New SMOD values

[Helix]

Hello. After discussing it with several developers, I've decided to ask you guys publicly. This thread is mostly directed at server hosts and experienced admins.
To receive the value for SMOD command, power 2 with the corresponding value, like KICK is 2^0 = 1, etc.
Current SMOD values are:

BASIC       -1  all smod commands with this admindefine value do not need to have special privileges, they all just have this commands available, ex. smsay
KICK        0   allow admins to use "kick"
NEXTMAP     1   allow admins to use "nextmap"
MAP         2   allow admins to use "map"
MAPRESTART  3   allow admins to use "maprestart"
GAMETYPE    4   allow admins to use "gametype"
MBMODE      5   allow admins to use "mbmode"
BAN         6   allow admins to use "ban"
TEMPBAN     7   allow admins to use "tempban", "removetempban" & "tempbanlist"
FORCETEAM   8   allow admins to use "forceteam"
VSTR        9   allow admins to use "vstr"
CAMPAIGN    10  allow admins to use "campaign" & "campaignfile"
POLL        11  allow admins to use "poll"
UNBAN       12  allow admins to use "removeban"
SHUFFLE     13  allow admins to use "shuffle"
MUTE        14  allow admins to use "mute"
SETTK       15  allow admins to use "settk"

Here are the changes which I propose:

BASIC      -1   current + "poll"
KICK        0   allow admins to use "kick", "forceteam", "mute" & "shuffle"
MAP         1   allow admins to use "nextmap", "map", "maprestart", "campaign", "campaignfile" & "vstr"
MBMODE      2   allow admins to use "mbmode"
TEMPBAN     3   allow admins to use "tempban", "removetempban", "tempbanlist" & "settk"
BAN         4   allow admins to use "ban"
UNBAN       5   allow admins to use "removeban"

So I will go through every point briefly:

• Poll into BASIC because poll itself doesn't really do anything, it's only difference from SAY is it's easier to vote with poll.
• Merge kick, forceteam, mute and shuffle - because this set of commands allows admins to control the gameplay flow on the server, like preventing the certain player from playing, making his presence on the server less annoying and balancing the teams.
• MAP is quite obvious - give the admin control over map changes on the server.
• Removed GAMETYPE - why do we even have it?
• Settk into TEMPBAN because it does essentially the same - admin can set player's TK points to a very high amount, and just 1 TK point will be enough to get the latter one tempbanned. The messages are public so everyone will know if admin will decide to revoke his or his friends' TK points.

My main reasons to propose these changes were:

• Reaching the 2^15 value for settk, which would totally give hosts a terrible headache with summing all those crazy values.
• Wish to categorize the SMOD commands.

So basically I propose to sacrifice the flexibility of giving the unique set of available commands for each admin for the simpliness of it and generalising the admin's commands, so that it will be easier to understand, what kinds of SMOD commands he has.

Cheers.

 

[Jorge]

First off, I suggest moving this to community discussion as it will get lost in Feedback and Gameplay
2nd, remove the poll, anyone can vote in the poll. So it's not a good representation of Server Owner and lead moderator's opinions. Only proper replies by known owners should matter.

With that said I strongly disagree. Server Owners/admis are not little children who cannot do basic power or logarithm math to find out what powers they have. There is no need to sacrifice flexibility for easiness that is not needed. Generalizing is not a positive thing it is a sacrifice. Server Owners have the right to decide what exact powers they want to give their moderators, not the MBII Team. Viserys gave great examples privately on this matter, so I am sure she can explain it better than I can. The only time I could see us compressing smod commands was if we were running out of space which we aren't (and if we ever did there we can always add a 2nd value)

If you insist on admins not being smart enough to use log to find out what powers they have (lol pun) or owners not knowing how to add exponentials, then create a simple app (hosted on the site or downloadable with the mod) where you can open it, and select which powers you want to give and it gives you the value required. This would go well along with a general server config app, but that's a lot of work adding all those cvars whereas the smod thing you can do in 5 minutes.

I believe ingame after logging in you can see what smod commands are avaliable so that shows anyone what they have (but if im wrong add this in), so there is no issue on someone not "understanding" what smod cmds they have, and if you want you can also add the mini calculator ingame for people to compute a value if needed be.

All in all, a big no no as there are ways to gain "easiness" that don't involve any sacrificing anything.

 

[Cat Lady]

Helix, is there any TECHNICAL reason, which makes us benefit from merging few commands into one value? If yes, I have no problem with it. If no, I think it is unnecessary change, cause there is no real gain that we have for the price of losing flexibility. (c'mon, easier counting that you do probably once or twice in a server life isn't a gain).

As for the rest things - like, removing gametype, poll into basic, and tempban instead of settkpoints, I agree with it, completely.

/Cat Lady

 

[Noob]

In my opinion, I wouldn't sacrifice flexibility for simpleness. I like the idea though!

 

[Helix]

There's no technical reason for it.

tempban instead of settkpoints

wut wut? I meant that admin could set TK points to 699 of 700 and next TK will get player tempbanned.

remove the poll, anyone can vote in the poll. So it's not a good representation of Server Owner and lead moderator's opinions. Only proper replies by known owners should matter.

That's why I've made the votes visible.

 

[Cat Lady]

There's no technical reason for it.

wut wut? I meant that admin could set TK points to 699 of 700 and next TK will get player tempbanned.

Yes, - i thought that you're talking about removing it then, and leaving only tempban. If you meant it the other way - tk set instead of tempban - then big NO, we don't want to wait until troll/tkur does his thing, when we want to tempban him. Also, tempban command allows to set the number of rounds, which might be different that server settings for automatic TK point system.

 

[Helix]

OK, I get your point.
So far I'm less sure about merging stuff, I'll most probably do as Viserys and Jorge advised (make a calculator).
As for gametype and poll, I think it'd be ok to implement it.
Still waiting for more responses.

 

[Spaghetti]

I don't see the point in removing functionality (and backward compatibility at the same time). If we're going to change the SMOD point system and force server owners to redo their configs it should be done for some advantage. Ent has already stated there is a way of making the values more human readable.

Failing that, do as Jorge mentioned and make a simple tiny app that calculates the values. Anyone could do that right now. This is how it is done in Radiant for mapppers, so I don't see it being a problem. We can even bundle the app with MBII so everyone has it.

 

[ent]

Seems like we need varmath.

Adding extra program is bad bad bad.

 

[Puppytine]

then create a simple app (hosted on the site or downloadable with the mod)

"Something like this jorge?"
MBII smod Value Calculator
MBII smod Value Calculator

Even though I never have an experience of hosting a server, I think I may post some thoughts on this topic, would you mind?

My main reasons to propose these changes were:

• Reaching the 2^15 value for settk, which would totally give hosts a terrible headache with summing all those crazy values.
• Wish to categorize the SMOD commands.

So basically I propose to sacrifice the flexibility of giving the unique set of available commands for each admin for the simpliness of it and generalising the admin's commands, so that it will be easier to understand, what kinds of SMOD commands he has.

Sorry, but I can't say that I like this idea.

The main problem, as it was already mentioned by @Spaghetti, that it would break backwards comparability. People has their configs, and after an update their servers won't work as intended, and as we all know, most people don't read release notes.
They will just get confused and will scratch their heads trying to figure out what happened with their settings. Not a good user experience.

So the only acceptable way to implement it your way is introducing a new parameter, let's call it "g_smodConfig_#Ex" (# is a placeholder). That wouldn't break existing settings, at least.

But even having a new variable, it's still not good enough.
It's not a big difference between bitmask of 16 or bitmask of 6. It's still a bitmask.

From one side, calculating even current values isn't too hard, it's not about "basic power or logarithm", it's just about adding pretty small integer numbers. And people don't do too often, I even don't think that a lot servers actually use this "fine tuning" ability.

From other side, looking in the config and trying to find out what those numbers mean isn't very user friendly, and it won't be user friendly if you simply reduce size of values.
Will be much better if those settings became human readable, something like this:

seta g_smodConfig_6Ex ban tempban map removetempban

That *would* make a difference, but it's up to developers to decide if they want to spend time and implement this.

And yes, flexibility shouldn't be just thrown away. Even if this flexibility a little overkill, it's already realized, some people already put an effort to realize it, and some other people (@Viserys) already use it.

 

[Spaghetti]

"Something like this jorge?"
MBII smod Value Calculator

Thank you for making this. It reminds me of the server configurator BG used to host.

 

[Jorge]

yep. We should host that on the site somewhere and throw in a link on the readme and on the server.cfg
Good job

 

[Helix]

Why are you sorry? I wouldn't create a public thread if I didn't know that some people didn't like this idea so that we can discuss it.
Nice job with this calculator btw <3

 

[Puppytine]

I've improved smods calculator. Now it's a bit more like smods editor, hope you'll like it.
But script became a little complicated, and I'm not totally sure that it's bug-free. So please, if you will experience any errors, post detailed info in this thread, so I could fix it.