PB System Change

[Torlo50]

So, had an idea. What if we removed bp regen on pb AND pb blocking all dmg? I mean, I think it is a bad mechanic that allows duels to go on too long. We want shorter duels, ignore anything else, but this idea. There is no way to completely remove damage from an enemy swing. Think about it. We can lower dmg dealt, all around, to still allow duels that aren't over in instants. Change PB so that on PB to greatly lower incoming damage, but not all of it. No way for even the best of players to simply go on forever. Don't forget that lowering all dmg dealt (while changing defensive values at the same time as needed) will still allow duels to go on a bit, but will give a certain end date to a duel, no matter what. Suddenly, it's about wearing away the enemy. Battering through the defensive suddenly becomes a possible tactic. PB will still be hugely important, but no longer allow someone really good at it to simply PB forever (if they wanted to). I don't care how good you are, they should have to go on the offensive. Can't simply make a mistake, then 3 pb their way back to half bp. Shouldn't be a thing. Now, some say, just remove PB regen, but keep 0 bp damage. I get it, and I think that would be a step in the right direction, but not far enough. This change is only viable if you also adjust offensive and defensive values of course. Treat the bp bar less as some sort of mechanical feature, which is how it feels and plays, but a more realistic stamina of sorts. So blocking a hit still works against you, but not as badly as taking the hit. The jedi/stih only can keep up the fight based on how their stamina is in many novel books (EU based, or Legends, whatever). Most Light-saber fights go down onto the person who either makes a super stupid mistake (Anakin vs. Obi-Wan) or is better at following instinctive movements. (Dooku in all his fights). I maintain, if we consider SW universe real for a moment, that once you learn the moves, or move-set, if you will, of a style, how good a jedi/sith is based on how they can combine different styles together, and how instinctive each move is. How much they don't have to think to fight. If they rely on the force too much, and not on ingrained movements, then they are only so good as their force connection. A true duelist can actually duel, much like sword fighting in real life I would imagine.

I wonder what people think of this idea. I know it would be a big change. Hell I understand how many long-time Vets would dislike such a feature. I do think sabering would come out of such a change for the better though. I think, in the end, we focus on the BP bar too much. We need to think more outside the box. Stop considering, "What can we do to swings/moves/specials/DFA's and how it affects BP", but more on how BP actually works and is featured. Make the system feel like it flows more, less janky, if you will. Thanks to anyone who gives their considered opinion. Please don't just shout, "No way to negate all damage? No, screw you!" Just... think about how that might actually play. Keep in mind attack and defensive values would be changed. Actually making an attack deal less bp dmg, but allowing attacks to wear the opponent down. I personally think that having larger pb zones with some overlap (extremely little) along the sides of a model to allow for more fluent PB-ing would also work well with this. This last one isn't even my idea. If someone comes across this and wants the credit, let me know, and I'll get it set up. I forgot where I saw this idea.

Hmm... {TL;DR}
1. PB still allows you to be damaged.
2. PB BP regen gone.
3. Larger BP zones.
4. Less damage per swing, to still allow fights to go on at least a little while.
5. Any change of this magnitude would need to allow a certain ratio of change to any attack and defensive values across the board.

Thanks again for taking a look and giving any feedback on such an idea.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

Nevermind, missed the author's point due to its peculiar wording

 

[Torlo50]

Nevermind, missed the author's point due to peculiar wording

Fair enough. My bad, thanks for pointing it out. Thanks for changing your vote off the board too. I want to see what people think. While polls aren't the best metric by any means, and it really only matters what Tempest and Stassin think about it (I mean, everyone matters, but their opinion's matter more then most), I want to see what the forum community thinks.

 

[PuNk]

Why would we go from one extreme to another. PB worked fine as it was for years until the BP per PB thingy happened (though I personally didn't mind that too much either). Just lower the interrupt damage, fix broken counters and remove BP per PB to go along with that and that's a start.

 

[Torlo50]

@Quinto Why would you seriously dislike the idea? Any further refinement on the idea would be appreciated from your point of view. To be fair, if you like the system the way it is, or just don't want PB to work differently from being a net positive, to being a far less negative then a normal body-hit on a player. In detail, the difference would be on on hand PB being a totally positive thing with several perks, PB regen and negating damage. On the other hand though, my idea that is, is make it so PB makes hits taken to maybe a third of the incoming damage. Still a negative, as in, you still take damage, but overall still being a good thing for the player. Any change of this magnitude would require careful testing and a whole lot of balancing for at least attack values if the idea was ever taken seriously.

Please do keep in mind that Liniyka actually caught a typo that changes my message entirely, and it was fixed. I was a bit scatterbrained and tired when the idea came to me, and I wrote this. So maybe re-read at least the first couple of sentences, where the changes I edited were.

 

[Torlo50]

Why would we go from one extreme to another. PB worked fine as it was for years until the BP per PB thingy happened (though I personally didn't mind that too much either). Just lower the interrupt damage, fix broken counters and remove BP per PB to go along with that and that's a start.

Way I see it, I wanted to think outside the idea that bp works in such a way with such reliance on pb for serious good play. This change would make duels go faster from more skilled duelists to lesser, especially when you consider how good/bad someone is at their offense. Instead of just focusing on defensive play like PB being so prominent as the current system portrays.

On a note besides my idea, I agree with you for the most part, though if you noticed in Tempest's test build, bp regen on pb was higher. I figure not having it at all. No reason to promote defensive style even more, when just taking 0 damage was quite the powerful tool in the first place. Totally for no bp pb regen myself. As far as interrupts and the like goes, totally agree with you.

(On a side note, the changelog for Tempest's Build has found itself in a lot of places, so I feel secure in putting that potential change forward. If someone want's this deleted/edited, let me know.)

 

[Hessu]

There aren't many who can pb so well that they can make duels last long. The pb system right now is perfect for this patch with the high damages, there would be no point to be defensive if you would still take damage if you pb'd.

 

[Torlo50]

There aren't many who can pb so well that they can make duels last long. The pb system right now is perfect for this patch with the high damages, there would be no point to be defensive if you would still take damage if you pb'd.

In my idea, there would be though. If you saved 2/3 or a 1/3 damage reduction on PB, and slowly was whittled away, then yeah, PB-ing would still be a major feature, but not nearly as powerful as now. You couldn't simply sit there and take it though, which, some people can. Sure, the majority, no. However, the current system, with 2 pb's out of a 4 hit combo you break much higher afterwards then you should. I think if we really want duels to be over quickly, but still be fun and engaging, then this would be the way to go.

I hear things all the time about changing the system. Things being changed are meant to do very specific things. Make sure duels still end pretty quickly, allow flow in combat, allow skill to still really matter, and allow as many different play-styles as possible. I think such a change would do well in these regards, and that is what I was thinking off when this idea came to me.

Do keep in mind that the current damages, especially certain instances of 60-80 bp damage are frowned upon by many in the community, including myself.

All these things being said, did you miss the part about larger PB zones? I heard of the larger, even with a little overlap to make things feel more fluid and "right" in separate discussions. If people could PB easier, then yes, my idea should probably be a thing. Please don't just part of the idea, but look at it as a whole. It would really be a big change, and just an idea.

So really, if someone took the current patch, and made better PB zones, which several people have been clamoring for with the current patch, let alone such a system as I cme up with, would you still have the same position on this @Hessu ? This idea is planning ahead. Assuming Tempest change's go into affect and are kept, then these things will be talked about down the line.

 

[Tempest]

On a note besides my idea, I agree with you for the most part, though if you noticed in Tempest's test build, bp regen on pb was higher. I figure not having it at all. No reason to promote defensive style even more, when just taking 0 damage was quite the powerful tool in the first place. Totally for no bp pb regen myself. As far as interrupts and the like goes, totally agree with you.)

I haven't had BP regen on PB in my build at any point (except maybe the leftovers from the very first iterations which was a long time ago). The amount that was present was the same as what's in the current build (+4).

PB zones also have to have overlap to avoid weird issues. It's also not abnormal considering the effect it's supposed to be going for (aiming to put the saber between you and the incoming swing; some angles would work for multiple types of attacks). The main thing is to make sure there's not weird disparities between what you see and where you have to aim to actually block (good example is top diagonals in current build for where to aim compared to other zones; horizontals as far as what you see vs where you aim).

Anyway onto the actual topic:
I don't think this would be good solely because it would make the system even more 1v1 oriented. It's almost impossible to 1vX without literally doing circuits around a map (if the opponents aren't dumb) because you can't defend against them reasonably (since you can't PB vs multiple people at once).

 

[Tylenol]

Not really a duelling guy, but isn't 1.5 a patch that already really encourages aggressive playstyles? Wouldn't removing the damage nullifier from PBs just throw any point of defense through the window?

 

[Hessu]

In my idea, there would be though. If you saved 2/3 or a 1/3 damage reduction on PB, and slowly was whittled away, then yeah, PB-ing would still be a major feature, but not nearly as powerful as now. You couldn't simply sit there and take it though, which, some people can. Sure, the majority, no. However, the current system, with 2 pb's out of a 4 hit combo you break much higher afterwards then you should. I think if we really want duels to be over quickly, but still be fun and engaging, then this would be the way to go.

I hear things all the time about changing the system. Things being changed are meant to do very specific things. Make sure duels still end pretty quickly, allow flow in combat, allow skill to still really matter, and allow as many different play-styles as possible. I think such a change would do well in these regards, and that is what I was thinking off when this idea came to me.

Do keep in mind that the current damages, especially certain instances of 60-80 bp damage are frowned upon by many in the community, including myself.

All these things being said, did you miss the part about larger PB zones? I heard of the larger, even with a little overlap to make things feel more fluid and "right" in separate discussions. If people could PB easier, then yes, my idea should probably be a thing. Please don't just part of the idea, but look at it as a whole. It would really be a big change, and just an idea.

So really, if someone took the current patch, and made better PB zones, which several people have been clamoring for with the current patch, let alone such a system as I cme up with, would you still have the same position on this @Hessu ? This idea is planning ahead. Assuming Tempest change's go into affect and are kept, then these things will be talked about down the line.

I am looking it as a whole. If someone can stand still and pb everything then its the opponents fault for doing easily predictable swings. Larger pb zones would be bad as well because it would make pbing too easy and wouldn't require much skill to do it. In my opinion your suggestion is bad, though i appreciate the thought. In 1.5 and 1.5.1 my duels have been fast unless there has been a player who's equally skilled. 4BP per pb isn't much and you have to pb alot to get high bp again. In my opinion, when you pb you should either take no damage at all or get a little bp back (depends how high the damages are).

 

[SomeGuy]

I remember in the days before ACM and PB, blocking swings would still make you lose 1 hp at a time. I don't remember the exact circumstances why this would happen, but eventually someone would just get down to 1 hp and then die. It was pretty weird. Made going against multiple enemies in a round very tedious because you'd start the second fight with 50 hp and he could be full, winning the attrition fight.

 

[RogueWookiee]

So, had an idea. What if we removed bp regen on pb AND pb blocking all dmg? I mean, I think it is a bad mechanic that allows duels to go on too long. We want shorter duels, ignore anything else, but this idea. There is no way to completely remove damage from an enemy swing. Think about it. We can lower dmg dealt, all around, to still allow duels that aren't over in instants. Change PB so that on PB to greatly lower incoming damage, but not all of it. No way for even the best of players to simply go on forever. Don't forget that lowering all dmg dealt (while changing defensive values at the same time as needed) will still allow duels to go on a bit, but will give a certain end date to a duel, no matter what. Suddenly, it's about wearing away the enemy. Battering through the defensive suddenly becomes a possible tactic. PB will still be hugely important, but no longer allow someone really good at it to simply PB forever (if they wanted to). I don't care how good you are, they should have to go on the offensive. Can't simply make a mistake, then 3 pb their way back to half bp. Shouldn't be a thing. Now, some say, just remove PB regen, but keep 0 bp damage. I get it, and I think that would be a step in the right direction, but not far enough. This change is only viable if you also adjust offensive and defensive values of course. Treat the bp bar less as some sort of mechanical feature, which is how it feels and plays, but a more realistic stamina of sorts. So blocking a hit still works against you, but not as badly as taking the hit. The jedi/stih only can keep up the fight based on how their stamina is in many novel books (EU based, or Legends, whatever). Most Light-saber fights go down onto the person who either makes a super stupid mistake (Anakin vs. Obi-Wan) or is better at following instinctive movements. (Dooku in all his fights). I maintain, if we consider SW universe real for a moment, that once you learn the moves, or move-set, if you will, of a style, how good a jedi/sith is based on how they can combine different styles together, and how instinctive each move is. How much they don't have to think to fight. If they rely on the force too much, and not on ingrained movements, then they are only so good as their force connection. A true duelist can actually duel, much like sword fighting in real life I would imagine.

I wonder what people think of this idea. I know it would be a big change. Hell I understand how many long-time Vets would dislike such a feature. I do think sabering would come out of such a change for the better though. I think, in the end, we focus on the BP bar too much. We need to think more outside the box. Stop considering, "What can we do to swings/moves/specials/DFA's and how it affects BP", but more on how BP actually works and is featured. Make the system feel like it flows more, less janky, if you will. Thanks to anyone who gives their considered opinion. Please don't just shout, "No way to negate all damage? No, screw you!" Just... think about how that might actually play. Keep in mind attack and defensive values would be changed. Actually making an attack deal less bp dmg, but allowing attacks to wear the opponent down. I personally think that having larger pb zones with some overlap (extremely little) along the sides of a model to allow for more fluent PB-ing would also work well with this. This last one isn't even my idea. If someone comes across this and wants the credit, let me know, and I'll get it set up. I forgot where I saw this idea.

Hmm... {TL;DR}
1. PB still allows you to be damaged.
2. PB BP regen gone.
3. Larger BP zones.
4. Less damage per swing, to still allow fights to go on at least a little while.
5. Any change of this magnitude would need to allow a certain ratio of change to any attack and defensive values across the board.

Thanks again for taking a look and giving any feedback on such an idea.

Hard to say because ive been dueling for a bit now and i have recognized that lots of duelers rely on pbing when they are low. Basically pbing and gaining bp is good reward because either the swing can be yawed really hard,spinned, or mixed up patterns can be very hard to pb at times.