Saber changes 2018 edition

[Stassin]

I believe the upcoming Saber vs Gun changes are being done very well by Tempest & the mb2 team and that's great. We can expect a refreshing patch in that regard.

Which leaves us with slightly more complicated, and controversial, Saber vs Saber gameplay tweaks. I'm not sure what is the state on that, there are multiple versions of it internally.

Regardless i wish to restate what i believe are core directions that need to be taken, and elaborate a little bit on them, as well as discussing a few more, less crucial tweaks. All these tweaks take the current public build as reference.



Core directions:

• Either remove ACM and ACC entirely, or:
  • Revert ACM to a similar state to pre-v1.1: fast styles start gaining ACM at 8 ACC, medium styles 6 ACC, strong styles 4 ACC. Each ACM point gives a 1.3x multiplier to all BP drains (so 1 ACM = 1.3x, 2 ACM = (1.3)^2, 3 ACM = (1.3)^3 etc., the max being 9 ACM = (1.3)^9 = 10.6 - for the record in the old system 9 ACM had a 12x multiplier and the progression was harsher like 1.5x, 3x etc.).
  • ACC is strictly only gained (+1) and lost (-1) on bodyhits (first bodyhits of a chain only). Due to fast styles being different (blue is faster, cyan was FA-only) compared to the old system, they should have the single exception of losing 2 ACC when bodyhit by medium or strong styles.
• Remove all perks, meaning that the differences between styles in all situations should be only ever be the stance animation, AP, BP, HP dmg, swing animations & speeds, chaining differences (max swings in a chain and chaining direction restrictions), and ACM as described above. Nothing else, nothing tied to mblocks nor parries nor PBs nor semi-PBs nor NB nor force powers nor being knocked down or anything.
• Reintroduce old chaining direction restrictions (minimum of 3 quadrants for Red and Cyan, 2 quadrants for all other styles).
  
• Replace perks with more extreme AP/BP differences, similar to the old system (pre-v1.1). In short, the AP/BP numbers for styles should be along the lines of: Yellow 12/56 (unchanged from old system), Blue 6/60, Cyan 8/52, Red 18/50 (great AP without nudge, and still decent BP), Purple 25/35 (harder to PB than red because of faster starting swings and softer chaining restriction, devastating AP, horrible BP, just like the old system but less extreme - it was 30/30), Duals 11/54 (powerhouse with a slight BP weakness), Staff 10/64 (tank with still decent power). These are somewhat crucial, much like removing ACM, in order to encourage style switching again.
• Parries deal 20% of bodyhit damage, semi-PBs 50%, NBs 20% (if NB is introduced). They should all use the same calculations as bodyhits and just apply a factor to it, so that all situational modifiers are taken into account (for example if A and B are parrying each other, but A is walking and B running, B will deal less BP dmg because running swings are weaker).
• Holding mouse 1 drains 4 BP per second (i.e. 1 BP per 250ms, just a simple drain activated when pressing mouse 1 with a 250ms debounce timer, not tied to swings or anything, only tied to pressing mouse 1), replacing current swing drains. This brings back the skill requirement to tap mouse 1 in order to optimize your BP.
• Reduce overall BP regeneration and increase overall BP drains. Meaning compared to current standards, so that BP drains are more crippling and lasting, and fights quicker and harsher. Can't say an accurate number as i'm not coding and testing, but BP regen should be 1.5x lower than current at most, and BP drains something like 1.3x. The current BP regen if i'm not mistaken is 5BP per 400ms for Defense 2 and 3BP per 400ms for Defense 1: so it should be 4BP and 2BP respectively.

Less critical tweaks but still important (mix of my own ideas and ideas taken from sev's original post in I haven't played MBII consistently for 3 years, here's why. that i believe are great):

• Remove anything related to perfect parry.
• I know some people don't like the idea, but i see little reason not to allow semi-PB in all types of interrupts and also while running, especially if overall swing drains are going to be quite high and regeneration low. It purely increases the skillcap and allows you to further outskill people 1vX.
• Mblocks having an instacounter is good as a flavor to increase the skillcap but the instacounter should have no bonus damage, and also the mblock shouldn't stop the attacker's chain.
• Short jumps with +use should cost no BP. Sev's idea, i think it subtly favors more jumping which would actually be great, as mb2 already totally discourages it in saber duels.
• Some more of sev's changes. I'm unsure what the current public values are, but crouching should definitely at least reduce your dmg by 50% and increase your dmg taken by 50%, if not more. For jumping attacks there should be a risk vs reward factor, taking 30% more dmg while in the air but dealing 10% more dmg too.
• Running attacks should deal at least -20% dmg, swingblocks normal dmg and walking non-swingblocks 10% more dmg. I know sev wants swingblocks to deal more dmg than non-swingblocks but i don't think anyone can agree with the reasoning behind that; yes theoretically speaking it takes more mechanical skill to swingblock, but the idea of swingblock is tied with "a more careful attack" which protects you against slap and mblock. For above average duelists where people have no trouble with the pure mechanics of swingblocking, it's actually a skillful decision-making flavor to purposely choose to not swingblock when you know you don't have to fear a slap or a mblock.
• Finally i would like to see the point cost system changed so that jedi/sith are forced to buy yellow as their first style. This allows in particular to decrease the overall costs, each style could be 6 points instead of 8. Yellow itself should be 6 points, remember how in the old system you had both yellow and slow blue (useful for chasing other saberists and taking BP damage) for only 8 points. Overall i'd make Medium styles 6/4/4, Fast styles 6/0/4, Strong styles 6/0/4, provided that you are forced to buy medium styles lvl 1 to unlock fast styles and strong styles.

If i were the one coding, i would have a ton of smaller tweaks including more technical and non-visible things, but there is no point to detail these things as a mere spectator, the one implementing the changes has to choose and test these things.

The tweaks above are more general things that i believe would improve the system by a tremendous margin, regardless of what details are under the hood. And i'd like to believe i'm not alone in liking these general directions.

 

[SeV]

• Replace perks with more extreme AP/BP differences, similar to the old system (pre-v1.1). In short, the AP/BP numbers for styles should be along the lines of: Yellow 12/56 (unchanged from old system), Blue 6/60, Cyan 8/52, Red 18/50 (great AP without nudge, and still decent BP), Purple 25/35 (harder to PB than red because of faster starting swings and softer chaining restriction, devastating AP, horrible BP, just like the old system but less extreme - it was 30/30), Duals 11/54 (powerhouse with a slight BP weakness), Staff 10/64 (tank with still decent power). These are somewhat crucial, much like removing ACM, in order to encourage style switching again.
• Parries deal 20% of bodyhit damage, semi-PBs 50%, NBs 20% (if NB is introduced). They should all use the same calculations as bodyhits and just apply a factor to it, so that all situational modifiers are taken into account (for example if A and B are parrying each other, but A is walking and B running, B will deal less BP dmg because running swings are weaker).
• Holding mouse 1 drains 4 BP per second (i.e. 1 BP per 250ms, just a simple drain activated when pressing mouse 1 with a 250ms debounce timer, not tied to swings or anything, only tied to pressing mouse 1), replacing current swing drains. This brings back the skill requirement to tap mouse 1 in order to optimize your BP.
• Reduce overall BP regeneration and increase overall BP drains. Meaning compared to current standards, so that BP drains are more crippling and lasting, and fights quicker and harsher. Can't say an accurate number as i'm not coding and testing, but BP regen should be 1.5x lower than current at most, and BP drains something like 1.3x. The current BP regen if i'm not mistaken is 5BP per 400ms for Defense 2 and 3BP per 400ms for Defense 1: so it should be 4BP and 2BP respectively.

Less critical tweaks but still important (mix of my own ideas and ideas taken from sev's original post in I haven't played MBII consistently for 3 years, here's why. that i believe are great):

• Remove anything related to perfect parry.
• I know some people don't like the idea, but i see little reason not to allow semi-PB in all types of interrupts and also while running, especially if overall swing drains are going to be quite high and regeneration low. It purely increases the skillcap and allows you to further outskill people 1vX.
• Mblocks having an instacounter is good as a flavor to increase the skillcap but the instacounter should have no bonus damage, and also the mblock shouldn't stop the attacker's chain.
• Short jumps with +use should cost no BP. Sev's idea, i think it subtly favors more jumping which would actually be great, as mb2 already totally discourages it in saber duels.
• Some more of sev's changes. I'm unsure what the current public values are, but crouching should definitely at least reduce your dmg by 50% and increase your dmg taken by 50%, if not more. For jumping attacks there should be a risk vs reward factor, taking 30% more dmg while in the air but dealing 10% more dmg too.
• Running attacks should deal at least -20% dmg, swingblocks normal dmg and walking non-swingblocks 10% more dmg. I know sev wants swingblocks to deal more dmg than non-swingblocks but i don't think anyone can agree with the reasoning behind that; yes theoretically speaking it takes more mechanical skill to swingblock, but the idea of swingblock is tied with "a more careful attack" which protects you against slap and mblock. For above average duelists where people have no trouble with the pure mechanics of swingblocking, it's actually a skillful decision-making flavor to purposely choose to not swingblock when you know you don't have to fear a slap or a mblock.
• Finally i would like to see the point cost system changed so that jedi/sith are forced to buy yellow as their first style. This allows in particular to decrease the overall costs, each style could be 6 points instead of 8. Yellow itself should be 6 points, remember how in the old system you had both yellow and slow blue (useful for chasing other saberists and taking BP damage) for only 8 points. Overall i'd make Medium styles 6/4/4, Fast styles 6/0/4, Strong styles 6/0/4, provided that you are forced to buy medium styles lvl 1 to unlock fast styles and strong styles.

And i'd like to believe i'm not alone in liking these general directions.

You're definitely not alone. I pretty much agree with everything barring a couple of things. Of particular import to reiterate for me is this.

* Holding mouse 1 drains 4 BP per second

Note: Flat drains are absolutely atrocious. My opinion of them has not changed and wont. Either the drains are too big, which means draining your own BP to attack, or they are too low, making them superfluous. Flat drains also invalidate tapping vs holding to a certain extent. I think we should bring back more skills related to BP management such as tapping vs holding now that ACM is going to go.

*Reduce overall BP regeneration and increase overall BP drains.

Note: Compared to public, the BP dmg should be raised, but I do not think it should be extremely big if the regen is curbed somewhat. I am of the same view as stassin, that BP regen should be slowed a bit and dmg should be adjusted to match so that you can defeat ppl quickly if they aren't good. It's a matter of numbers tweaking, but the general gameplay direction should not be not high damage, high bp regen, but reasonable damage and slightly slower bp regen. Current beta has some mechanics in place to help facilitate a slower bp regen so I believe this would be the superior direction to go, rather than having stupidly large drains + high regen.

*Mblocks having an instacounter is good as a flavor to increase the skillcap but the instacounter should have no bonus damage, and also the mblock shouldn't stop the attacker's chain.

Note: I love the feeling of instacountering someone off of a disarm and I will have no problem with this existing if instacounters do not interrupt the opponents combo. The big thing, as you pointed out, is that Mblocks should not stop the attackers chain. I think this is crucial. Flow breaking mechanics like combo breaking is very bad for sabering, so I am sort of on the fence about insta counters. I am willing to try them out with a fixed mblock to see whether or not they will be obnoxious. If they disrupt the flow of the attacker and discourage him enough, then they should go, but otherwise they should be an available tool to help dispatch ppl you mblock more swiftly.

 

[MuscBodypillow]

As a noob/bad saberer there are some things I agree and some disagree.

I agree with:

• removing or altering ACM to make combat less of an ACC/ACM grind
• enabling more short jumps

What I disagree with:

• BP brain on mouse hold: IF it applies to spamming mouse 1 to deflect as you can't deflect bullet on reflex alone in close quarter, especially with the planned increase projectile speed
• Nerfing crouching : The only reason for crouching currently is to evade some blaster fire, perform blue lunge and convert a slap to a roll-stab. Making crouching taking even more damage would render these cases even harder to do. In that case you'd be better off jumping and spamming attack all day long. Can you point me cases or examples where crouching is too OP and needs to be nerfed?
• Slowing BP regen too much: Now I'm not sure about the number proposed but nerfing BP regen too much would mean that any jedi would have to hide for some time before even daring to take on another opponent. Playing as a team mean defending other players and nerfing BP regen would make jedi less apt at defending a gunner vs 2 jedis.

Other than that I'm neutral about the other changes due to my lack of experience.

Also, it is normal than if a swing is incoming and I release block and press attack to initiate and attack and I get hit during that time( when my animation is still blocking) the incoming hit just goes through and kill me? (even with defence 3 and deflect 3). That has happened a lot to me these days other than getting hit from the back ( as it seems to be the best way to solve a saber vs saber fight).

 

[Stassin]

* Holding mouse 1 drains 4 BP per second

Note: Flat drains are absolutely atrocious. My opinion of them has not changed and wont. Either the drains are too big, which means draining your own BP to attack, or they are too low, making them superfluous. Flat drains also invalidate tapping vs holding to a certain extent. I think we should bring back more skills related to BP management such as tapping vs holding now that ACM is going to go.

On this point then i think we agree, as i pointed out that it shouldn't be a flat 4BP drain as soon as you attack, with a cooldown of 1s, but a 1BP drain per 250ms (thus by tapping efficiently you can have only 1BP drain for every swing).

BP brain on mouse hold: IF it applies to spamming mouse 1 to deflect as you can't deflect bullet on reflex alone in close quarter, especially with the planned increase projectile speed

No what i mean applies only to attacking with swings (i.e. when you click mouse 1 alone, without mouse 2 being held at the same time).

Nerfing crouching : The only reason for crouching currently is to evade some blaster fire, perform blue lunge and convert a slap to a roll-stab. Making crouching taking even more damage would render these cases even harder to do. In that case you'd be better off jumping and spamming attack all day long. Can you point me cases or examples where crouching is too OP and needs to be nerfed?

Plenty of reason to crouch in a saber duel is to avoid getting slapped so you can attack freely, which is mainly what we want to deter. I'm pretty sure in current public crouching is already nerfed (possibly even with the same values i'm writing here), i just put it here on the off chance it isn't.

 

[MuscBodypillow]

Plenty of reason to crouch in a saber duel is to avoid getting slapped so you can attack freely, which is mainly what we want to deter. I'm pretty sure in current public crouching is already nerfed (possibly even with the same values i'm writing here), i just put it here on the off chance it isn't.

Doesn't holding block/swingblocking already counter slaps and allow you to attack freely or is there something I'm missing?
Because those two don't have huge penalties and counter that mechanic.

 

[Stassin]

Doesn't holding block/swingblocking already counter slaps and allow you to attack freely or is there something I'm missing?
Because those two don't have huge penalties and counter that mechanic.

What you are missing, is that swingblocking well enough to negate slaps, especially when doing swing chains, is much, much harder than just crouching and doing them freely. In fact, at any level people are still able to get knockdowns with slaps by timing them well. Crouching would negate that entirely and make slaps pointless, while swingblocking vs slapping is a difficult challenge.

 

[noel]

I've never seen a set of changes I agree with more

Have you played Tempest's most recent Open Beta? It's actually a step in the right direction IMO, things I like from it which I think should be kept are:

• The new pb zones (I know @SeV didn't like them at first, but they've now been tweaked again and they fit the animations a lot better now)
• The pb regen (if you pb consecutive swings)
• The slow effect after you take a swing (-15% movement speed when you run, walking is unaffected)
• The slow effect if you're hit and you try to run (currently affects walking too which doesnt make sense)
• The MB changes tempest has made (you can't fail an mblock and still pb)
• Longer slap timer

And to add:

• Allow PB on 'bounce-backs', i.e when you hit someone and they hit back straight away, you should be able to PB that swing.

 

[PuNk]

And to add:

• Allow PB on 'bounce-backs', i.e when you hit someone and they hit back straight away, you should be able to PB that swing.

I would very much like to see this. Or at least negate a certain % of the incoming dmg if you aim at the right zone to PB it.

 

[S o l d i e r]

Saber changes 2080 edition:

Due to the inability to reach consensus, sabers have been removed from the game.

 

[noel]

I would very much like to see this. Or at least negate a certain % of the incoming dmg if you aim at the right zone to PB it.

Tempest is adding it as we speak ! ! (for Semi PB i think not full PB)

 

[Stassin]

Yes semi-PB needs to cover that (and not only that...).

I've never seen a set of changes I agree with more

Have you played Tempest's most recent Open Beta? It's actually a step in the right direction IMO, things I like from it which I think should be kept are:

• The new pb zones (I know @SeV didn't like them at first, but they've now been tweaked again and they fit the animations a lot better now)
• The pb regen (if you pb consecutive swings)
• The slow effect after you take a swing (-15% movement speed when you run, walking is unaffected)
• The slow effect if you're hit and you try to run (currently affects walking too which doesnt make sense)
• The MB changes tempest has made (you can't fail an mblock and still pb)
• Longer slap timer

Those are more details so i'm kinda whatever on them, but here's my opinion anyways. Dunno about PB zones, as long as it remains similar to the current ones it's fine. PB regen, sure why not, although to me it's an overcomplexification (especially if it only activates in a very specific scenario like on consecutive swings, i've come to hate ultra-niche tweaks for ultra-specific situations that tempest loves to add everywhere - and that i loved to add everywhere too in the past, but i've learned).

I don't like having any slowing effects, not even when low BP, so especially not every single time you take a swing (i'd much rather have what SeV was talking about: shorter force focus time when running), but it's a detail so i guess it wouldn't hurt much as long as the general directions are good. About failing MB and longer slap timer, sure those sound ok.

 

[noel]

Yes semi-PB needs to cover that (and not only that...).


Those are more details so i'm kinda whatever on them, but here's my opinion anyways. Dunno about PB zones, as long as it remains similar to the current ones it's fine. PB regen, sure why not, although to me it's an overcomplexification (especially if it only activates in a very specific scenario like on consecutive swings, i've come to hate ultra-niche tweaks for ultra-specific situations that tempest loves to add everywhere - and that i loved to add everywhere too in the past, but i've learned).

I don't like having any slowing effects, not even when low BP, so especially not every single time you take a swing (i'd much rather have what SeV was talking about: shorter force focus time when running), but it's a detail so i guess it wouldn't hurt much as long as the general directions are good. About failing MB and longer slap timer, sure those sound ok.

The slow effect stops this happening tho (@pelmeņu lauks's footage, i hope you didn't put a creative commons license on it!!) https://i.gyazo.com/7ddbf39637a438b6e35ebdf9083b7da2.mp4

Sure running isnt as effective if there's no ACM but its still a nightmare to try and catch those people if they can run like that and slap you whenever you try to run yourself, skillful movement performed by walking should be encouraged, not this kind of run-hit run-hit meta which annoys so many of us huelists

 

[Stassin]

The slow effect stops this happening tho (@pelmeņu lauks's footage, i hope you didn't put a creative commons license on it!!) https://i.gyazo.com/7ddbf39637a438b6e35ebdf9083b7da2.mp4

Sure running isnt as effective if there's no ACM but its still a nightmare to try and catch those people if they can run like that and slap you whenever you try to run yourself, skillful movement performed by walking should be encouraged, not this kind of run-hit run-hit meta which annoys so many of us huelists

I'm not sure what that video shows. The player who's recording didn't hit his opponent, so even with such a feature he wouldn't have been slowed down, you'd have needed a slowdown on getting PBed for that. Which is even worse than slowdown on getting hit.

The opponent is indeed doing hit and run, but the main player is barely reacting to it, he could go chase him down as soon as he's hit. It's difficult and risky but people at the highest level manage to do it, there is no need imo for any feature whatsoever to stop this. Things like parries draining more BP and slower BP regen would already help with it. There will hardly be a need for any new specific features if the core mechanics are already good.

 

[Starushka]

Don't mess with Open mode. Slow down mechanic is going to affect open mode in a very bad way.

Regarding Sisi's changes - i agree.
v0 - v1 ACM/AP should stay - it's a good tool in open mode to clear rooms in no time from waves of nabs.

 

[Lessen]

Slow down mechanic is going to affect open mode in a very bad way.

It just makes saberists more capable of locking other saberists into a duel so that they can't get away. It also makes sense intuitively, imperfectly blocking a hard blow SHOULD hamper your movement for a moment. I suppose it'll reduce the ability of a single saberist to just skirt past other saberists and kill gunners; I kinda like that. More importantly, it at least makes it a bit harder for a saberist to stall for stupid amounts of time.

 

[Stassin]

It just makes saberists more capable of locking other saberists into a duel so that they can't get away. It also makes sense intuitively, imperfectly blocking a hard blow SHOULD hamper your movement for a moment. I suppose it'll reduce the ability of a single saberist to just skirt past other saberists and kill gunners; I kinda like that. More importantly, it at least makes it a bit harder for a saberist to stall for stupid amounts of time.

Don't disagree with this realistic justification of hampering movement, but the issue is that it has the following negatives: the big one is how bad it will feel for the one getting slowed down, much like PB preventing chains from continuing; the other ones are that there are already other mechanics in place to help with the running situation, force focus and blue/cyan which don't reduce the attacker's movement when swinging (so you can chase efficiently). These are already more than enough to chase low BP enemies, but hit & run can also be used even when high on BP.

It's difficult to do, but when someone does hit & run against you it's possible to punish him for that, since in order to hit you he necessarily had to get within swing range; so you need to react to his next movements and keep that distance to be able to hit him yourself. I don't want that kind of skillcap to be reduced by making it much easier with a slowdown. More importantly, the way the mechanic is described it would have the opposite effect: someone using hit & run against you will hit you first, thus slowing you down and completely preventing you from chasing him.

 

[noel]

I'm not sure what that video shows. The player who's recording didn't hit his opponent, so even with such a feature he wouldn't have been slowed down, you'd have needed a slowdown on getting PBed for that. Which is even worse than slowdown on getting hit.

The opponent is indeed doing hit and run, but the main player is barely reacting to it, he could go chase him down as soon as he's hit. It's difficult and risky but people at the highest level manage to do it, there is no need imo for any feature whatsoever to stop this. Things like parries draining more BP and slower BP regen would already help with it. There will hardly be a need for any new specific features if the core mechanics are already good.

No, the slowdown Tempest has added makes it so when the attacker attacks, he is slowed by 15%. This means that you can't hit and then run out of range instantly, there is always a window where you can be countered unless you use clever footwork/play with good range.

Sure Pelm could have ran after him instantly and might have hit him, I'm not saying that it's not impossible, it's just way too hard to do it consistently (especially because of slap or kick). It's also physically impossible (unless you use force) to catch up to someone who runs away from you due to you both possessing the exact same values of top speed, so theoretically you could run forever during a duel. That's why it annoys me so much, there's literally no disadvantage to dodging a swing over Pb'ing it in the public build, this is a problem because PB'ing is waaaaaaaay harder than just running in and out of someone's range.

I'm not sure if you've dueled Killing or anyone else that uses this type of dodge/hit meta in the public build but it is extremely frustrating to fight against because it's literally free pb and there's nothing you can do about it - Imagine these scenarios:

Person A attempts to swing at Person B (the dodger).
Person A swings outside of range and runs in to hit Person B.
Person B dodges the swing instead of PB'ing it, resulting in him having +1 swing count to his combo, meaning he both gains ACM + does more damage than Person A if they both do full combos.

Person B swings at person A, doing a single hit and then running out.
Person B then half swings or slaps as Person A chases to land another attack on him.
Person B hits Person A beforehand because he slaps/halfswings and it's quicker.
Person A loses the encounter once again due to cheap dodging.

Yes, the PB regen will encourage PB'ing more, and there's less of a reason to use a run-hit still if there's no ACM, but the problem will still persist in that dodging is almost always going to be an unskillful shortcut to defence.

Using footwork whilst blocking/walking (holding right click without shift - the fast walk) is infinitely more skilful because it is extremely difficult to avoid the other person's counter attack unless they're either A) too lazy to attack in return/don't want to, or B) you use good knowledge of swing range (i.e hitting them with the part of the animation which places you furthest away from the opponent) and semi-predict where they're going to move to, in order to avoid their next swing.

Run-hitting is a complete counter to this because you can be as lazy as you want with it and so long as you both have the seem maximum speed there's no way they can catch you once you're outside of swing range without force.

Yes, there are ways to get around it but it's not a nice mechanic and it's a gateway both to frustrating styles to duel against and also to running away to regenerate BP.

 

[Starushka]

Hit and run is 15 years old tactic. Don't know exactly how things is set now, but in the older builds if you hit runner once he is pretty much screwed, due to high drains. If you can't catch him then you do something wrong. The video you posted clearly shows us that Aayla Secura is a padawan and don't know yet how to catch that bastard (hint - you don't need to counter-attack every swing he throws at you).

 

[Lessen]

No, the slowdown Tempest has added makes it so when the attacker attacks, he is slowed by 15%.

Nani the fuck? But you said:

• The slow effect after you take a swing (-15% movement speed when you run, walking is unaffected)

• The slow effect if you're hit and you try to run (currently affects walking too which doesnt make sense)

 

[noel]

Nani the fuck? But you said:

yeah, there are two different slows, one where you get hit, the other where you hit and then run away

i'm saying i want both to be kept

Hit and run is 15 years old tactic. Don't know exactly how things is set now, but in the older builds if you hit runner once he is pretty much screwed, due to high drains. If you can't catch him then you do something wrong. The video you posted clearly shows us that Aayla Secura is a padawan and don't know yet how to catch that bastard (hint - you don't need to counter-attack every swing he throws at you).

well if u hit a runner atm it has no negative effect - and it can be really hard to hit a hit & runner, i already acknowledged that Pelmenu could have done a better job at chasing the other player