MBII Content Permissions for FM3RE - Hello MBII Community

[Deleted member 1872]

Hello MBII Community, my name is Blackwyrm^Heart and I am the site manager for phrgempire.com

My clan (now VHRG) is known for its ForceMod III modules, most recently ForceMod III - Return of The Emperor (FM3RE).

This thread's purpose is not to self-promote FM3RE however, rather, I want to reach out to the MBII team in regard to permissions for the use of some of MBII's models, icons, and player model sounds. I figured that this forum would be the best place to start, but please let me know if there is a better outlet for me to reach out to you guys at in regard to file permissions.

FM3RE was first released on JKHub and my website in December, and its v1.01 release was in January. I never reached out to you guys in regard to file permissions up until now, although I did try to give as much credit as possible to the developers for said files in the readme files (there were a lot of them).

Recently, the staff at JKHub reached out to me and asked me to contact the MBII team here and have a dialogue regarding the borrowed MBII files in FM3RE.

My goal is to be as transparent as possible with the MBII team here so that there is no ambiguity in regard to the use of the borrowed MBII files in FM3RE.

Moreover, I would like to take this chance to clarify that FM3RE is not meant to compete with MBII or any other relevant mods, rather, it's only purpose is to maximize FM3's potential in up scaling it to today's standards.

FM3RE would not have been possible had it not been for each individual developer's hard work in creating their mods, and I have tried my best in giving as much credit as possible to them by including every readme.txt for every file I used in the .rar file readme packs included in the FM3RE download.

I'm open for any conversations via this thread or PM, please let me know whichever is more preferable.

I hope we can have a conversation sometime soon and I look forward to any future communications, may the force be with you all.

Blackwyrm

 

[Jorge]

I don't represent the MBII Team in this post. This is my individual opinion and does not reflect the view of the MBII Team:

You should look at the readme files, specifically the MBII Maps-Models Credits.txt file. As some of the content used in MBII (with permission of course) does not belong to MBII and therefore the MBII Team cannot give other people permission to use it. So you would have to contact those parties. An example would be HapSlash's Obi-Wan Episode 3 model afaik.

Anyway, as for specific permissions for stuff that is indeed part of MBII (e.g.: mb2 logo) you need to come up with a thorough list of specific items you need permission for and again using the readme files contact those mb2 developers specifically. So first order of business is write a list of the content in question. Try to contact people and if you can't contact some try and post here and maybe someone can help.

As for having used things without permission, even if having given credit on a readme, well it probably was not a good idea and I do see why JKHub would ask you to reach out to the authors. It will be up to those individual authors at the end of the day to decide what they want to do with their rightful content.

Good luck

 

[Spaghetti]

Jorge pretty much covered it. A list is necessary for your question as we cannot give carte blanch to use anything. Most of the player model content was made by third parties so you would have to contact the relevant artists directly. We still have around a dozen original models though.

 

[Deleted member 1872]

Thank you Jorge for your fast reply and insight, I appreciate it.

I will certainly take everything you said into consideration, thanks again.

May the force be with you,

Blackwyrm

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Out of curiosity what happens if the authors can't be reached? Due to being inactive/dead/unreachable.

Dead in the water? Can't use it

I think a last will and testament should be required for all contributors. What they want/allow in the event of their departure/afk status.

Permission to use so long as you cite credit?
Permission denied completely?
Up to current active members?

In other words, whose got the power of attorney and where the wills at

 

[Deleted member 1872]

Out of curiosity what happens if the authors can't be reached? Due to being inactive/dead/unreachable.

Dead in the water? Can't use it

I think a last will and testament should be required for all contributors. What they want/allow in the event of their departure/afk status.

Permission to use so long as you cite credit?
Permission denied completely?
Up to current active members?

In other words, whose got the power of attorney and where the wills at

I concur with Chaos the Chaotic entirely.

The issue I take with permissions of this sort is the idea that if I were to get one "no, you may not use this content" sort of response, for whichever reason (I've never understood this position), or no response at all, that I would then have to alter my module in order for it to be approved on a site rather than my own.

And for what?

Now, if I were developing a mod for profit then that would be an entirely different situation because I would then be using someone else's work for my own gain. However, that is not the case here. Nor has it ever been the case within the JKIII community (unless we were to include the old KOTF situation).

My module, FM3RE, as well as many other modules which have been released, are completely free to download and, if anything, the developers for said files used should be content with the fact that their mod(s) is/are being advertised and enjoyed by the community.

The problem we have currently within the community, and quite honestly it has been a problem for far too long, is this idea that there is some sort of competition between these free modules. I see no competition between free modules, as there is no monetary value in them. I don't profit from my module. Developing mods for FM3 is not my job, it is a hobby I do in my free time.

What I propose is that we begin to look at the big picture, not just its pieces, and, finally, take ourselves a little less seriously.

Ported models are an entirely different issue as they are a legal grey area, however, the question of permissions in regard to both borrowed and fully credited content within the community is a community developed issue which we, as a community, have control over. Our current "system" for permissions is completely open to abuse for sabotage; sabotage of original ideas and content alike.

JKIII is over a decade old now, so if we are to continue to carry its legacy, we have to take a different approach toward permissions.

May the force be with you all,

Blackwyrm

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Actually, some recent posts by members of the team in some other thread I can't recall the name of right now(within the last 2 months) expressed opinions contrary to the hard line stance that they took for years regarding ported models and permissions in general.

I could have sworn that even now that they don't have permissions for some of the shit they have in mb Could be wrong but that included everything from some skins, models, sounds, etc.

And really, Kotf? That really is a bygone era. All those retarded suckers that bought into it A decade old and still a hilarious memory.

Anyway, originally it was a no-no because it was impolite. My opinion and I think most others... is once you release it publicly, as long as you're not benefiting off it monetarily, or claiming it as your own I suppose, it's fair game.

Though it still baffles me why the removal and public support of old cc was withdrawn because the original creator decided, after he released it, that he didn't want others to play it....after 3 years of use?

Public Domain/Free/Credit - Fair use!!

Jedi Academy was released in 2003. The game is older than some of the active players.
Honestly, you should try or due your due diligence in at least attempting to contact the authors.

But if they don't respond. I ain't saying nuttin.

 

[Jorge]

Let's not get onto a legal discussion of what is right and wrong. All that matters is to respect the authors (who spent their time working on their content) and who have all right legally to the content's distribution.

The fact of the matter is that JKIII and some of the work precedes popular use of GPL or any of the more distribution-friendly license. So at the end of the day the author's wishes must be respected. The issue of whether you should modify your mod because you did not get permission should have never been an issue as you should have never started using or distributing content that did not belong to you. The moment you uploaded this to jkhub you were fully aware you were doing something without permission. You knew the risk and can be prosecuted if an author wanted.

The old Cloudcity map in MBII was used under permission, but that author decided to remove it. And we had to do it. Players were not happy, but it was the right thing to do. This is the game you play when you don't own the content. But you have to abide with it or use all original content.

You should have never uploaded something of that sort without permission and, frankly, I agree JKHub should take it down until this issue is sorted. The last thing you want is some angry author making you look bad and affecting your mod's popularity. So better to fix it first and re-upload again.

PS: And all content in MBII is used with permission or is our own content. There is nothing there without permission.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Now that the pr line is out of the way
News models to come ? | Page 2 | Movie Battles II Community

The times are chang'un.

 

[Jorge]

Thats just a discussion. I highly doubt we will ever bundle a ported model in the mod.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Not publicly. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

This still doesn't address the question - does the team have a waiver/disclaimer for submitting their work in place for the mod? And if not, why not?
Theoretically any dev, current or former could rise up out of the ocean and demand virgin sacrifice or to cease and desist using...flame effects! this texture, that map, that line of code.

 

[Jorge]

When you join MBIi you sign a few legal documents basically saying anything you make belongs to mb2 and not you. So you cant backtrack there. Most workplaces do this. So we are safe there. Does that answer your question?

 

[Spaghetti]

When you join MBIi you sign a few legal documents basically saying anything you make belongs to mb2 and not you. So you cant backtrack there. Most workplaces do this. So we are safe there. Does that answer your question?

This isn't quite accurate, It's more complicated than that. Regardless, this isn't a thread for that topic.

 

[Deleted member 1872]

Let's not get onto a legal discussion of what is right and wrong. All that matters is to respect the authors (who spent their time working on their content) and who have all right legally to the content's distribution.

The fact of the matter is that JKIII and some of the work precedes popular use of GPL or any of the more distribution-friendly license. So at the end of the day the author's wishes must be respected. The issue of whether you should modify your mod because you did not get permission should have never been an issue as you should have never started using or distributing content that did not belong to you. The moment you uploaded this to jkhub you were fully aware you were doing something without permission. You knew the risk and can be prosecuted if an author wanted.

The old Cloudcity map in MBII was used under permission, but that author decided to remove it. And we had to do it. Players were not happy, but it was the right thing to do. This is the game you play when you don't own the content. But you have to abide with it or use all original content.

You should have never uploaded something of that sort without permission and, frankly, I agree JKHub should take it down until this issue is sorted. The last thing you want is some angry author making you look bad and affecting your mod's popularity. So better to fix it first and re-upload again.

PS: And all content in MBII is used with permission or is our own content. There is nothing there without permission.

By including all original readmes and providing full credit to the included mods and their developers, that is giving respect to the authors. I claim none of the content included to be my own, only the way in which I put them all together into one complete package is my own work.

Knew the risk and be prosecuted how? As Chaos the Chaotic noted, legally speaking, Public Domain/Free/Credit = Fair use, and I'm not sure how that gets lost in translation with the JKIII community.

Moreover, I have to disagree with the idea that I never should have created something for the community with material contributed by said community for no monetary value whatsoever. Many players enjoy FM3RE and appreciate its content, thus, appreciating the content developers. The developers are given and deserve full credit for their created content.

Whether or not JKHub decides to approve my module or not is completely and totally up to them and I take no issue in any final decisions they make regarding the approval of the mod, it is their website and I lose no sleep over it. It's just unfortunate really.

FM3RE, as is such with all FM3 modules developed by the VHRG Empire, will continue to be available for download, for free, on our website, to be enjoyed by the community.

I appreciate everyone's participation in this thread, and as always, may the force be with you all.

Blackwyrm

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

This isn't quite accurate, It's more complicated than that. Regardless, this isn't a thread for that topic.

Do you guys have to poke your thumb and sign it with a blood print?

 

[Jorge]

^ they make us take pics of us nude so if we ever leak code they will leak our nudes.

By including all original readmes and providing full credit to the included mods and their developers, that is giving respect to the authors.

Imagine that you make a rape mod or something generally viewed badly by the media such as some mod where you recreate some terrorist attack or mass shooting. Then you put in there models by Hapslash or a map by Sith J cull or w/e, next thing you know some news media picks it up and voila, now you have involved those people in very negative light as all they have to do is look at readme and see who was involved. This is ofcourse an extreme case, but does go to show that it should be up to the authors where they want to see their content. Also the models they did are not public domain. I am not sure where you got that from. Using the US clause (which is not international law) only says you can use it to comment other people's work etc, not distribute it by any means.

The point of the matter is this. Say an author says no and wants their model removed from your mod (maybe they think it's a crappy model and they moved on to better stuff and dont want to see it used, or they just dont feel like it). Are you going to take it down from jkhub and your website, modify the mod and reupload, or are you going to leave it there against their will? If you leave it you are going to look like a douche especially if the author actively campaigns against it. So why risk the negative publicity, just fix things before they get out of hand. Cause by the amount of content from other people without permission one of them is bound to go psycho on you. Anyway just my opinion. Like I said good luck, and please do post the list of the content soon so at least from the mb2 side this is solved.

 

[Deleted member 1872]

^ they make us take pics of us nude so if we ever leak code they will leak our nudes.



Imagine that you make a rape mod or something generally viewed badly by the media such as some mod where you recreate some terrorist attack or mass shooting. Then you put in there models by Hapslash or a map by Sith J cull or w/e, next thing you know some news media picks it up and voila, now you have involved those people in very negative light as all they have to do is look at readme and see who was involved. This is ofcourse an extreme case, but does go to show that it should be up to the authors where they want to see their content. Also the models they did are not public domain. I am not sure where you got that from. Using the US clause (which is not international law) only says you can use it to comment other people's work etc, not distribute it by any means.

The point of the matter is this. Say an author says no and wants their model removed from your mod (maybe they think it's a crappy model and they moved on to better stuff and dont want to see it used, or they just dont feel like it). Are you going to take it down from jkhub and your website, modify the mod and reupload, or are you going to leave it there against their will? If you leave it you are going to look like a douche especially if the author actively campaigns against it. So why risk the negative publicity, just fix things before they get out of hand. Cause by the amount of content from other people without permission one of them is bound to go psycho on you. Anyway just my opinion. Like I said good luck, and please do post the list of the content soon so at least from the mb2 side this is solved.

After heavy deliberation and thought, I do concur with the majority of what it is that you are saying Jorge and I appreciate your activity in this thread, it helps me out a lot.

To be fair though, the case you presented was so extreme to the point where it would be ridiculous to even compare it to the matter at hand. They are totally and completely different cases and anyone involved in or aware of FM3RE's case will realize this.

However, you still had a point. Additionally, me as well as anyone else involved in this thread would have to see the statute or law in place that clearly states that these free mods, published for free, and are downloadable for free, do not belong to the public domain. I hold my ground on my stance because I have been informed from a reliable source that these free mods are indeed in the public domain.

I also want to make clear that in the example you gave of the author saying no and wanting their mod removed from FM3RE, I would indeed remove and re-upload FM3RE if it was a reasonable and sound request. Such in the case that they had created a better model than the one used and would like to see the updated model in FM3RE instead. Plus, I would typically do so regardless because I want FM3RE to stay up to date, and in my doing so, I would update or add any involved readme and give credit to the developer once again.

As long as FM3RE is free and the content within it is free for download, I will stand by my creative vision, and I'm sorry if that offends anyone for whatever absurd reason. It's free advertising and whoever downloads FM3RE will be able to enjoy whichever mod the developer created and appreciate their work. I will never be the enemy in this, in my opinion.

FM3RE is a melting pot of a variety of developers' creative visions, all merged together for the JKIII community to enjoy, and stands as testament to the JKIII community's combined progress in modding JKIII and continuing its legacy.

I digress though, I would absolutely like to resolve the issue involving MB2 content ASAP as that is the primary concern as of this moment in time. If you would be up to it, I would like to work more closely with you on this Jorge.

Here is the link to the latest version of FM3RE, v1.01. If you have the time, please do give it a look just so that you can get a better idea of the content used and how I went about giving credit. Once again though, your involvement in this process is totally up to you.

*LINK REMOVED*

Please let me know, and may the force be with you Jorge.

Blackwyrm

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Knew the risk and be prosecuted how? As Chaos the Chaotic noted, legally speaking, Public Domain/Free/Credit = Fair use, and I'm not sure how that gets lost in translation with the JKIII community

It gets lost in translation because it is wrong. That is not how fair use works and you would lose in court with that.

Overall, the best person to talk to is Spaghetti for all of this. If there is anything you have taken from within MB2 that in our own credits list references people that have been on the MB development team, then you can also ask those people directly.

 

[Deleted member 1872]

It gets lost in translation because it is wrong. That is not how fair use works and you would lose in court with that.

Overall, the best person to talk to is Spaghetti for all of this. If there is anything you have taken from within MB2 that in our own credits list references people that have been on the MB development team, then you can also ask those people directly.

Thank you, big brother.

May the force be with you,

Blackwyrm