Reverting to Legacy Saber vs Gunner

[SomeGuy]

I feel like Saber versus Gunner gameplay is even worse than it was in 1.3 right now. Flinch does not do what it was intended. Saberists are afforded too many mistakes before it's deadly.

I would suggest trying the old formula from beta build days.

-Knockback on blaster hit.
-Force Power reduced on hit.
-No flinch.
-No swingblock against shots.

Obviously I mean have it as a test and not change immediately, but it would be nice to compare to.

 

[Tylenol]

And enjoy the instability and out of date technology. You'd also need someone to host a (probably) very unsecured and vulnerable server

 

[SomeGuy]

I don't mean actually hosting an old build. I mean changing it and testing it with the current stuff.

 

[Lessen]

I feel like Saber versus Gunner gameplay is even worse than it was in 1.3 right now. Flinch does not do what it was intended. Saberists are afforded too many mistakes before it's deadly.

I for one completely agree. Replacing flinch with higher knockback is something that's definitely going to be at least tested again pretty soon, and I think Tempest and Stassin at least are both in favor of this change. So it seems pretty likely to happen.

Tempest is also in favor of removing or revising swingblock, and I personally am not opposed to it. That might happen, further down the road.

I also have an additional idea about how to nerf wiggle-dancing without directly fucking with the movement system, but that's a weird thing I need to test privately to see if it's actually viable.

 

[Blazer]

I hear about swingblock and I forget again, isn't that the thing where you don't take damage if you're shot and instead just cancels your swing?

If so, that's a terrible and stupid thing because it makes absolutely no sense, it reverts any punishment for swinging at all, which is what flinch is there for.

 

[Lessen]

I hear about swingblock and I forget again, isn't that the thing where you don't take damage if you're shot and instead just cancels your swing?

Yup. But it's worth noting that while you're swingblocking (as in while you're holding block), your movespeed is capped at 50%, making you easier to hit. So it's not a totally free action, and in fact from what I see good saberists usually DON'T swingblock, because they would rather use the higher speed to step out of the line of fire completely. Then they start swingblocking after the main part of the swing is over to cover their butts.

Although good saberists will swingblock against a low ROF attack like A280/DLT-20a burst. It works very well there.

Could theoretically make it so you can only swingblock during the startup and return parts of a swing, but not the hitbox-active part of the swing.

 

[Blazer]

Yup. But it's worth noting that while you're swingblocking (as in while you're holding block), your movespeed is capped at 50%, making you easier to hit. So it's not a totally free action, and in fact from what I see good saberists usually DON'T swingblock, because they would rather use the higher speed to step out of the line of fire completely. Then they start swingblocking after the main part of the swing is over to cover their butts.

Although good saberists will swingblock against a low ROF attack like A280/DLT-20a burst. It works very well there.

Could theoretically make it so you can only swingblock during the startup and return parts of a swing, but not the hitbox-active part of the swing.

Thanks for the answer.

Still feels cheap though, alot of the time I play gunner and hit a jedi while swingblocking it sucks. It feels very unrewarding and feels like I've been cheaped out of 1-3 shots on the jedi and instead just drained like 10 fp from him.

 

[Tylenol]

Thanks for the answer.

Still feels cheap though, alot of the time I play gunner and hit a jedi while swingblocking it sucks. It feels very unrewarding and feels like I've been cheaped out of 1-3 shots on the jedi and instead just drained like 10 fp from him.

No Jedi actually uses a swingblock for attacks, and if they do they're doing it wrong. Its better to risk the chance of getting flinched than it is for you to basically take the chance of actually getting a hit or a kill away

 

[Lessen]

No Jedi actually uses a swingblock for attacks, and if they do they're doing it wrong. Its better to risk the chance of getting flinched than it is for you to basically take the chance of actually getting a hit or a kill away

To explain what I said earlier more clearly, I'm reasonably sure a good saberist will:
- Start swingblocking immediately after their swing is past the point of either hitting or missing, since there's no point continuing the vulnerability of a non-swingblocked swing if you're not gonna hit anything.
- Start a swing at a slow-firing gunner (particularly A280 burstfire) and swingblock to survive the reflexive burst, then go for a free slash while the burstfire is on cooldown.

So swingblock IS used, pretty constantly. It's just not used during the exact moment of killing. So to speak.

 

[Tylenol]

So swingblock IS used, pretty constantly. It's just not used during the exact moment of killing. So to speak.

I should have probably clarified I meant that *constantly* swing blocking when in conflict with a gunner is stupid, not in general since I do agree it has its place in certain situations

 

[k4far]

I also have an additional idea about how to nerf wiggle-dancing without directly fucking with the movement system, but that's a weird thing I need to test privately to see if it's actually viable.

Why would you nerf shadow swinging? I know Ben hates it and it shouldn't be in the game.

 

[k4far]

Shadow swinging is more important in open than it is in duel mode but without shadow swinging open will be just butcher of Jedi/Sith and you will have a build that is solely Gunner oriented. I am not sure you want that.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I feel like Saber versus Gunner gameplay is even worse than it was in 1.3 right now. Flinch does not do what it was intended. Saberists are afforded too many mistakes before it's deadly.

I would suggest trying the old formula from beta build days.

-Knockback on blaster hit.
-Force Power reduced on hit.
-No flinch.
-No swingblock against shots.

Obviously I mean have it as a test and not change immediately, but it would be nice to compare to.

Is this the part where people go "Hey Achilles, we thought your ideas were bad, but they were actually pretty interesting. We should try them!"

Or is this the part where people go "Man that Achilles guy was such an idiot, good thing all these totally original ideas we have came from us and not him."



Because, you know, I've literally had hours of discussion on these very topics and provided many solutions.

 

[Pepsi]

Is this the part where people go "Hey Achilles, we thought your ideas were bad, but they were actually pretty interesting. We should try them!"

Literally noone said it. You brought increasing projectiles speed, so it's obvious you have no clue about how mb2 gameplay should be done.

 

[k4far]

Literally noone said it. You brought increasing projectiles speed, so it's obvious you have no clue about how mb2 gameplay should be done.

Cola pls. Increased speeds were brought by arguments like speeding up the game and it wasn't Achilles. Multiple developers that you support. Achilles doesn't talk much about guns anyway so I am not sure how you came to conclusion it's his fault if anything.

 

[Pepsi]

Cola pls. Increased speeds were brought by arguments like speeding up the game and it wasn't Achilles. Multiple developers that you support. Achilles doesn't talk much about guns anyway so I am not sure how you came to conclusion it's his fault if anything.

Kefir pls, do not interrupt conversation if you have no clue what are you talking about.
v1.5 increased projectile speeds: discussion
post #116 proves that achilles at least strongly support that idea. Add that he was the gameplay leader or smth like that and you will get the picture.

 

[k4far]

Kefir pls, do not interrupt conversation if you have no clue what are you talking about.
v1.5 increased projectile speeds: discussion
post #116 proves that achilles at least strongly support that idea. Add that he was the gameplay leader or smth like that and you will get the picture.

Previously Supa>Hexodious>Ben (current). Achilles was never the Gameplay Lead, take off those mushrooms dude.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

post #116 proves that achilles at least strongly support that idea. Add that he was the gameplay leader or smth like that and you will get the picture.

He definitely was the one that brought up the recent speed increase and kept pushing for it, while others like myself agreed that we needed to increase the speed a bit more (he often wanted more extreme than the rest of us though - and I personally would be willing to try and in-between value of old vs current).

 

[k4far]

This game awfully needs Supa to come back and be Gameplay Lead but you know what fuck it Mace scared him away for last time.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Mace scared him away for last time.

Or Supa could not be a drama queen.