RP servers

[M@crobyte]

They didn't have classes..... we have classes.

Still I don't see the problem. All I've seen you say is "It's going to take work." There is a community of people willing to put in work to make it a reality.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Still I don't see the problem. All I've seen you say is "It's going to take work." There is a community of people willing to put in work to make it a reality.

And that is what were doing with CTF, Balance of Power, Conquest, Progressive Siege modes? You know those have been worked on every now and again since they were announced yet they still aren't in a playable state. It isn't like they're just sitting there. They've been in the works for years and they aren't done. It isn't that simple. People want us to keep fucking with the saber system more than they do us finishing new gamemodes.

 

[SeV]

Mace is a perfect example of someone who will say anything in order to further an argument for something which was basically instated as a RP protection. Even if all your facts are right (which they aren't), they still do not have anything to do with why a hard-coded timer is a good idea.

The fact of the matter is that you're putting up strawmen left right and center in order to avoid giving any ground to people who like to RP. I'm also curious to know why you think only 20 people will come back if we fix the broken timer. I certainly think it's going to be a larger number than that, but nvm. Let me put it another way. say you're right, only 20 people will come back. That's still quite a plus considering the fact that 0 people will leave if you fix the timer.

It's +20 no questions asked. There are only positives to doing it. Every single negative you make up is just utter bullshit, as anyone who played in b18 and prior versions will know. Another point I've made numerous times is that RP'ers usually don't RP all the time. They spend time playing open mode and dueling aswell so it won't seperate, split or kill the playerbase in any way...

The only real reason why you resist timers is because you don't like roleplayers and never have. Why don't you just come out and say it instead of putting up baloon arguments that can be punctured with the slightest prick of common sense and experience?

 

[M@crobyte]

And that is what were doing with CTF, Balance of Power, Conquest, Progressive Siege modes? You know those have been worked on every now and again since they were announced yet they still aren't in a playable state. It isn't like they're just sitting there. They've been in the works for years and they aren't done. It isn't that simple. People want us to keep fucking with the saber system more than they do us finishing new gamemodes.

So, part of the problem with that is, we as the community don't even know what the devs are working on prior to a beta. We have zero knowledge of what is happening on the back end because there's zero communication on that end. You say "we've been working on these ideas." At what point do you think its appropriate to let the community know what is coming down the pipe. Personally, I think the beta stage is too late. Beta stage means you are prepping it for delivery.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Man, its as if you weren't there and as if multiple developers agreed it was the right decision and that it was more than just RP but you keep claiming it was just anti RP. Yet there are only two people on the MB team where are actually anti-RP. You can fuck off. You are saying my arguments are bullshit because it didn't do those things when it fucking did. And you are just using using your own ideal view of what happened back then to justify removing it now. There were people who left MBII because of RP servers. Do you really not remember what happened in RC1 when people discovered via Ravagers corrupt siege file that they could remove the limit? We would have completely ignored it if it didn't cause a problem. OF course you wouldn't remember that though as it doesn't suit your arguments.

So, part of the problem with that is, we as the community don't even know what the devs are working on prior to a beta. We have zero knowledge of what is happening on the back end because there's zero communication on that end. You say "we've been working on these ideas." At what point do you think its appropriate to let the community know what is coming down the pipe. Personally, I think the beta stage is too late. Beta stage means you are prepping it for delivery.

We made news posts about them? They're just gone now because of what happened to the old site. We get way more posts about saber system X, Y, and Z than we do "Hey how is CTF progressing here is some ideas."

 

[SeV]

As far as I'm concerned, all you say is white noise and irrelevant with regards to the removal of the hard-coded time limit. It will not affect the community the way you think it will. You vastly over estimate the impact it will have. And so what if a few servers modify their time settings? Why do you care? There are official servers and big clan servers and together they can accomodate a huge amount of the players online at any given time. It's not as if people will be forced to join whatever server chooses to mess with the time limit.

In any case, all the issues you've made up are just that, made up. None of them exist and none of them will ever be relevant. If the timer is removed, everything will stay the same as it is now except for the fact that there might be some people who can enjoy roleplaying again in the greatest JKA mod ever. This is the reason why I'm saying you're anti-RP, because there's absolutely no reason NOT to remove the hard-coded timer.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

This is the reason why I'm saying you're anti-RP, because there's absolutely no reason NOT to remove the hard-coded timer.

That is nothing but your OPINION. You weren't there when we re-added the hard coded limit. I had just joined the team after my first release, I had no biases against RP and had never even played on an RP server. I noticed the bug with Ravager and informed the team and we had a discussion. RP was only one portion of the conversation between 12+ developers at the time in IRC. I give zero shits about RP but I do care about preserving MBIIs initial design specifications. One of which is the time limit.

 

[SeV]

Man, its as if you weren't there and as if multiple developers agreed it was the right decision and that it was more than just RP but you keep claiming it was just anti RP.

Whatever decision the devs made back then was wrong and they were deluded. You speak as if devs can do no wrong or make no bad decisions or ever be misinformed or prejudiced. Yet that's exactly what happened back then. Misinformed, prejudiced foolishness led to a bad decision that have yet to be recided even after 7 years.

That is nothing but your OPINION. You weren't there when we re-added the hard coded limit. I had just joined the team after my first release, I had no biases against RP and had never even played on an RP server. I noticed the bug with Ravager and informed the team and we had a discussion. RP was only one portion of the conversation between 12+ developers at the time in IRC. I give zero shits about RP but I do care about preserving MBIIs initial design specifications. One of which is the time limit.

What a fatuous remark that is. Would you rather that I stated your opinion instead? You're preserving nothing but a bad decision that leads to limited gameplay opportunities and community shrinkage as a consequence of that decision.

As I said in my previous post, removing the hard-coded time limit will change nothing for the worse. It will just give people more opportunities to play the game in a fun and creative way and it might even bring a chunk of people back from the abyss along with some new players looking for a welcoming RP home. Then those RP'ers will get sucked into MBII's excellent gameplay and go play open and duel aswell. Removing the hard-coded timer will have POSITIVE effects on the community and the game and the playerbase and it is such a minor thing to quibble about and argue so vehemently against. Just do it and you'll see.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

If adhering to a design specification is a bad decision and is deluded I don't want to live in the world you live in. If we started treating the saber system that way I bet you would have a hissy fit.

 

[M@crobyte]

e made news posts about them? They're just gone now because of what happened to the old site. We get way more posts about saber system X, Y, and Z than we do "Hey how is CTF progressing here is some ideas."

One of the things that can be improved on is the communication between the devs and community. I doesn't really matter in what form. But, maybe saying "Hey guys, here is a list of things we are working on...what would you all like to see." Cause the bottom line is this. If you all do not include things the community wants to see, people will leave.

The timelimit being hard coded was strictly a dev decision. No one in the community even asked for it.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

The timelimit being hard coded was strictly a dev decision. No one in the community even asked for it.

It absolutely was a developer decision. Just like the decision to only allow certain abilities in FA yet people want them in open or the decision to not have shotguns in open. Not everything the community wants is a good idea. The community is not always going to agree with design specifications either apparently.

Lets go build a vehicle entirely out of aluminum because some business man thought it was cheaper to do so even though it goes against design specifications causing the car to be more likely to kill the driver in impact tests.

 

[M@crobyte]

It absolutely was a developer decision. Just like the decision to only allow certain abilities in FA yet people want them in open. Not everything the community wants is a good idea.

Neither is everything the devs want is a good idea. That's my point. If the devs continue to only make decisions that only they think is right, people will stop playing.

 

[SeV]

If adhering to a design specification is a bad decision and is deluded I don't want to live in the world you live in. If we started treating the saber system that way I bet you would have a hissy fit.

Babble. The saber system isn't some unchangeable constant like the hard-coded timer has been. It's been continuously changed and revised and improved upon for over 10 years.

The only reason I say we should reinstate the unlimited timer is because I want the best for the community. I'm not even an RP'er anymore. I haven't been for many years.

So here's your main concern and why it's utter bullshit.

You say that the timer is an inherent MB2 design decision but answer me this. Who says what is a design decision and what is not? Who makes the rules and why? The devs do this. You can change it if you want. You may not say that going against your own decision is bad because it goes against your own decision. That is no argument.

Next. Since you're a mapper and you've stated several times that different timers will fuck with map balance, then why don't you just set the standard inteded map timers as defaults and then let server owners modify them 'IF THEY WANT'. It's about choice mate. Choice and freedom. Since when is that a bad idea in a game? Or in real life even.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Neither is everything the devs want is a good idea. That's my point. If the devs continue to only make decisions that only they think is right, people will stop playing.

Developers don't know everything and you've seen us admit when we are wrong *cough saber perks cough*.You've seen us get information from the community all the time and if you follow me specifically you see me show progress on EC related things asking for feedback. You aren't seeing us suddenly add microtransactions into MBII onto skins with stat benefits here and never will. You're never going to make everyone happy when making a video game and people will leave regardless.

You say that the timer is an inherent MB2 design decision but answer me this. Who says what is a design decision and what is not? Who makes the rules and why? The devs do this. You can change it if you want. You may not say that going against your own decision is bad because it goes against your own decision. That is no argument.

I'm not changing it without RenegadeOfPhunk approving nor should the team. This is one of those things that goes deeper into the roots than most other decisions.

Babble. The saber system isn't some unchangeable constant like the hard-coded timer has been. It's been continuously changed and revised and improved upon for over 10 years.

You completely missed the point about how you're treating the timer as something you can just throw around and do what you want with. If we just randomly added things without feedback to the saber system or whatever just throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks rather than having an actual plan of attack then no one would be happy.

Next. Since you're a mapper and you've stated several times that different timers will fuck with map balance, then why don't you just set the standard inteded map timers as defaults and then let server owners modify them 'IF THEY WANT'. It's about choice mate. Choice and freedom. Since when is that a bad idea in a game? Or in real life even.

Well quite frankly people bitch enough about levels as is, if someone decided to go onto a server with a lowered time limit we would get complaints about not being able to finish the objective in 4 minutes literally impossible kind of crap, or people getting bored because theyre waiting too long after they died from a 6 minute timer. I don't want to deal with either of those. Minimum those servers would need to be marked on the server list before any of this happens. Do you know what that requires? Redoing the server UI (In the planning stage anyway) because we've run out of slots to mark stuff on. It is the same thing as running your own servers in other games where they add a "Modded" tag and it no longer tracks stats which last I checked the team was planning to do through the launcher. Someone is more likely to die in a 6 minute round than a 4 minute round and messes with stats. Someone is going to fire more shots resulting in running out of ammo more in a 6 minute round. You don't even realize the things a time limit removal could affect. There are STANDARDIZATIONS for a reason. If we add stats (Again planned) we wouldn't want to have a large amount of stat padding if we could avoid it either and having a time limit does help with that.

 

[M@crobyte]

Developers don't know everything and you've seen us admit when we are wrong *cough saber perks cough*.You've seen us get information from the community all the time and if you follow me specifically you see me show progress on EC related things asking for feedback. You aren't seeing us suddenly add microtransactions into MBII onto skins with stat benefits here and never will. You're never going to make everyone happy when making a video game and people will leave regardless.

The only team I've seen anyone from the dev team come out and ask for feedback ABOUT MB2 is during the beta stage. EC is irrelevant to this topic.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

The only team I've seen anyone from the dev team come out and ask for feedback ABOUT MB2 is during the beta stage. EC is irrelevant to this topic.

Thats just recent history. If you saw when I was actively developing there was a thread dedicated to progress on my levels where I would show layouts, event WIPs, etc. that people could respond to. Several of us also ask for random idea feedback in-game.

 

[SeV]

Developers don't know everything and you've seen us admit when we are wrong *cough saber perks cough*.You've seen us get information from the community all the time and if you follow me specifically you see me show progress on EC related things asking for feedback. You aren't seeing us suddenly add microtransactions into MBII onto skins with stat benefits here and never will. You're never going to make everyone happy when making a video game and people will leave regardless.

I'm not changing it without RenegadeOfPhunk approving nor should the team. This is one of those things that goes deeper into the roots than most other decisions.

Idiotic. These aren't reasons for removing what shouldn't have been instated in the first place.

You completely missed the point about how you're treating the timer as something you can just throw around and do what you want with. If we just randomly added things without feedback to the saber system or whatever just throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks rather than having an actual plan of attack then no one would be happy.

Because unlimiting the timer won't have repercussions on gameplay the way you think it will. It is you who is missing the point.

Well quite frankly people bit enough about levels as is, if someone decided to go onto a server with a lowered time limit we would get complaints about not being able to finish the objective in 4 minutes literally impossible kind of crap, or people getting bored because theyre waiting too long after they died from a 6 minute timer. I don't want to deal with either of those. Minimum those servers would need to be marked on the server list before any of this happens. Do you know what that requires? Redoing the server UI (In the planning stage anyway) because we've run out of slots to mark stuff on. It is the same thing as running your own servers in other games where they add a "Modded" tag and it no longer tracks stats which last I checked the team was planning to do through the launcher. Someone is more likely to die in a 6 minute round than a 4 minute round and messes with stats. Someone is going to fire more shots resulting in running out of ammo more in a 6 minute round. You don't even realize the things a time limit removal could affect. There are STANDARDIZATIONS for a reason.

Look. There was a time before hard-coded time limits. A time much like this one, the only exception being that there existed a Roleplaying community. The only thing you changed by hard-coding the timelimit was that you made it impossible to properly RP using MBII. You didn't change the gameplay or the servers and there were never any complaints with the time limit other than people taking issue with the devs sudden decision to fuck with RP'ers.

Consequently, removing the hard-coded timers will change absolutely nothing. The game will still be played as it is currently on open, but if you're so truly afraid of the gameplay being ruined just slap infinite respawns and infinite time limit on duel mode or make a seperate mode. But all I'm saying is that you don't even have to do that, as removing it won't affect anything negatively. It will just have the positive consequence of allowing people freedom to play around with MBII in more creative ways.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Again, revisionist history from Sev. Done with this.

Timelimit was removed for a while due to bug -> We saw consequences -> Fixed bug -> Sev says there is zero negatives for removing timelimit -> Flawless logic.

 

[SeV]

Again, revisionist history from Sev. Done with this.

Lul, as if your version of events is unbiased. It's good that you're done with it, because you never had anything to add to the arguments in the first place. We clearly can't agree so lets leave it at that.

Hmm. Maybe we should do a poll or something. What would you do if the community turned out to actually want the timer removed?

Should the hard-coded time limit be removed?

 

[SeV]

Again, revisionist history from Sev. Done with this.

Timelimit was removed for a while due to bug -> We saw consequences -> Fixed bug -> Sev says there is zero negatives for removing timelimit -> Flawless logic.

Oh you're not done yet? Does 'We saw consequences' in your book constitute a coherent argument or any sort of logic? I would hope not. Basically, 'we saw consequences' means you saw people making RP communities and enjoying the shit out of the game and you didn't want that so you raised your middle finger at them.