Jedi damage reduction

[NERO]

This gets talked about here and there but I wanted to make a thread solely about it because every other thread discusses like 50 different ideas and damage reduction gets drowned under walls of text. Even if there were a shitton of discussion about this I still want to bring more of it just because it's the most severe issue in the game at this moment.

I haven't touched this game for months now. I've played MBII for 9-10 years and it's my favorite shooter but every time I even consider booting the game I'm instantly discouraged.
Why?

Rhetorical bullshit aside, the issue: jedi damage reduction. It's insane. I've been in situations where somebody sec fragged a sith into the air, we riddled him with an E-11 and Clone Rifle 3 for that period hitting majority of the shots, nepper lands and acts like nothing happened and just cuts the other guy in half. Somehow they still have force to deflect all my CR3 shots for about a 5 meter distance and kill me. Sure, could've played better, could've shot better, but it's still ridiculous how they should've died at least two times by then but they keep walking. It's been maybe a month or two since this and it's still burned in my mind like some kinda traumatic war memory.

Jedi is my most played class, should be happy I can tank-a-ton. Not really. Whenever I pick up jedi these days I feel more encouraged to just run at a pile of 4-5 gunners, tank their shots and take at least 3 down with me before I die. Unless they all hit my head or knock me down I'm not dying. More certain to help my team than trying to play carefully. Unless you wanna just play support but with this experience I'd rather let 'er rip a little. Even if they knock me down it may not help at all since the magical space button makes knocking down jedi completely useless unless you've got really good aim.

Jedi don't have to execute against gunners well while gunners have to hit almost every shot and likely use a knockdown ability as well.

Damage reduction was brought back because the style passives were removed for not fitting in. I guess it was fine to remove the passives if it really didn't fit the devs design ideas but replacing them with a nigh-broken mechanic was a severe mistake. Should at least reduce the damage redux to 10 percent or replace it with a placeholder mechanic that is helpful but doesn't take too long to implement.

Might be there's been an official statement about this that would satisfy me but I can't find jack on these forums anymore and they're discouraging to check daily anyway when majority of threads are proposing modern shooter mechanics, some kinda crazy move crap for every class or people RPing as robots.

 

[Smee]

I play both gunner and saberist. Most Sith have been using lightning 1 vs Hero now because it's 4 points to stop them from scoping and being able to use P3. I think that's perfectly fine aside from how long the gunners aren't able to retaliate for that 4 point easymode button (if the "stun" duration was lowered, then the window for not being able to use force powers afterward would be lowered too btw).


I use Grip vs Jedi (Force Focus helps to break stalemates) more than gunners at this point because if you're trying to charge it vs a gunner, they're probably just going to have drained most of your FP by the time it gets locked on (in which time I could have just ran up and used Lightning 1 and then slashed them).

I'm not intending to imply that I want to change the powers completely. Just adjusting risk/effort vs reward like with P3.

.

Maybe it's different on US servers but on EU servers i very rarely see lightning and i play a lot as gunner

 

[Shalak Que]

So what the F**k? I'm supposed to hug a jedi so that their saber fucks off to the side so I can get shots in?
Instead of just the good old dynamic of reducing FP and using knockdowns. Which was fun for both sides and worked fine until reducing that FP was completely useless when your shots don't do jack.
Unless flinch has completely changed it's meaning somehow and nobody has bothered to explain how.

I also like fancy words like 'situation control' when I have no idea how flinch is even related to that.

as I've learned from kael primary fire from the e-11 and its re-skins will blast your fp into another galaxy if you aren't careful and flinch is effective about 5-10 meters away. Just because you can't defend yourself in every last situation you get in against a jedi/sith doesn't mean they are OP and need to be nerfed. Triggered: Off

 

[NERO]

flinch is effective about 5-10 meters away.

I don't even understand what flinch is anymore.

 

[Preston]

Hahahh learned hahaha ha kael hahaha

 

[Preston]

But it is true, primary fire is under rated

 

[Starushka]

While flinch is present there should be an adequate alternative for hidden damage reduction.
I believe, instead of hidden bonus we should add HP bonus like some of you mentioned here. What i suggest is to add a new class abilitty called "Physical training".
1 level (6 points) - grants user additional 25 hp (125 in total)
2 level (8 points) - grants user additional 50 hp (150 in total)
3 level (6 points) - grants user additional 50 hp (150 in total). Reduces melee damage taken by 50%.

Edit: 3 level (optional) scales player model up to 1.2 (Desann scale from JO). For better visual indication.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Oh be quiet you lot.

Bring back b16 grip.
Or at least remove the idiotic knockdown, even when standing still, from force powers.

So many vulnerabilities, so many nerfs, god damn nerf herding mongrels!

The most iconic force power/use of the Original Trilogy and it just sucks in mb - it's highly situational.
Christ, FFS, LMFAO, you even give people a visual cue they're being grip locked.

Do you Princesses need an extra training wheel on that fucking tricycle?

/end rant.

 

[Stassin]

Thing is, just increasing the HP would no longer enable the code to take into account different situations or damage types. Like, currently the damage reduction is 20% overall but except against sniper shots, saber damage and disruptor damage, it is increased to 40% when holding block (and not attacking) but except against a few other things like fall damage, poison, lava, grip...

Moreover, currently, taking damage drains FP, which is supposed to account for the jedi "using the Force" to resist damage; this would also vanish.

And overall i think this idea of "using the Force" to shield yourself makes sense in terms of star wars universe, the jedi are trained to enhance their bodies thanks to their connection to the Force.

Having more HP doesn't represent the same thing, it's just having more physical/material toughness and/or a bigger body and has nothing to do with the Force (xD).

 

[Preston]

Thing is, just increasing the HP would no longer enable the code to take into account different situations or damage types. Like, currently the damage reduction is 20% overall but except against sniper shots, saber damage and disruptor damage, it is increased to 40% when holding block (and not attacking) but except against a few other things like fall damage, poison, lava, grip...

Moreover, currently, taking damage drains FP, which is supposed to account for the jedi "using the Force" to resist damage; this would also vanish.

And overall i think this idea of "using the Force" to shield yourself makes sense in terms of star wars universe, the jedi are trained to enhance their bodies thanks to their connection to the Force.

Having more HP doesn't represent the same thing, it's just having more physical/material toughness and/or a bigger body and has nothing to do with the Force (xD).

I never knew taking damage drained fp? How long has this been in the game, or am I stupid and its always been in?

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

You mean fp. Taking hp dmg does drain fp - poor force user abusers

It's been in for the last 2 or 3 updates. Mid to late last year it was introduced. Easy to miss if you don't pay attention or don't forcewhore a lot.

 

[Preston]

You mean fp. Taking hp dmg does drain fp - poor force user abusers

It's been in for the last 2 or 3 updates. Mid to late last year it was introduced. Easy to miss if you don't pay attention or don't forcewhore a lot.

no one saw that... nobody laugh

 

[Revanic]

huh, I thought it was always there. Even way back at the RC releases. Could be my mind playing tricks on me though.

 

[Tempest]

Pretty sure FP drains from being shot has been in for a looooooong time.

 

[Crusader]

Whilst not a quick-fix and probably not easy to implement, I would prefer that DR was an active ability that could be toggled on and off. Namely I would like to see something along the lines of Force Protect. Of course, this does not mean to say the values will be a direct copy from base JKA, nor would it have to necessarily function the same. For a Jedi/Sith to execute anything with their primary weapon (lightsaber) they have to enter melee range and attempt a swing. Usually this involves them being placed in the crossfire of enemies and teammates alike where the probability of being hit by something is at its most. With the addition of flinch, this makes this more daunting than ever: it is just another layer of difficulty to trudge through to secure a kill. Damage reduction is needed, and I do not think this is a point of contention between anyone. What matters most is how it is realised in the game. I have always viewed the Jedi/Sith class as something deadly but fragile, made only invulnerable through the player's careful management of the class' resources to shield them from lightsaber attacks (BP) and blaster fire (FP). Good intuition when using the force neutralises explosive threats (force push) and ensures that no enemy can surprise them (force sense). Failing that, solid positioning and situational awareness would at least keep them safely sheltered behind their lightsaber.

Currently Jedi/Sith receive two phases of damage reduction: one passively and one on the off-chance that they are holding block. This works well I am sure in its intended scenario where a Jedi/Sith will be swinging and blocking when trying to kill a gunner, or blocking after using a force power like push or pull. It gives them the durability to enjoy the round longevity most classes have and not be anti-climatically fated to trade one-for-one with one of a soldier's three lives. However it also works when a Jedi/Sith does not pay attention to their blocking arc and get hit on the side. It works when a Jedi/Sith is ambushed directly from behind, but happens to hold block. It works when a Jedi/Sith is caught on the edge of an explosion or hit by the secondary mode of a grenade. The damage they might receive could be trivial; a pistol shot to the leg, or an E-11 shot to the foot. This steady accumulation of reduced damage throughout the round however quickly dispels the notion of the Jedi/Sith being fragile and in fact gives the illusion of them being quite 'tanky'. Note that in each of the aforementioned scenarios that the Jedi/Sith had the tools to deal with the situation and receive no damage, but compensated anyway with DR.

Decision making is the biggest measure of skill as a Jedi/Sith. Pushing a grenade one way might kill the enemy but your own teammate as well, pushing it another way might cause it to detonate but not injure anyone. Sometimes the decision is to just not push it at all. The class is going to take damage at some point. It is inevitable. But the Jedi/Sith should be at least able to choose when it receives the least amount of damage when it absolutely has to take it. This means that whilst the class is still fragile, it has the temporary capability to make itself resilient when it has to preform a risky action, but not all the time. A Jedi/Sith must now be able to anticipate when it will be receiving damage and use the force to mitigate it as much as possible.

The distinction might be subtle, so a hypothetical may help:

Consider the scenario of a Jedi being in an open area against multiple gunners that are slowly diverging away from each other so that they may try and hit the flanks of the Jedi. In the current form of damage reduction, a Jedi unwilling to re-position to keep the enemies in their blocking radius (or simply oblivious to what is going on) needs only to keep hold of block to have that damage reduction until they realise they need to escape. To a lesser extent, they still have damage reduction for not holding block and trying to run. Either way, they are allowed to get out of the situation relatively healthy with no major distinction made between a Jedi holding block because they know they need the damage reduction and one that is clueless to the advancing enemy.

If damage reduction were an active ability, the unaware Jedi would remain fragile and take substantially more damage than the Jedi that realised a flank is imminent and they will begin to start taking damage. Similarly, this applies to situations where a Jedi is caught in a sudden explosion they cannot escape or unable to push due to team-kill potential. Reflexive use of Force Protect would shield them from damage they are forced to take whereas the unaware Jedi would rightly be blown away by the explosion or forced to take full damage from a secondary grenade/blob and so on.

I cannot provide you with any rigorously drafted numbers, but some guidelines are:

• Ability given base-line;
  • Jedi/Sith builds as it stands are already starved for points, this merely ensures that the capacity to reduce damage is given as default
• %DR is greater than before, but temporary and toggled;
  • Jedi/Sith must choose when to be hardy and venture into danger, riskier behaviour is met with reward if well thought out to capitalise on greater %DR (fantasies of carving through multiple gunners) during a select window of time
• Has a FP cost and inhibits regeneration;
  • Force Protection is a decisive ability, not something to activate whilst idling about to cover-all-bases; cannot be activated with no FP as to prevent it from being a crutch to bail out of a fight; nor can it be used to tackle a gunner and hope to emerge with a full bar of health and force
• Cool down after use;
  • Wasting the ability provides an opportunity to counterattack for gunners; failing to clean up all enemies results in a low FP Jedi/Sith with no means of damage reduction
• Visual indicator when in use;
  • Gunners can reliably estimate how much damage they have done to the Jedi/Sith instead of factoring in if he was running or holding block for a split second when they got hit

The ability could be tiered, providing more bonuses at higher levels. A distinction could even be made between Jedi and Sith in that Sith have a version that provides more aggressive perks than defensive (Dark Rage without the health decay). This is a lot to ask and should not be entertained as of now, however.

 

[Revanic]

That sounds really cool actually.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Because that is totally what I want to see happen, a Jedi charging at me that pops a dota-style ability and makes him tougher, despite my blaster shots going through his forehead.

I would rather there just be more skill to deflecting, and a buff to it.

 

[Szunti]

When jedi loses fp he dies in a second. How much should it reduct damage to even consider giving up a large chunk of fp and fp regen? Will you be tankier than an SBD? The only situation when I can imagine it would be useful if you want to leave the battle and turn your back to gunners. But imo you should be punished for that.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

What's wrong with flinch exactly? I consider myself to be a decent gunner, but flinch rarely makes a difference when I face skilled sith/jedi. Sure, it helps kill reckless saberists who charge you hoping for a quick kill, but that's it.

I never found myself relying on it because of how hard it is to actually make it work vs good jedi/sith. Flinch helped me blast a lot of bad saberists, but it never really mattered when I went against ones who cleverly used their brain, movement, level geometry and force powers to their advantage. Those guys usually rekt me without even giving me a chance to flinch.

So in short, I think flinch does the right thing. It motivates you to act like a real jedi - using tricks and outsmarting your opponent, instead of running wild like a wookie.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Flinch benefits high-fire rate weapons, and bullshit classes (Like SBD, Clone, and Godcaster 3 Wook) more than it benefits the soldier trying to stop a Jedi/Sith from bluing him in the face. Even the best soldiers can't really stop me from killing them with a saber (without nade spam, since I don't pack push.)

But that is mostly because Gunners in numbers are basically huge force multipliers. Whereas bad Jedi/Sith actually negate a numbers advantage. 1 Hero/BH is bad enough, but 2 is almost impossible to win against with a saber.

 

[vasya]

What's wrong with flinch exactly? I consider myself to be a decent gunner, but flinch rarely makes a difference when I face skilled sith/jedi. Sure, it helps kill reckless saberists who charge you hoping for a quick kill, but that's it.

I never found myself relying on it because of how hard it is to actually make it work vs good jedi/sith. Flinch helped me blast a lot of bad saberists, but it never really mattered when I went against ones who cleverly used their brain, movement, level geometry and force powers to their advantage. Those guys usually rekt me without even giving me a chance to flinch.

So in short, I think flinch does the right thing. It motivates you to act like a real jedi - using tricks and outsmarting your opponent, instead of running wild like a wookie.

pushed gunner, came to him to claim my frag, caught random shot during the strike, was flinched, gunner got on his feet, killed me with 1 shot, deleted the game.