Kills, Deaths and Score

[GoodOl'Ben]

Hey guys!

I'm currently feeling very revolutionary and radical, so bear with me here.

One thing that I've come to notice with MB2 from time to time is that we've looked at this game with blinds on for so long that we've made some really wonky decisions and solutions. One of my favorite pet peeves is kills and deaths.

STORY TIME!

Right now if you kill a soldier with 3 lives, you will get 0.3333333 kills out of this. In turn the dead soldier will receive 0.333333 deaths. The reasoning here a long time ago was that we had soldiers give off a kill only when their last life expired. Then people didn't like this as people often rushed for the last soldier and killing the previous lives were meaningless. Then we introduced the system of giving 0.3333 kills for this and deaths would amount to 0.3333 as well. Sounds about fair right? Yeah kinda great!

Let's go forward a few builds. People felt it was unfair for deaths to be tracked like this for solds. You might be alive at the end of the round but you might've still accumulated a death this round due to dying once and filling up your fractional death pool. This sucked.

We changed it so that the sold would have to lose all lives to get a death. Fair since a Jedi won't get a death for losing 50 HP during a round right? This lead to solds camping with their last lives which could sometimes frustrate players. As of late we have returned back to the system we had years back.

Often from new players I've heard confused questions like: "I killed a player but I didn't get a kill?" This got me thinking if we should think bigger.

For years now we've had a scoreboard that tracks score earned by players and it's a decent measure of a player's input and ranks people based on their score/round ratio. The score earned for kills uses fractional kills to a degree: Killing a soldier will give you 4 points, killing a jedi will give you 12 points. Great! The score system seems to be the best way of tracking a player's impact on the round and K/D is more like a nice-to-have thing on the side. So now's the time for the big question: What if we made all kills count as kills and a player is counted as dead when their last life is killed.

There are some really cool things that would happen from this.

• No newbie confusion regarding hidden kill/death tally mechanics
• Your K/D stats would look far nicer as a single-lifer
• A positive K/D will not be nearly as hard to achieve

Technically all the important valuation for a soldier's life is handled in score, so we could turn K/D to match actual kills and deaths. In similar fashion we can bloat assists to match this since assists also were tallied in fractions.

I'll put this change in if people like it.

 

[Crusade010]

I'd say yes since soldiers are very capable of taking down most classes in only 1 life, especially if they have a grenade (or grenade spam), as well as clones. I've also thought this for a while ever since I noticed that the deaths didn't carry over rounds making each round a fresh start which is a bit ridiculous.

 

[Apelsin]

i suggest to simply add some extra kill info at the bottom of the scoreboard, smth like this:
kills: 10 (7+2.66)
deaths: 0 (0+0.33)

 

[Defiant]

I've always hated how scores are tracked. Especially K/D ratio.

We're more than just a first person shooter. We're a squad based game and K/D ratio especially does not reflect the squad like nature. For years my personal style has been less about getting kills and more about helping the team win. For example, I spend a lot of time as a jedi/sith doing suppression, making sure the enemy doesn't try and throw grenades, preventing gunners from retreating etc. which doesn't count towards either score or K/D (bar the occasional assist from a push or slap). I don't know if there's a good game play mechanic to measure more passive contributions, but I strongly feel like it would contribute to the squad.

 

[eezstreet]

I vote no, because it will encourage players to go single-life classes and aim for kills instead of working together as soldiers/ET to complete the objective. Adding to a player's death count will add an extra reason for people to ignore soldier and ET (which are already the least played classes) in favor of going Jedi/Sith which are overplayed as it is.

I like the idea of either removing the K/D counter or making it show as a decimal, to a maximum of 2 decimal places. The latter is least difficult to do and will alienate the least players. I'd also be in favor of revising the assists system to reward multiple players and also show on the scoreboard.

 

[FRANK LAMPART]

BEN, ASSISTS ON SCOREBOARD!! Pleaaase!

Anyway, eez nailed it on the head. It would discourage people from using the sold class as people are too worried about their K/D ratio. Individually, they are the weakest class and if they keep dying (as they usually do) it's potentially three deaths in one round.

They are, however, the deadliest if there's a group of them always sticking together. Solds have the best gun in the game and will virtually do as much damage as anyone else. If they die, they will regroup again and again, literally wearing down the enemy team to death. So I think if this was implemented, people would only play sold if they were teaming up with other solds.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Something that could also be done if people want to try it, is something Dirty Bomb does in its end-round leaderboard.

Instead of showing K/D/A and Score. Show multiple types of score. Combat Score, Support Score, Objective Score, Total Score.

• Combat Score: How much damage you have dealt to the enemy team.
• Support Score: How many shots you have blocked with a lightsaber (based off of FP damage rather than #shots), use of tracker darts, force powers, conc grenades, blobs, shields removed via emp nades. Could possibly include damage dealt to FP IDK.
• Objective Score: Pretty obvious, but completing primary, secondary objectives as well as additional points gained by damaging panels (like in current dotf prior to throne), or gaining capture progress on conquest nodes.
• Total Score: Added up individual scores. Then you could add the rounds part to show their average contribution per round.

This removes the whole K/D egowhoring stuff as people can be hugely beneficial to the team in just a support or objective based capacity. Killing is not the only way to win a round. It removes some of the negative aspects of showing things like deaths on the scoreboard focusing on positive contributions only. This entirely gets rid of the worry regarding multiple life classes, as that is no longer a consideration.

 

[S o l d i e r]

This would give soldiers too many deaths, you basically won't be able to get a positive K/D.

Instead of showing K/D/A and Score. Show multiple types of score. Combat Score, Support Score, Objective Score, Total Score.

I don't think we need all those categories, one is enough for Total Score that would include all those aspects. I'm not in favour of removing K/D, but it should show fractions somewhere.

I already stated my opinion about these topics in one of my previous posts:

I don't think each Soldier life should be one death. Soldiers are designed to be squishy/less powerful, but have 3 lives in return. Their 3 lives are basically one life of a one life class. Giving them a death for each life would be like giving, for example, ARCs one death for each 66 points of armor/hp they lose (they have 200 armor/hp max).
On the point of score system points, it should be like this:
- Damage should increase score points
- Teamdamage should decrease them
- Kills should increase score points
- Teamkills should decrease them
- Assists should increase score points
- Negative teamassists should decrease them
- Doing the objectives should increase score points
For every each one of these the score points gained/lost should be displayed along with their corresponding messages, except for damage and teamdamage which don't have any messages.
Edit: The message for teamdamage ("Don't attack teammates!") should also say that your score points were decreased. I've seen this message having "Your points have been deducted." after it in jaMME with an older bugged cgamex86.dll. See the beginning of this video where it is shown:

Spoiler

Showing how much score you get/lose for what you do would put more emphasis on score.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I don't think we need all those categories, one is enough for Total Score that would include all those aspects.

Showing how much score you get/lose for what you do would put more emphasis on score.

This shows you what you did. It doesn't show others what you contributed. That is why you need the other categories in this case.

 

[Damn Polak]

A positive K/D will not be nearly as hard to achieve

not for multi-life classes tho

 

[Hexodious]

Yes, and keep K/D to the personal stats section where assists are. So many people get nasty in chat because someone has a 1:1 or less ratio, they just want to play the game.

I'd prefer just Score/Rounds (with more points given to objectives than there is now with some sort of AOE around objectives to give assist objective points).

I.e. if I hack throne and I got 3 buddies covering me, give them objective-assist points for being in my vicinity.

Things that give score needs to be re-done anyway, for example you should get assist-points for doing FP/BP damage, and the objective example above.

Kill: +6 (Personally Tracked)
Assist: +4 (Personally Tracked)
Being near the killer/killed: +2

Objective: +12
Near objective completer: +6

I include being near the killer/killed because there are plenty of example where someone even being near the enemy assists me getting a snipe to kill them, you also reward people sticking together as a team and playing for the objective. It would still be way less, but would help a long way of keeping the scores more in-line with each other, and the people getting all the kills would still be at the top.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

not for multi-life classes tho

Remember that killing a soldier as a soldier will give you a kill. If you're not racking up a kill per life as a sold, you're not a good sold.

Yes, and keep K/D to the personal stats section where assists are. So many people get nasty in chat because someone has a 1:1 or less ratio, they just want to play the game.

I'd prefer just Score/Rounds (with more points given to objectives than there is now with some sort of AOE around objectives to give assist objective points).

I.e. if I hack throne and I got 3 buddies covering me, give them objective-assist points for being in my vicinity.

Things that give score needs to be re-done anyway, for example you should get assist-points for doing FP/BP damage, and the objective example above.

Kill: +6 (Personally Tracked)
Assist: +4 (Personally Tracked)
Being near the killer/killed: +2

Objective: +12
Near objective completer: +6

I include being near the killer/killed because there are plenty of example where someone even being near the enemy assists me getting a snipe to kill them, you also reward people sticking together as a team and playing for the objective. It would still be way less, but would help a long way of keeping the scores more in-line with each other, and the people getting all the kills would still be at the top.

To me this (minus proximity tracking) sounds like the most realistic change that doesn't entail a total revamp and months of development and iteration, but nudges us in the right direction.

Better visualization of score earned for players can easily be tied in with this and we'll have something real nice and transparent.

Either way I'd urge people to not think too far ahead. Just think of a good basis that can be expanded upon. Emphasizing score like this would be great.

In a later iteration we could bring in things like damage dealt, damage blocked as well as knockdowns/stuns dealt to the score easily too. All sorts of methods of measuring impact. Eventually move towards what Mace is talking about.

Either way I think K/D ought to actually be kills and deaths. If a soldier is killed, he's dead. The current fractional system feels like a bandaid, not a final solution.

Babysteps.

 

[Lervish]

Showing how much score you get/lose for what you do would put more emphasis on score.

This is very relevant. In the bigger picture we should indeed put more emphasis on score especially via visible rewarding of teamwork and completion of objectives. This could be in console after the death message or on the screen along with the "You killed X" messages.

This would give soldiers too many deaths, you basically won't be able to get a positive K/D.

Optimal situation is where having a positive K/D is considered less relevant in people's minds. Ideally an ego score would just be a huge score/rounds ratio, not K/D, which easily encourages lone-wolf, selfish gameplay.

To the poll I voted yes since a kill should be a kill and a death should be a death. Simple and clearly indicated: if you get a "You killed X" message then you should also get a +1 kill. If you don't it's ambiguous and unclear design. Soldiers are buying more lives, not more HP, so the comparison to other classes HP isn't really solid in my opinion.

 

[Manyo]

I voted Yes, because i see a lot of players barely making 3 kills in 10 rounds. This got to be more frustrating than any number the death counter shows.
Most of them are playing as saberists, so they wouldn't be effected by the problems of this system. Which are obviously the k/d ratios of multi life classes, especially soldiers. 3 deaths per round is hard to keep up with, so i'd propose an asymmetrical counting system:
Any kill counts as 1, but dying as soldier only counts as 0.34, 0.5 or 0.67 deaths depending on how those values would turn out on public servers.
You could do the same to 2 life classes with higher values but i'm not sure if that would be necessary. This would lead to a more positive scoreboard overall while still giving accurate feedback on your k/d performance.
I support the idea of putting more emphasis on a score system to make support players feel more valuable, but you shouldn't remove k/d completely, it's important for a lot of people and you shouldn't deny them those numbers, you are not able to force certain players to be more team oriented this way.

 

[Gargos]

I kinda do like the current system. However if we go with this, then I would go completely with hex' idea.

 

[KaineMAF]

I believe they should count as full kills. Let's revise what a kd Is, it's your kill to death. If I kill a soldier 3 times, I get 3 kills, not 1. The current system definitely needs to change. Im kinda on the fence on deathes for solds though, 5 bad rounds and you have a 0/15 ratio. I think the last life for deathes should count as a solds death, and all 3 of his lives count as kills.

 

[Gumba]

Although I agree with most of the people here that doing obj/assists etc should matter more than it does now, I don't think K/D should be removed from the scoreboard.
Makes the game look casual.

And for the love of god no "+50 Points / Objective hacked" popups. Modern game cancer popups can stay away from here, next thing gonna be hitmarkers and levelups

 

[Luna]

Although I agree with most of the people here that doing obj/assists etc should matter more than it does now, I don't think K/D should be removed from the scoreboard.
Makes the game look casual.

And for the love of god no "+50 Points / Objective hacked" popups. Modern game cancer popups can stay away from here, next thing gonna be hitmarkers and levelups

don't forget the loot boxes

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Although I agree with most of the people here that doing obj/assists etc should matter more than it does now, I don't think K/D should be removed from the scoreboard.
Makes the game look casual.

And for the love of god no "+50 Points / Objective hacked" popups. Modern game cancer popups can stay away from here, next thing gonna be hitmarkers and levelups

I would keep any +50 points etc thing optional (on by default as this will help new players adopt the concepts) and as low key as possible.

I'm lazy so in favor of removing and altering as little as possible. My key interest in all this is logic and making the game feel as rewarding to play as it can. I sometimes wonder how the new players feel when they've been struggling to make their first kill for rounds on end, then they end up doing it and it's on a soldier. "Where's my kill?" A real tragedy.

I believe they should count as full kills. Let's revise what a kd Is, it's your kill to death. If I kill a soldier 3 times, I get 3 kills, not 1. The current system definitely needs to change. Im kinda on the fence on deathes for solds though, 5 bad rounds and you have a 0/15 ratio. I think the last life for deathes should count as a solds death, and all 3 of his lives count as kills.

This sounds like a good angle. This solves soldiers getting sucky K/D. To be semantic here we'd be talking about a Kill/Defeat ratio, not a Kill/Death ratio.

Good stuff. I'm feeling a spec coming on.

 

[S o l d i e r]

I would keep any +50 points etc thing optional (on by default as this will help new players adopt the concepts) and as low key as possible.

They can be put into console messages too, doesn't need to be a pop-up.