People don't play to win

[S o l d i e r]

In MB2 people aren't as focused on winning as in some other games, say Counter Strike 1.6. Here they play more "loosely", which means some people are camping the spawn or some remote location and timewasting, either on purpose or not on purpose, some are spamming taunts around or kicking/punching/melee-kataing teammates, others are having some "cool duelz" in the Gen always running away trying to perform some cool moves, taunting and standing looking at each other all while not being aware that there is anyone or anything else but them on the map, while other are focused on their little part of the battle completely ignoring the team and ignoring winning the game while caring only for their scores, while some are so frag hungry that they shoot/slash enemies even though they know it would hurt their teammates or has a chance to hurt them, or they hurt teammates on purpose, while others choose to go melee duel with the enemy or side with the enemy in killing teammates, or for merely having fun not attacking the enemies and jumping around with them and timewasting, while some are roleplaying in the main sense of that word. People are actually playing more for their scores or for some weird fun than for actually winning the game. Rarely is there any prominent teamplay, and the objectives are secondary, even those that are primary. There are usually one or two people doing the objectives and caring for them while everyone else donesn't even know when the round ends, because they were not paying attention to the objective and those one or two people sneaked behind their lines and completed it. The round limit is very long too which further promotes any camping/fooling around. The most of JKA is, in fact, like this too. This is something that isn't easy to mend, although I know the developers did everything to stop roleplaying and other things which don't have anything to do with MB2's intended gameplay.

 

[S o l d i e r]

I don't know if 3:30 is the right answer. Some maps need much more time to complete the objective and thus their objective would be deemed useless. It would be just kill the enemy team game mode. However making time a variable depending on the server and/or/xor map would probably be a good solution. The only con is that it would be bothersome and inconsistent.

Variable would actually be useless. What, to reduce Smuggler to 3 minutes? There is no camping and timewasting on Smuggler as the map is small, the rounds end in short time and the time limit plays no part there. The biggest maps that are the biggest problem would still stay 5 minutes so the problem wouldn't be solved at all.

 

[LoU]

"However making time a variable depending on the server and/or/xor map would probably be a good solution." @ZwM
I disagree, it's like with dotf servers, people will just join to server with 5 min time limit.

 

[ZwM]

"However making time a variable depending on the server and/or/xor map would probably be a good solution." @ZwM
I disagree, it's like with dotf servers, people will just join to server with 5 min time limit.

'and/or/xor' What I mean it might be one of them. So, each map a different time limit. Dotf make it 3 minutes. But if you were to for example make jabba 3:30 than I think the objective would be almost useless - there are other maps that wouldn't have an objective after such a change(boc,republic cruiser). I am not in favor of killing the purpose of an objective. Either way I think 3:30 set for all the maps is too little for some maps. If we had to reduce the round time for every map then I'd opt for 4 minutes.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

"However making time a variable depending on the server and/or/xor map would probably be a good solution." @ZwM
I disagree, it's like with dotf servers, people will just join to server with 5 min time limit.

So your solution is to remove choice from the players? If the vast majority want a 5 minute time limit, then reducing it would be a step in the wrong direction, I believe.

 

[LoU]

So your solution is to remove choice from the players? If the vast majority want a 5 minute time limit, then reducing it would be a step in the wrong direction, I believe.

It depends on bigger picture. Majority of players includes more new players than the old ones. It depends what we want to achieve and what direction we want for MB2. Should it be more dynamic or not.

Movie Battles has been made with assumption of team-based modification to Jedi Academy, however it' been changing from the beginning, and the question is: Does Movie Battles keep the main vision of itself? I rarely see people doing OBJ, they rather go and run in generator room, hangar casing each other. I'm not saying it's wrong, but noone gives a damn about obj, and sometimes you can even be insulted for completing one.

So it depends what direction we want to go to. More open and TDM or more pressure on actual gamestyle - teamwork and completing objectives. Or maybe both.

OP raised the problem about people not playing as it was intended (kinda), not playing to win. (blanace is other thing so not gonna refer to that)

Dunno why, but back when I was active we wanted to bring back +1 death to attackers if they won't complete the OBJ I think this is fair solution, and by removal people rather hide and keep k/d ratio than go and help the team (different story but k/d ratio should disappear from shared scoreboard)

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I don't have enough hands to count the number of times I've won by completing the objective because people were just fucking around in gen or hangar.

Now, I will always be of the opinion it is for the level designer to choose the time limit of the level based off of testing and the overall size of the level (Smuggler could easily be limited to 3 minutes). I don't think servers should be modifying the time at all.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

It depends on bigger picture. Majority of players includes more new players than the old ones. It depends what we want to achieve and what direction we want for MB2. Should it be more dynamic or not.

Movie Battles has been made with assumption of team-based modification to Jedi Academy, however it' been changing from the beginning, and the question is: Does Movie Battles keep the main vision of itself? I rarely see people doing OBJ, they rather go and run in generator room, hangar casing each other. I'm not saying it's wrong, but noone gives a damn about obj, and sometimes you can even be insulted for completing one.

So it depends what direction we want to go to. More open and TDM or more pressure on actual gamestyle - teamwork and completing objectives. Or maybe both.

OP raised the problem about people not playing as it was intended (kinda), not playing to win. (blanace is other thing so not gonna refer to that)

Dunno why, but back when I was active we wanted to bring back +1 death to attackers if they won't complete the OBJ I think this is fair solution, and by removal people rather hide and keep k/d ratio than go and help the team (different story but k/d ratio should disappear from shared scoreboard)

We can have both. I can think of a number of ways to fix these issues, but the best solution falls to server owners just getting rid of time wasters themselves.

Dueling and RPing in open mode can be improved, and remain.

 

[LoU]

We can have both. I can think of a number of ways to fix these issues, but the best solution falls to server owners just getting rid of time wasters themselves.

Dueling and RPing in open mode can be improved, and remain.

I don't mind RPing and dueling unless they are the reason the team loses round after round. But yeah, I agree with you, admins should be present on servers however, sometimes players need to be pushed into right direction as well. If you don't mind start a thread and share your ideas on how we cooperation (as a result)between players can be improved.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I don't mind RPing and dueling unless they are the reason the team loses round after round. But yeah, I agree with you, admins should be present on servers however, sometimes players need to be pushed into right direction as well. If you don't mind start a thread and share your ideas on how we cooperation (as a result)between players can be improved.

My ideas come in a large package, and I've shared them before, people agreed, then nothing ever happened. I have basically a large set of 'fix all ideas' that will improve gameplay as well as balance.

 

[LoU]

I wasn't active for long time so probably I missed a lot of good ideas and feedback. I think we need to somehow make more sense to this section. Gonna bring it up later to devs.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I wasn't active for long time so probably I missed a lot of good ideas and feedback. I think we need to somehow make more sense to this section. Gonna bring it up later to devs.

Basically, my set of ideas for fixing time-wasting *and* making MB2 a bit more skill-based (as well as making teamwork more interesting), would be to add in out-of-combat healing, but then add in counters to it. Such as adding more skills/items for a Bounty Hunter to do just that, hunt.

Say for instance a Jedi is *REALLY* good, and he managed to kill 3 mediocre Mandos, the Mandos all had flamethrower so despite the fact that he played flawlessly, he still took 40 damage. In my ideal system, he'd be able to take cover for a few seconds, then regenerate his health (Armor wouldn't regen, and Wooks/SBDs/Dekas would need a healing/repair state). There would instantly be a lot of narrow-minded people going 'But that would encourage timewasting!' to which I say, nonsense. For one thing, it would mean that the Jedi could be less cautious about approaching a new group of targets and thus less 'turtly' since he was able to recover all of his health. It would mean that a Jedi/Sith duel wouldn't be like watching deranged passive aggressive badgers running at each other because they both only have 2 HP left.

Ontop of that, you can add methods for people to chase down these players to keep them from healing, adding in counter play. Such as a tracking dart on BH becoming useful in keeping a Jedi from escaping to heal, so you can know where he is.

This would go hand in hand with a system that has higher damages and faster projectiles, so that aiming means more than strafing around like a back up dancer having a seizure.

What it WOULD mean is that multiple-life classes would need a bit of a look at, is all.


tl;dr - There needs to be more variety in builds, and faster paced combat.

 

[S o l d i e r]

I'd say set up a public test with the round limit reduced to 4 minutes and see how it would work and how people would like it.

So your solution is to remove choice from the players? If the vast majority want a 5 minute time limit, then reducing it would be a step in the wrong direction, I believe.

I don't think many people want 5 minutes. No one likes waiting in spec for 4 minutes dead or waiting to spawn and wasting time. They want to feel the gameplay not to look at people camping for 4 minutes and then waking up and going for objective, or time wasters and those that fool around wasting their time. As I said before:

Reducing the round time limit would:
1. Encourage faster gameplay (less camping and timewasting, the attackers would be more active)
2. Reduce the time you have to wait when you die [or when you are waiting to spawn]

Now, I will always be of the opinion it is for the level designer to choose the time limit of the level based off of testing and the overall size of the level (Smuggler could easily be limited to 3 minutes). I don't think servers should be modifying the time at all.

Variable would actually be useless. What, to reduce Smuggler to 3 minutes? There is no camping and timewasting on Smuggler as the map is small, the rounds end in short time and the time limit plays no part there. The biggest maps that are the biggest problem would still stay 5 minutes so the problem wouldn't be solved at all.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Basically, my set of ideas for fixing time-wasting *and* making MB2 a bit more skill-based (as well as making teamwork more interesting), would be to add in out-of-combat healing, but then add in counters to it. Such as adding more skills/items for a Bounty Hunter to do just that, hunt.

Say for instance a Jedi is *REALLY* good, and he managed to kill 3 mediocre Mandos, the Mandos all had flamethrower so despite the fact that he played flawlessly, he still took 40 damage. In my ideal system, he'd be able to take cover for a few seconds, then regenerate his health (Armor wouldn't regen, and Wooks/SBDs/Dekas would need a healing/repair state). There would instantly be a lot of narrow-minded people going 'But that would encourage timewasting!' to which I say, nonsense. For one thing, it would mean that the Jedi could be less cautious about approaching a new group of targets and thus less 'turtly' since he was able to recover all of his health. It would mean that a Jedi/Sith duel wouldn't be like watching deranged passive aggressive badgers running at each other because they both only have 2 HP left.

Ontop of that, you can add methods for people to chase down these players to keep them from healing, adding in counter play. Such as a tracking dart on BH becoming useful in keeping a Jedi from escaping to heal, so you can know where he is.

This would go hand in hand with a system that has higher damages and faster projectiles, so that aiming means more than strafing around like a back up dancer having a seizure.

What it WOULD mean is that multiple-life classes would need a bit of a look at, is all.


tl;dr - There needs to be more variety in builds, and faster paced combat.

Self-regenerating health is a modern trend in shooters, but it is not available in all shooters. Prime example of this is Counter-Strike. I personally find that health is a nice limiter and encourages careful and methodical play. This is what I love about MB2's core design. Every choice matters.

It is also worth noting that Jedi/Sith already have regenerative health in the form of FP and BP. They might not keep you safe from all damage, but they do play a large role in mitigating damage in the hands of a careful player.

Build variety and faster paced combat could be attained with more inspired map design. It is worth noting how exciting matches are on Smuggler and Alderaan compared to key favorites like DOTF, Deathstar, Kamino and Lunarbase.

I'd look into opening more doors and pathways early on in many maps to make gameplay faster. Lunarbase could easily benefit from the lower door at Main Hangar opening by itself and fairly quickly. In similar fashion the side doors should not even be an objective.

DOTF would also benefit from opening the doors to imp spawn instantly. The key change ought to be that imp spawn is moved to T-Junction at round start and then after the spawn, up to the throne room door. Instant action and 3 fronts of battle.

 

[jango40]

People not taking this game too seriously and fooling around is exactly why I enjoy it. When I want to play serious, I join a pug.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

You can have both. That just adds more fun to the hunt.

Regarding time management. I have to agree that certain maps would benefit immensely from shortening, & in some cases, lengthening it.
Funny thought, a what if, could be, maybe but really just in my dreams scenario, where doing an objective shortened the time or lengthened it while opening new portions of a map up. Dynamic Objectives, Shifting Time Rounds, New Pathways, Sex, Drugs & Que Music!

I mean, Look at Maces Map based on a star cruiser. Shit starts blowing up in the end. But what if a team managed to avert it, causing an new objective mission, new patheways, parts of the map open up, and teams respawn and set up to continue further...on the level.

Or was that was what the abandoned FA'SA was supposed to be

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Self-regenerating health is a modern trend in shooters, but it is not available in all shooters. Prime example of this is Counter-Strike. I personally find that health is a nice limiter and encourages careful and methodical play. This is what I love about MB2's core design. Every choice matters.

You wouldn't be losing careful or methodical play. I like careful and methodical play. Know what I don't like? Losing 3/4ths of my HP from poison darts that I have no way of avoiding, then not having any way of recovering that HP even after I killed half the enemy team. I hate that in-born shitty limit on the potential of players, that they can only win X number of duels before they're slapped to death, or take X number of seconds of flamethrower before they die regardless of how good they are.

These are *awful* game designs without regeneration.

It is also worth noting that Jedi/Sith already have regenerative health in the form of FP and BP. They might not keep you safe from all damage, but they do play a large role in mitigating damage in the hands of a careful player.

They don't mitigate damage, they are simply a timer for how long you have before you die. Good players can extend that timer a bit, which is why almost all of the skilled players in this game are Jedi/Sith mains. Jedi/Sith allows for a lot more individual skill than gunning. Incidentally that timer also exists (although is much worse) on Commander, which is why I enjoy using that class, because the dodge function gives me that precious bit of time where I can fight, and potentially win by skill before I can take any real damage. The actual damage mitigation comes from the insane damage resistance that Jedi have now to compensate for the poorly implemented flinch. I don't like how many shots it takes for a jedi to die, I really don't.

Either way, the war of attrition mindset is completely stupid for a competitive game.

Build variety and faster paced combat could be attained with more inspired map design. It is worth noting how exciting matches are on Smuggler and Alderaan compared to key favorites like DOTF, Deathstar, Kamino and Lunarbase.

I agree, better map design would help, but it won't make it fast paced, it would just add more strategies. Believe it or not, maps like Smuggler and CommTower have the most room for strategy, and I've managed to defeat staggering odds as a lowly Commander on those maps. However, with the lack of balance in the game, they quickly become nightmares with large groups of players.

DOTF would also benefit from opening the doors to imp spawn instantly. The key change ought to be that imp spawn is moved to T-Junction at round start and then after the spawn, up to the throne room door. Instant action and 3 fronts of battle.

Or, they do the smart thing, and just camp infront of the door, where it is incredibly hard to make any sort of push with the 3 cover-less chokepoints and the power of SBD/nades/proj rifle.

 

[King]

Why not just assign a death for losing the obj or running out of time? This motivates the ego scorers to try to keep their precious k:d by actually completing or preventing the other team from completing the objective.

 

[LanceOfLonginus]

the reason this game is timeless is because it isn't like the dime a dozen modern fps with hitscan (well not anymore, but might as well be) healing, and the much beloved (idk why, i'm quake preferential myself) reload.

the reason people keep coming back to MB2 is because it's different. It sets itself apart, make it like every other fps and people will just pick better fpses.

for longevity you have two options: set yourself apart, or be the best.

And mb2 can't be the best modern fps when it's built out of the quake engine (which is innately arcadey)

I don't see any issues with arcade arena combat games. They're even making a comeback with DOOM and quake's revitalization efforts.

 

[Kyton]

people come back to mb2 because it is one of VERY few shooters set in star wars these days.
I think it needs more open-maps with objectives that require team effort and more ffa type gameplay and less round based deathmatch focus.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

If that was the reason everyone would have gone to generic Star Wars shooter with modern graphics a la, whatever that piece of shit game was/is called.