Discussion in 'Feedback & Gameplay' started by GoodOl'Ben, Oct 10, 2017.
This sounds good to me. Essentially if you lose by objective or by time its a +1 to defeat, would certainly make people care about defending more. Need to sort any sort of /spectate or /recon(?) while in the middle of a round not giving a 'Defeat' as well. Stop people hiding or cheating the system to protect ego-scorez.
While what you write does make sense, I think it is important to also think about how that fits the game.
Soldier class is entirely based around having multiple lifes, it is not a matter of preference - the slow movement speed, slow get up, and the low hp and shield prove that.
Thus I think the design is flawed - if you base a class on being weak but having multiple lifes, then giving it death point for each death, when it is essentially a vital part of the class to have multiple lifes, is a bad idea.
On the other hand in games like battlefront a soldier is a pretty durable class, so it makes sense that killing a soldier awards him with death point.
It would be a different story for MB, IMO, if you could play a soldier with 1 life and had regular hp (meaning 100 hp) and moderate speed, with reinforcements being an option (and selecting multiple lifes would decrease your health pool and speed slightly, until you got to 50 hp and current soldier speed at 3 lifes). I still wouldn't be for the idea of 1 death point for 1 death for soldier, but it would be more bearable then.
It is also important to note that this change would not only affect soldiers (although they would suffer the most).
A clone, for example, is quite balanced when it comes to choosing a 2 life clone or 1 life CR3 clone. However if it became apparent that playing CR3 clone meant better score (since no change to clone would happen, except that 2 life clone would get 1 deaht point for each death), you may see uprising of the more annoying game styles, which would make the game less playable (I'm talking about cr3 vs flinch mechanic here).
THE CASE FOR SCOREWHORING
There are too many jedi/sith in MB2. You know it, I know it.
A simple way to incentivize the use of gunners without any nerfs/buffs would be to revert death counting so that ETs/Solds only get a death if they lose all their lives. This may not seem "fair" to many, but this is immaterial--what I propose is the direction of the energies of a few tryhards towards gunning as opposed to sabering.
Consider this: if I'm concerned about scorewhoring, and I can't contain by going ET and playing my last life super safe, then I, have no reason not to go Jedi (especially considering that most real-world gameplay is currently being done on Deathstar, a map heavily favored towards Jedi). Jedi is the easiest role with which to protect your life. Therefore, it attracts every tryhard currently playing mb2, and this is as sad as it is boring.
Furthermore, as has been stated in this thread, this change would likely give rise to more ET/soldier squads and objective play which, again, is good.
Those who argue that all kills/death should represent "whole" kills/deaths are denying score as a factor which influences the way people play the game. Barely anyone plays soldier now, they're weak. Are you telling me if we make it so that every time you play soldier you get THREE deaths, that's not going to further decrease desire to play that class?
I think soldier is a super strong class. But reading through the discussion - Ben has recently been talking about each kill counting as a kill and deaths wouldn't even exist, it would simply be defeats (round losses), so dying with lives wouldn't matter unless it was your last, just like you describe.
Either way I am in favour of every kill just being a kill and not having any sort of deaths tracked, [Kills/Rounds] is a more impressive stat than [Kills/Deaths]. Someone going all out and killing 5-6 people a round but dying > someone with a 4:1 ratio because they are hiding/playing ultra safe after getting a kill.
But yeah I agree, this would make people worry less about what class they can survive best with and just play whatever.
I'd be down for that. Changed my vote to yes.
I think i'd like that too. You could show how many rounds your team won and lost while you were personally playing, plus your kills and maybe a support score (assists could be within this or extra). All values together add up to your total score which ranks you within your team.
can we not be so ego about score and just play obj/general?
Said no one ever.
Just put it all on-screen. Kills, deaths, reinforcement deaths, assists, objectives won, lost, dmg dealth, hos slapped, pimps slapped, I've lost track....
Which is precisely why we need a tracker for all things track-worthy!
How many pistol kills?
Whats my hit rate/Accuracy?
How many times have I killed Lando, a black man?
Wait, we got that already.
Strange to be tracking that.
Totally not racist
This definitely already happens
I think a general good spec is roughly this:
All kills are equal: kills count as +1 kill
Death repurposed to Defeat: losing your last life counts as a +1 Defeat
Add better indicators for score earning: You killed Padawan (+12) (console feed only)
After this would be implemented, further patches can explore potential additions such as:
Give score from damage dealt
Give score from knockdowns caused
Give score from stuns caused
Give score from grouping
Give score from denying objectives
Give score from blasterfire blocked
Give score from unique kills (melee, special move, kata, mario, air snipe, headshot, air blob, mblock)
Give score from sprees (double kill, triple kill, quad kill, mega kill, MOMOMOMONSTERKILLKILLKILLKILLKILLkillkill...)
I think a direction like this could give some nice positive reinforcement. A good game rewards its players when they succeed. Providing some light indicators for these would go a long way.
Have the following people voted based on the discussion direction or based on the intial post? Can you give reasoning as to why the current system is more encouraging to players compared to the one suggested in this post?
@S o l d i e r
I voted no cos you wanted to give 1 death per 1 soldier/et/com/clone life.
I still think that giving kills for each life, but not deaths would make a disbalance in K/D, there will be more kills than deaths and much more people will have positive scores than negative. It's like a false satisfaction system, but the satisfaction will still be the same, as the bar for it would be higher - it won't be only to get positive score, but more than it. Plus, then everyone will rush multiple life classes cos they are easier to kill than 1 life classes and give the same reward.
So I am still against this.
I think for the most part it is a good idea, but as mentioned before if a soldier's death counted every time they were killed many people would steer away from soldier completely as they would have many deaths, but if their deaths were kept as one death for three lives it wouldn't really match up properly, but if the defeat idea was added then I would change my opinion
i found the idea of having multiple deaths per round very discouraging, but that new defeat concept is a step in the right direction (it wasn't there when i made my choice)
However, i still won't change my opinion, because i'm afraid that new kill system potentially may change priorities in players' heads: at very important moment they may choose to hunt down easy targets instead of top priority few to farm their precious score.
I think the score system, where player's goodness will be defined by overall impact rather than k/d (like in team fortress 2, where score is the only visible thing to everybody and personal k/d is fully devaluated and even hidden from anybody but player), is the right way to go
First post and poll updated with the adjustments.
The K/D's role as the player efficiency meter would diminish while score would be propped up more as the go-to for player success measurement. K/D would largely serve as satisfaction more than anything. Score is already the superior mechanic as it measures in assists and objectives.
Key goals for this change are to de-emphasize K/D by uncomplicating it and make it more into a general statistic.
Sometimes it's better to go for the easy target, sometimes it's not. Players who do know when to focus on a deka (etc.) first will do so anyway because it pays off in the long term.
Still voting 'Yes'.
Agreed, and sometimes the easy class is not the easy target/player. There are a lot more newer players in the game, and every time they kill me as sold they deserve a full kill and not "wtf I killed the guy with top score and got nothing!". Solds can deny kills and trade very hard at the moment, even if they lose all 3 lives by spreading their deaths across multiple enemies.
This may also make single use weapons like Primary Grenades/TDs/Rockets gain ''value'' as each time you detonate someone you at least get a full point and don't just trade your 15 point investment for 0.33/4 points.
Also in the short term add more value to assists in score, from 6 to 8-10 points to lessen the gap between K/D and top score. With an improved assist system later.
Like when I am playing with my buddy @FRANK LAMPART he will not have many kills but a ton of assists and I'll have a ton of kills but hardly any assists but the system puts me waaaaay ahead on score because Kills > Assists way too much in the scoreboard. He is helping setup my kills he deserves more credit in that scenario. A lesser difference will make playing a support role more favourable.
I think I found the way to make k/d purely statistical thing without even changing it: you should align scoreboard rating by top score!
Current alignment seems strange: Score/Rounds data seems useless visually and the only reason to look there is to find that TK guy by checking out negative score. But K/D ratio seems like a thing. Why? Because it explains alignment perfectly from visual perspective. The only way to get on the top is to gain bigger K/D ratio than your teammates.
Alignment logic should follow top score logic: gain score, gain higher place. That will devalue the impact of K/D and solve the problem from UI perspective.
And you could count every kill/death, because they will no longer manipulate player's vision of the game.
And once this will be done, you could concentrate on improvement of score system. Every new applied score rule will be noticeable because of that simple alignment rule.
Well score/rounds already determines the placement. Kills just give too many points compared to anything else, assists and objectives are comparatively worthless and which I'd like to see changed
Of the top of my head I think it is:
Kill 1/2: 6
Kill 1/3: 4
Assist 1/2: 3
Assist 1/3: 2
As mentioned only damage and knockdowns give kills at the moment:
Grip someone and they get sniped before it ticks for hp damage, no assist.
Mblock someone and they get shot, no assist.
Domino someone and a jedi kills them all, you get 1 assist for the primary knockdown and nothing for the domino.
Drain all fp and someone else snipes them, no assist.
Drain all bp and someone else sabers them, no assist.
I am sure there are more examples of this as well. And this are things that should be changed but in the short-term without changing what gives assists a:
*Multi-kill: +2/4 bonus points per additional consecutive kill in <5 seconds.
*Style-kill: +2/4 points for air-snipe, air-blob, thrown-to-death, crushed, mblock-kill, back-slash, kata, dfa, etc.
Would be much nicer and better portray whats going on, the guy getting killing blows will still be ahead on average, but they still also need a lot of assists.
*Example stuff I'd like to see later.
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