swingblock is tied with "a more careful attack" which protects you against slap and mblock. For above average duelists where people have no trouble with the pure mechanics of swingblocking, it's actually a skillful decision-making flavor to purposely choose to not swingblock when you know you don't have to fear a slap or a mblock.
• Finally i would like to see the point cost system changed so that jedi/sith are forced to buy yellow as their first style. This allows in particular to decrease the overall costs, each style could be 6 points instead of 8. Yellow itself should be 6 points, remember how in the old system you had both yellow and slow blue (useful for chasing other saberists and taking BP damage) for only 8 points. Overall i'd make Medium styles 6/4/4, Fast styles 6/0/4, Strong styles 6/0/4, provided that you are forced to buy medium styles lvl 1 to unlock fast styles and strong styles.

If i were the one coding, i would have a ton of smaller tweaks including more technical and non-visible things, but there is no point to detail these things as a mere spectator, the one implementing the changes has to choose and test these things.

The tweaks above are more general things that i believe would improve the system by a tremendous margin, regardless of what details are under the hood. And i'd like to believe i'm not alone in liking these general directions.

 

[Stassin]

No, the slowdown Tempest has added makes it so when the attacker attacks, he is slowed by 15%. This means that you can't hit and then run out of range instantly, there is always a window where you can be countered unless you use clever footwork/play with good range.

On top of the slowdown you get when swinging (except with blue/cyan straight swings), a slowdown after having hit ? Blergh. So basically you get punished for getting the better timing and landing a hit. I might be biased on this because for years i've specialised in always rushing and trying to punish ppl who hit & run, so i believe it's a very interesting challenge and it would be horrible to basically remove it. At first like everyone i was frustrated when i encountered this, but i just took it as an obstacle to overcome and after a while thought it's extremely fun. And it works, when you get to the point where you can catch someone suddenly jumping away by instantly jumping after him and swinging; same thing with running. No way i'll agree with any mechanic as blatantly punishing as this, it reduces the skillcap for engaging alot. Buffing force focus against runners, encouraging style switching, and having more punishing parries (especially with stronger styles like red) is more than enough.

 

[noel]

On top of the slowdown you get when swinging (except with blue/cyan straight swings), a slowdown after having hit ? Blergh. So basically you get punished for getting the better timing and landing a hit. I might be biased on this because for years i've specialised in always rushing and trying to punish ppl who hit & run, so i believe it's a very interesting challenge and it would be horrible to basically remove it. At first like everyone i was frustrated when i encountered this, but i just took it as an obstacle to overcome and after a while thought it's extremely fun. And it works, when you get to the point where you can catch someone suddenly jumping away by instantly jumping after him and swinging; same thing with running. No way i'll agree with any mechanic as blatantly punishing as this, it reduces the skillcap for engaging alot. Buffing force focus against runners, encouraging style switching, and having more punishing parries (especially with stronger styles like red) is more than enough.

you can still use good movement though, it doesn't affect walking speed only running, like I say it takes a lot more skill to do it that way than it does to dodge at full speed

 

[Stassin]

you can still use good movement though, it doesn't affect walking speed only running, like I say it takes a lot more skill to do it that way than it does to dodge at full speed

It wouldn't take more skill, it would just force players to have less mobile fights, with much more walking and more facehugging; that's indeed harder to do than hit and run, but already exists and happens alot, it would just happen alot more if not almost all the time. Which wouldn't be great for open mode, given how it's already a general opinion that the current system is way too focused around the 1v1 dueling scenario.

 

[SeV]

It wouldn't take more skill, it would just force players to have less mobile fights, with much more walking and more facehugging; that's indeed harder to do than hit and run, but already exists and happens alot, it would just happen alot more if not almost all the time. Which wouldn't be great for open mode, given how it's already a general opinion that the current system is way too focused around the 1v1 dueling scenario.

It's probably an experimental change added last minute. I don't think much thought went into it. 1v2 open mode etc is rip.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Either remove ACM and ACC entirely, or:Revert ACM to a similar state to pre-v1.1: fast styles start gaining ACM at 8 ACC, medium styles 6 ACC, strong styles 4 ACC. Each ACM point gives a 1.3x multiplier to all BP drains (so 1 ACM = 1.3x, 2 ACM = (1.3)^2, 3 ACM = (1.3)^3 etc., the max being 9 ACM = (1.3)^9 = 10.6 - for the record in the old system 9 ACM had a 12x multiplier and the progression was harsher like 1.5x, 3x etc.).
ACC is strictly only gained (+1) and lost (-1) on bodyhits (first bodyhits of a chain only). Due to fast styles being different (blue is faster, cyan was FA-only) compared to the old system, they should have the single exception of losing 2 ACC when bodyhit by medium or strong styles.

I don't mind ACM being removed if damages are high, and there is a way to keep people from resetting duels, however I'm not sure if I like the idea of it being reworked. I'd have to see, it doesn't sound awful, but it doesn't sound amazing either.

• Remove all perks, meaning that the differences between styles in all situations should be only ever be the stance animation, AP, BP, HP dmg, swing animations & speeds, chaining differences (max swings in a chain and chaining direction restrictions), and ACM as described above. Nothing else, nothing tied to mblocks nor parries nor PBs nor semi-PBs nor NB nor force powers nor being knocked down or anything.

Oh goody, so we get 7 flavors of the same style. No. I don't want your horrendously boring concept of how sabering should be. Perks are demonstrably fine if handled well and not like an ape trying to pet a chicken with a sledgehammer. You've never found that 'middle ground' with perks, they're either useless or ridiculously over-bearing, and instead of finding that middle ground you just decide to go 'screw it' and suggest removing everything that adds flavor to the styles. That will *Never* be a popular outlook.

• Reintroduce old chaining direction restrictions (minimum of 3 quadrants for Red and Cyan, 2 quadrants for all other styles).

I want swing direction restrictions from 1.3, I agree fully, they are necessary to reduce the amount of guessing in saber combat due to the insanely fast chaining speeds.

• Replace perks with more extreme AP/BP differences, similar to the old system (pre-v1.1). In short, the AP/BP numbers for styles should be along the lines of: Yellow 12/56 (unchanged from old system), Blue 6/60, Cyan 8/52, Red 18/50 (great AP without nudge, and still decent BP), Purple 25/35 (harder to PB than red because of faster starting swings and softer chaining restriction, devastating AP, horrible BP, just like the old system but less extreme - it was 30/30), Duals 11/54 (powerhouse with a slight BP weakness), Staff 10/64 (tank with still decent power). These are somewhat crucial, much like removing ACM, in order to encourage style switching again.

Or you could have those massive differences *with* perks to further distinguish each style, and you know, make them unique.

• Parries deal 20% of bodyhit damage, semi-PBs 50%, NBs 20% (if NB is introduced). They should all use the same calculations as bodyhits and just apply a factor to it, so that all situational modifiers are taken into account (for example if A and B are parrying each other, but A is walking and B running, B will deal less BP dmg because running swings are weaker).

No semi PBs, no NBs, and I can only get behind parry damage if swingblock is nerfed. Adding parry damage doesn't stop parry spam, it just makes it more annoying when that parry spam reduces your BP substantially. We've been down this road multiple times and every time it results in the same issue: Trading.

Swingblock allows for parry-spam to be more prevalent. People at the highest level who abuse parry spamming do so with swingblock/crouch/shadow swinging to buffer them, if slap was able to prevent them from abusing parrying then the problem would be solved immediately, and then it is simply a matter of balancing slap vs combo damage.

• Holding mouse 1 drains 4 BP per second (i.e. 1 BP per 250ms, just a simple drain activated when pressing mouse 1 with a 250ms debounce timer, not tied to swings or anything, only tied to pressing mouse 1), replacing current swing drains. This brings back the skill requirement to tap mouse 1 in order to optimize your BP.

God no. We've done this before, Stassin. No one wants to *die* from their offense. There is no skill requirement in tapping, it's just something you acquire through minor practice. Stop with fake arbitrary skill floors and INCREASE the skill ceiling.

• Reduce overall BP regeneration and increase overall BP drains. Meaning compared to current standards, so that BP drains are more crippling and lasting, and fights quicker and harsher. Can't say an accurate number as i'm not coding and testing, but BP regen should be 1.5x lower than current at most, and BP drains something like 1.3x. The current BP regen if i'm not mistaken is 5BP per 400ms for Defense 2 and 3BP per 400ms for Defense 1: so it should be 4BP and 2BP respectively.

Faster resource regeneration benefits skilled players more than it benefits bad players. This is a simple statistical fact evidenced by almost every competitive game in existence. The higher the damage, the faster the resource regeneration, and the more volatile the environment, the more consistent good players will perform. As soon as you lower the regen, you put a finite limit on how well a good player can do against X number of opponents, regardless of skill. That timer between duels harms a good player.

I favor fast BP regeneration and *very* high damage. (1.3)

• Remove anything related to perfect parry.

The original idea behind perfect parry was to add more depth to the parry system, so that parry damage might one day be a possibility while making parries actually require some form of skill. The idea wasn't fully explored, but it is still very much so a possibility. It shows me more of your lack of imagination Stassin when you just randomly club things without actually exploring their potential.

• I know some people don't like the idea, but i see little reason not to allow semi-PB in all types of interrupts and also while running, especially if overall
• swing drains are going to be quite high and regeneration low. It purely increases the skillcap and allows you to further outskill people 1vX.

Because it was cancer when it was tried. No one liked it, in any instance of it ever being used.

• Mblocks having an instacounter is good as a flavor to increase the skillcap but the instacounter should have no bonus damage, and also the mblock shouldn't stop the attacker's chain.

No, it doesn't increase the skill cap, it lowers it. Most Mblock counters are accidental. It favors defense and punishes offense even if the player attacking was swingblocking. There is no real counter to it except slow/fast yaws. It means that accidental mblocks are lethal, as you cannot avoid the insta-swing off of being randomly disarmed, even if you react perfectly. Mblock counter needs to go, the only people that like it are people who rely upon it, and I know a few.

• Short jumps with +use should cost no BP. Sev's idea, i think it subtly favors more jumping which would actually be great, as mb2 already totally discourages it in saber duels.

NO. NO. NO. NO. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE I HAVE TO FIGHT WHO JUMP AWAY/AROUND CONSTANTLY? It is annoying. If anything jumping needs to be punished more, and the max jump height before FP usage needs to be lowered significantly. Unless you want to make Yoda's Ataru style in the game (with a PEEEERK) then I see no reason for encouraging the annoying nonsense of trying to play 'Hit the Pinata' with a jumping clown with 0 BP.

• Some more of sev's changes. I'm unsure what the current public values are, but crouching should definitely at least reduce your dmg by 50% and increase your dmg taken by 50%, if not more. For jumping attacks there should be a risk vs reward factor, taking 30% more dmg while in the air but dealing 10% more dmg too.

I agree, but I'm against arbitrary bonuses to jumping.

• Running attacks should deal at least -20% dmg, swingblocks normal dmg and walking non-swingblocks 10% more dmg. I know sev wants swingblocks to deal more dmg than non-swingblocks but i don't think anyone can agree with the reasoning behind that; yes theoretically speaking it takes more mechanical skill to swingblock, but the idea of swingblock is tied with "a more careful attack" which protects you against slap and mblock. For above average duelists where people have no trouble with the pure mechanics of swingblocking, it's actually a skillful decision-making flavor to purposely choose to not swingblock when you know you don't have to fear a slap or a mblock.

It does not take more skill to swingblock. It's just muscle memory. Stop it with your swingblock buffs when I see more mindless people abusing swingblock than I do skillful players. Do you know what the meta is right now? It's to swingblock 4 hit counter-combos and tap crouch during startups so you can't be slapped, and trade your opponent to death. It's obnoxious, and it needs to die, buffing swingblock just makes it more prevalent.

I would rather fight 10 shadow-swingers than 1 counter combo spammer, it's just unpleasant. Although shadow swinging should be nerfed via the removal of ACM. (So long as there is a way to keep people from running/resetting fights)

• Finally i would like to see the point cost system changed so that jedi/sith are forced to buy yellow as their first style. This allows in particular to decrease the overall costs, each style could be 6 points instead of 8. Yellow itself should be 6 points, remember how in the old system you had both yellow and slow blue (useful for chasing other saberists and taking BP damage) for only 8 points. Overall i'd make Medium styles 6/4/4, Fast styles 6/0/4, Strong styles 6/0/4, provided that you are forced to buy medium styles lvl 1 to unlock fast styles and strong styles.

I agree with reducing style costs, but I don't agree with making yellow a mandatory style. Yellow obsession is annoying to me when you can balance all of the styles and get more variety.

If i were the one coding, i would have a ton of smaller tweaks including more technical and non-visible things, but there is no point to detail these things as a mere spectator, the one implementing the changes has to choose and test these things.

The tweaks above are more general things that i believe would improve the system by a tremendous margin, regardless of what details are under the hood. And i'd like to believe i'm not alone in liking these general directions.

Most of your changes would not improve the system, but rather make it incredibly boring.

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

The video you posted clearly shows us that Aayla Secura is a padawan and don't know yet how to catch that bastard

Oh my god Assuming somebody's skill from a 7 second gyazo snap, that's great. Then I guess it's safe to assume that you're complete dog shit based on this single screenshot alone:

Back to the topic:

 

[Stassin]

It does not take more skill to swingblock. It's just muscle memory.

It does not take more skill to swingblock. It's just muscle memory.

It does not take more skill to swingblock. It's just muscle memory.

 

[President Bossk]

Something needs to be done about people running from duels too. Maybe make them easier to force focus with low BP? Duels drag out forever because people keep running away.

 

[jewbacca]

Proposed changes are good, nothing much to add. Completely agree with everything.

On a side note, I somehow knew we're gonna see here Achilles saying ridiculous stuff left and right. I'm actually writing this post just to disagree with his stuff. Since... you know, if there's no objections it might seem like everyone agrees with his point of view / vision. Just saying.

 

[Chocorope]

Proposed changes are good, nothing much to add. Completely agree with everything.

On a side note, I somehow knew we're gonna see here Achilles saying ridiculous stuff left and right. I'm actually writing this post just to disagree with his stuff. Since... you know, if there's no objections it might seem like everyone agrees with his point of view / vision. Just saying.

Not all of what he's saying is wrong too, I don't agree with it all, but its not all false, or bad.

And don't get me wrong... I'm not saying this because we're friend. If anything, we're actually in conflict, and not going along together.

But I believe it's not a reason to discard all of his ideas just because I don't love him, or he doesn't love me, or even respect me.

For the sake of this game we have to analyse all of the proposed ideas regardless of how we feel about each others, if we can't make this mature move, the game is already doomed to a vicious circle of never ending changes, and lack of any innovations.

 

[hleV]

I only disagree with runhits dealing less damage than non-runhits. Running during a duel is already a big enough risk to not have a damage reward for it. Not to mention that it wouldn't make any sense for a runhit to have less impact than a hit from stationary position or while walking.

 

[SeV]

I only disagree with runhits dealing less damage than non-runhits. Running during a duel is already a big enough risk to not have a damage reward for it. Not to mention that it wouldn't make any sense for a runhit to have less impact than a hit from stationary position or while walking.

The opposite is true if you know anything about sword fighting. Your swing doesn't gain momentum if you dash and slash. You stand still, take a stance, swing and step in a controlled manner. Pick up a stick and start jogging, then swing it. It's not the same.

Besides, running during a duel should be punished with the same kind of philosophy as crouching during a duel should. It even encourages skill because it means you can run then right before impact, swingblock to slow yourself down and avoid the penalty, giving skilled players the ability to differentiate themselves another way. It's about nerfing cheese + giving skilled ppl something to learn and train rather than flattening out the system and making it so every noob with half a brain that understands ACM can be on a high level without knowing the basics.

 

[President Bossk]

The opposite is true if you know anything about sword fighting. Your swing doesn't gain momentum if you dash and slash. You stand still, take a stance, swing and step in a controlled manner. Pick up a stick and start jogging, then swing it. It's not the same.

Besides, running during a duel should be punished with the same kind of philosophy as crouching during a duel should. It even encourages skill because it means you can run then right before impact, swingblock to slow yourself down and avoid the penalty, giving skilled players the ability to differentiate themselves another way. It's about nerfing cheese + giving skilled ppl something to learn and train rather than flattening out the system and making it so every noob with half a brain that understands ACM can be on a high level without knowing the basics.

What about fencing though?

 

[Hessu]

I only disagree with runhits dealing less damage than non-runhits. Running during a duel is already a big enough risk to not have a damage reward for it. Not to mention that it wouldn't make any sense for a runhit to have less impact than a hit from stationary position or while walking.

lol, running has a huge reward with minium risks, you get acm and fuck up their timing easily. You are just saying that because your style will be nerfed

 

[Shilling]

fuck reading all this

 

[hleV]

The opposite is true if you know anything about sword fighting. Your swing doesn't gain momentum if you dash and slash. You stand still, take a stance, swing and step in a controlled manner. Pick up a stick and start jogging, then swing it. It's not the same.

Besides, running during a duel should be punished with the same kind of philosophy as crouching during a duel should. It even encourages skill because it means you can run then right before impact, swingblock to slow yourself down and avoid the penalty, giving skilled players the ability to differentiate themselves another way. It's about nerfing cheese + giving skilled ppl something to learn and train rather than flattening out the system and making it so every noob with half a brain that understands ACM can be on a high level without knowing the basics.

StandingSwingSpeed = 0 * SwingSpeed;
WalkingSwingSpeed = WalkingSpeed * SwingSpeed;
RunningSwingSpeed = RunningSpeed * SwingSpeed;

If the impact of your stick swing while running is worse than while standing then it's your fault. Do you jump farther from a stationary position than while running, too?

 

[SeV]

StandingSwingSpeed = 0 * SwingSpeed;
WalkingSwingSpeed = WalkingSpeed * SwingSpeed;
RunningSwingSpeed = RunningSpeed * SwingSpeed;

If the impact of your stick swing while running is worse than while standing then it's your fault. Do you jump farther from a stationary position than while running, too?

You're more retarded than I gave you credit for. I concede.

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

RunningSwingSpeed = RunningSpeed * SwingSpeed;

Then what if you're swinging at your opponent while running AWAY? Didn't account for that one, did you? Besides,

 

[hleV]

You're more retarded than I gave you credit for. I concede.

Calling people retarded with no way of backing it up certainly makes you look smart!

Then what if you're swinging at your opponent while running AWAY? Didn't account for that one, did you? Besides,

I don't have to provide examples for all case scenarios to get the idea across. Okay some people may need them, but I'm not to deal with them.
Also funny for you to use that retarded quote about punching. In my previous post I asked if SeV jumps farther from a stationary position than while running. Apparently yes, and I'm retarded.
This is a video game. With video game characters not affected by stamina and other factors. Video game characters that don't get tired and can run and swing 24/7. Whatever swing one can pull off while stationary or walking, has the potential to be more devastating with more momentum added to it. Moving faster will add to that momentum, as factors that would prevent that aren't present in the game.

 

[ﾠﾠﾠﾠk4]

Can you people fix the spamming issue with blue already and mblock abuse then end up with wasting more time on sabering, kisses.