Open is finally dead.

[MaceMadunusus]

As a programmer I'm sympathetic to the technical needs, but as an end user it was jarring to have things rebound, and then having to bind or sometimes double bind some keys to keep the same functionality. It will probably pay off in the long term but it definitely doesn't help first impressions

In a new game we would likely have some startup script to migrate some binds, allow double binds to be possible in menu, and give people a popup for rebinding things that couldn't be adjusted. I know how to do something like that in unreal engine pretty easily... this engine though and the UI engine being a pain in the ass as-is... not sure how it could have been done any better tbh.

 

[dwarf]

open is dead, but this epic thread is almost as good as playing it

 

[Goosto]

If MB2 had like 10 more players on average this thread wouldn't even exist

 

[Leo]

The keybind changes were pretty needed to free up space for things coming in the future. There wasn't the space to add some of the new abilities on our current list without doing stupid things like the "use" modifier we use on occasion. Freeing up some of those keys and moving things around will be more apparent when more things get added. Worth the small cost imo.

Definitely not worth for whoever new touches the game. Every single time I disarm a new player, they'll be running around for five minutes until I tell them what all buttons in the UI they need to press before seeing "class special 1" which on its own says absolutely nothing, how are they supposed to know that? The default binds are absolutely TERRIBLE and everyone new who starts this game needs to look at every single setting and bind most controls on their own. I've been saying it for months and months and yet nobody cares at all, because they're claiming that the default binds config doesnt get activated for most people. Yet it got activated for me every single reinstall and god there's been plenty. This also comes with unstable sith force powers, where JAMP users can not grip anyone at all. The whole disaster with force powers using +button9;+use_electrobinoculars that is still in this game is laughable. If there is one game in the entire world that says "fuck you" to newbies it's this game no doubt

 

[n00b]

Correct. Its a different skillset that requires problem solving, critical thinking, and pattern recognition skills (beyond just feeling like something is off). Many discussions I've had with the skillful players in MB2 often get blindsided by emotions, because they're venting frustrations. Which often makes it hard to drill things down to the core/root of the issue.



Personally, I think based on probably about a decade of having balance discussions with Sev, I think he is one of the ones that often falls into the pitfall of having design opinions that mostly benefit his style of play which can be at the detriment of others. And I also think his characterization of Tempest not listening to him for saber stuff is wildly out of place. I witnessed Tempest listening to him and discussing things with him a lot. Now as things got closer to release he may not have, which is true based on what I saw, but that is because in my opinion Sev has been an unreliable source for gameplay feedback, and because Sev didn't attend test sessions when Tempest specifically asked for saber testers in the beta channel.



You're literally talking to someone, who isn't a mechanic, but learned how to disassemble, restore, and reassemble a car in a home garage. One that is my daily driver. I figure out shit on my own. Often you can't tell if someone is unqualified until you know/test them multiple times. There are many people who are licensed plumbers or "master mechanics" who don't know shit. I've had master mechanics who have been doing things for 40 years tell me something on my car that was flat out wrong, and when I challenged them on it they got all offended. Yet, I fixed the issue myself for thousands cheaper than they wanted to do it, and I've driven 4,000 miles even through harsh winter on things I installed myself and my car is performing better than any time a professional mechanic has seen it in the last 10 years.

I literally work as a mechanic, and you are an outlier. Most people fuck up their cars and need saving the second they try to change anything.

Again, I can’t see why its so difficult for you to admit that better players (more qualified) more often than not will give better feedback.

(Edit: you LEARNED how to do it, either from someone or how to do it incorrectly through videos, key word being you LEARNED it like good players learn to be good and understand mechanics.)

 

[yle yatarn.]

Definitely not worth for whoever new touches the game. Every single time I disarm a new player, they'll be running around for five minutes until I tell them what all buttons in the UI they need to press before seeing "class special 1" which on its own says absolutely nothing, how are they supposed to know that? The default binds are absolutely TERRIBLE and everyone new who starts this game needs to look at every single setting and bind most controls on their own. I've been saying it for months and months and yet nobody cares at all, because they're claiming that the default binds config doesnt get activated for most people. Yet it got activated for me every single reinstall and god there's been plenty. This also comes with unstable sith force powers, where JAMP users can not grip anyone at all. The whole disaster with force powers using +button9;+use_electrobinoculars that is still in this game is laughable. If there is one game in the entire world that says "fuck you" to newbies it's this game no doubt

I mean there is literally a tutorial the developers created for noobs, but then was suddenly abandoned for some ambiguous reason. There is also the library which hasn’t been updated yet.

 

[SeV]

Personally, I think based on probably about a decade of having balance discussions with Sev, I think he is one of the ones that often falls into the pitfall of having design opinions that mostly benefit his style of play which can be at the detriment of others. Sev has been an unreliable source for gameplay feedback

Amazing accusation that proves you know nothing at all about me. Have you seen my proposed changes thread?

Over the years, I've changed my style of play dozens of times, and often change it to specifically counter my opponent.
You not understanding this, and thinking I'm some self-serving tier who needs to push for game-play changes that secretly benefit me, is frankly laughable.
Have you been reading the feedback channel on discord at all? I've been one of the strongest voices advocating to nerf running even though having a system with strong running would probably benefit me. Many such cases. The fact that you confound me with some random mid-tier who needs to rely on changes to the game to play well is very insulting. I've adapted to more different saber patches than most players will ever play.

 

[Hessu]

I literally work as a mechanic, and you are an outlier. Most people fuck up their cars and need saving the second they try to change anything.

Again, I can’t see why its so difficult for you to admit that better players (more qualified) more often than not will give better feedback.

(Edit: you LEARNED how to do it, either from someone or how to do it incorrectly through videos, key word being you LEARNED it like good players learn to be good and understand mechanics.)

Fix my car please

 

[WaceMindu]

Requirements to be a TOP player-

Complete knowledge of the games mechanics

Ability to understand and implement said mechanics to thier fullest potential

The ability to adapt on the spot to unpredictable strategies by fully utilizing the game mechanics

Understand win conditions.
( understand how to play the game)


Requirements to balance the game-

Organization skills


It's undeniable that this person's input and contributions would be more impactful than someone with less experience but more (organization skills). To say that thier input would be invalid just doesn't make sense. I'd rather trust the expert that is actually able to demonstrate that they fully understand what's going on...........

Agree to disagree, but your "requirements to balance the game" is just way too short of a list and is missing a lot of qualities and skills (creativity, vision, self-reflection, critical thinking, understanding the technical side of things, and so on).
Imo, organizing everyone else's work is the project leader's sole responsibility, it's not very relevant for other testers/members of the dev team.

Otherwise, I agree with Bully's point. There's so much we can do to keep this alive at a time kids don't even know how to download files/install stuff other than through a curated platform. If we could get a standalone version (free, one click-install) that'd be great, but I doubt it's possible due to licensing reasons.

I'll still recommend the mod to everyone I can, word of mouth is probably our best chance.

I mean there is literally a tutorial the developers created for noobs, but then was suddenly abandoned for some ambiguous reason. There is also the library which hasn’t been updated yet.

I believe it's been put on hold because of time constraints, nothing more.
(And the feedback about those tutorials was mostly people hurling at devs to fix the damn game instead of catering to noobs, wasn't it..)

 

[n00b]

Fix my car please

You can fix it yourself, its easy. You have driven a car plenty of times so you know how it works, right ?

 

[[SS7]Bobajack]

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I mean there is literally a tutorial the developers created for noobs, but then was suddenly abandoned for some ambiguous reason. There is also the library which hasn’t been updated yet.

Not ambiguous, we need cinematics which no one has done the time on.

(Edit: you LEARNED how to do it, either from someone or how to do it incorrectly through videos, key word being you LEARNED it like good players learn to be good and understand mechanics.)

For the most part no, I just have a pretty good memory, so I knew what went where when I took it apart, and complicated things (like when having 20 of the same type of bolt, I just used some organization via pictures and photoshop). Took tons of pictures and videos when I disassembled things. So I could reassemble it from my own disassembly.

You not understanding this, and thinking I'm some self-serving tier who needs to push for game-play changes that secretly benefit me, is frankly laughable.
Have you been reading the feedback channel on discord at all?

Maybe youve changed in the 2+ years since you were very active but that was my honest interpretation of some of your design and I'm pretty sure I said it to your face even back then in beta channel discord. However, I have not been reading the feedback channel on discord because I left the discord when I left being an active team member. It was to depressing and added stress in my life to see such disorganization and chaos. I really cannot speak to anything gameplay related to the most recent patch. I stopped being a part of development pretty early on cause I was frustrated with the direction, and stopped playing mb2 at that point as well. So I can't contest anything regarding specific gameplay complaints of R20. Just speaking from past experience.

 

[kvinto]

You can fix it yourself, its easy. You have driven a car plenty of times so you know how it works, right ?

i thought you disagreed with mace and defiant though? and yet u make their point so well lol
a good racing driver cant set the car up but he can tell you that the car is over/understeery, maybe it lacks traction etc. but also the driver might feel the car is lacking top speed and the team should sacrifice some downforce for it - that's who the players are according to them

but you need a team of mechanics that can see all the data (that you actually save time in a certain situation by more downforce instead of top speed) to figure out the correct changes to make the car suit the driver and work well - developers (wow!)

u see this analogy is very subtle, im kind of a genius

 

[n00b]

i thought you disagreed with mace and defiant though? and yet u make their point so well lol
a good racing driver cant set the car up but he can tell you that the car is over/understeery, maybe it lacks traction etc. but also the driver might feel the car is lacking top speed and the team should sacrifice some downforce for it - that's who the players are according to them

but you need a team of mechanics that can see all the data (that you actually save time in a certain situation by more downforce instead of top speed) to figure out the correct changes to make the car suit the driver and work well - developers (wow!)

u see this analogy is very subtle, im kind of a genius

You see that we have said the same thing, the “race driver” need to be a race driver, not a regular person - and then someone with the required skills (mechanic or in our case a dev that can code) to listen and fix it.

 

[kvinto]

You see that we have said the same thing, the “race driver” need to be a race driver, not a regular person - and then someone with the required skills (mechanic or in our case a dev that can code) to listen and fix it.

im glad to see u and defiant have come to an agreement, i was rooting for u

 

[n00b]

im glad to see u and defiant have come to an agreement, i was rooting for u

Except he thinks regular people are qualified race drivers, and I don’t.

 

[Defiant]

Except he thinks regular people are qualified race drivers, and I don’t.

No i think you dont have to be a race driver to lay tarmac.

 

[qwerty]

i thought you disagreed with mace and defiant though? and yet u make their point so well lol
a good racing driver cant set the car up but he can tell you that the car is over/understeery, maybe it lacks traction etc. but also the driver might feel the car is lacking top speed and the team should sacrifice some downforce for it - that's who the players are according to them

but you need a team of mechanics that can see all the data (that you actually save time in a certain situation by more downforce instead of top speed) to figure out the correct changes to make the car suit the driver and work well - developers (wow!)

u see this analogy is very subtle, im kind of a genius

ok but i think we need to take this a step further this analogy is a little off for my taste. what if you were a car manufacturer and u could get feedback from an f1 driver or from guy who drives to work and back and on holiday once or sometimes twice a year (between 300-600km each way)

edit: adjusted for accuracy

 

[LanceOfLonginus]

Why do devs hate shotguns? It would be so fun to have on arc or hero with dash or dex roll

 

[Defiant]

ok but i think we need to take this a step further this analogy is a little off for my taste. what if you were a car manufacturer and u could get feedback from an f1 driver or from guy who drives to work and back and on holiday once or sometimes twice a year (between 300-600km each way)

edit: adjusted for accuracy

You're shooting yourself in the foot here. The car manurafcturer will be designing a car for their "average" customer. It's called marketing. Car manufacturers trying to sell the race driver experiance do it by adding electronics to make up for the lack of skill for the people who can actually afford their cars who are not race drivers.