jedi and sith are op in open now

[[TG]trap]

The knockback system is terrible. Flinch was far superior and prevented a single jedi from force speeding directly into a blob of enemies and spamming with his duals guaranteeing they got at least 1 kill since all saber attacks just happen now. Ever since this change jedi and sith went from being support to carry, the vast majority of games are now jedi and sith spam as they are outclassing every other class. Flinch forced jedi and sith to be more creative with their tactics instead of running to a gun user and then attacking once close enough to kill them even if they did land a shot and caused knockback.

 

[Punished Crab]

The knockback system is terrible. Flinch was far superior and prevented a single jedi from force speeding directly into a blob of enemies and spamming with his duals guaranteeing they got at least 1 kill since all saber attacks just happen now. Ever since this change jedi and sith went from being support to carry, the vast majority of games are now jedi and sith spam as they are outclassing every other class. Flinch forced jedi and sith to be more creative with their tactics instead of running to a gun user and then attacking once close enough to kill them even if they did land a shot and caused knockback.

Yeah I see what you mean with that. Albeit I'm much newer to this community I have noticed that unless I'm an ARC trooper who can use evade and jump to gain at least a bit more distance in order to try and kill a force user, most other times when playing as a wookie, clone, hero, etc. I am pretty much dead if someone gets close to me. I do to a degree understand why they may have removed flinch cause it would mean a guaranteed death to most jedi/sith if the gun user is at all competent with their aim. It's one of those "you can make a case for both sides" type of arguments.

 

[Fluffy |>]

Flinch meant instant halfswings off every shot forcing you to have perfect aim at very close range to not die. Knockback is far better paired with the recent buffs to fp drains

 

[ThEra]

Flinch forced jedi and sith to be more creative with their tactics instead of running to a gun user and then attacking once close enough to kill them even if they did land a shot and caused knockback.

I'd argue swingblocking shots is the main offender for this lack of creativity and saberists being op situation. If you'll indulge me the grandpa lecture, back in the day when swinging your saber meant you're open and vulnerable to any and all shots (with the exception of a points variant called Q3) jedi/sith were at least somewhat balanced and needed an actual thought process behind their attempt to kill a gunner.

Nowadays you can more or less just bulldoze through anything simply by charging at your enemy and pressing your left and right mouse buttons quick enough and no amount of implemented countermeasures seem to give the gunner an upper hand. Especially if you go for the jump+use+swing maneuver with which you can easily get away with slaughtering even the most competent of gunners.

The only things I've noticed that can best a swingblock is input lag from the saberist, him/her being too slow to press 2 mouse buttons in quick succession or, in a more conjectural statement, getting stuck in a weird animation immediately after getting shot which causes the blocking part to not register and swingblocking just ends up slowing your movement down. This last part is of course just a theory based on my observations during many hours of playing as jedi and it may be just me not understanding some mechanics, however I believe this kind of situation also makes you not be able to switch saber styles until the 'stuck in animation' part is over. Maybe a dev can explain if there's something to this or just me imagining things.

Tl;dr swingblock too op and it makes saberists play lazily vs gunners.

 

[The Unguided]

Primary fire is so underrated. Sometimes it's more useful in close range than secondary, highly recommend to use it with appropriate timing and movement. In a 1v1 situation it's easy to tire out even the most skilled saberists considering the territorial advantage.

 

[[TG]trap]

primary fire is more accurate and only useful at long ranges otherwise the fire rate is to slow to push back any saberist far enough before he insta kills you by pressing a single button if you land the shots

 

[JamJarBinks]

Jedi main here. The input delay between initiating the swing and the block button registering is what kills me 45% of the time versus gunners. Sort of proving the point that the main method of gunners winning (knockback + fp drain) isn't powerful enough. An experimental week or so of upped drains or stronger knock-back might be, at the very least, entertaining.

 

[Duckshark]

Jedi main here. The input delay between initiating the swing and the block button registering is what kills me 45% of the time versus gunners. Sort of proving the point that the main method of gunners winning (knockback + fp drain) isn't powerful enough. An experimental week or so of upped drains or stronger knock-back might be, at the very least, entertaining.

This literally proves that no one has any idea what they're talking about lmao, FP drains got a massive buff, sizably more than current levels, a couple patches ago, and Jedi mains (deservedly) got mad. Now that we finally struck a decent balance barring one or 2 guns, people are like "buff knockback". There's literally no consensus within the community unless you look towards competitive open play, where FP drains are generally fine as is barring maybe Deka, EE3, T21 primary, and SBD.

For reference, knockback is 100% better than flinch, because of this:

Shot when swingblocking w/ flinch: No knockback, swing cancelled, can halfswing.
Shot when not swingblocking w/ flinch: No knockback, takes hp damage.
Shot when swingblocking w/ knockback: Jedi pushed backward, swing cancelled, can halfswing.
Shot when not swingblocking w/ knockback: Large push backwards, takes hp damage.

The only difference is that with knockback you don't have to manually space yourself and risk a push up close, since shots automatically generate space, and that slow ROF guns can't just be flinch -> halfswinged on. With flinch, a Jedi can just get shot while swingblocking then halfswing into an instant kill, but with knockback, it creates space so you can back up and actually get away without having to constantly run.

As is, hitting bodyshots and moving backwards (and crouching under jumpswings) is a fairly consistent way for gunners to survive, barring certain utility (blobs/poison/nades) that you can use to drain more HP or FP on the side. This GIF is a great example of that even with a slow-firing gun, and this was before any FP drain buffs. (Credit to @A$APRocky for the sick flicks).

 

[Hessu]

Dont listen to this idiot

 

[JamJarBinks]

Dont listen to this idiot

My name is Jam, sir.

 

[ZyDus]

git gud

 

[The Unguided]

primary fire is more accurate and only useful at long ranges otherwise the fire rate is to slow to push back any saberist far enough before he insta kills you by pressing a single button if you land the shots

In case of DLT and A280 primary fire drains more FP, if you aim shots well, the Jedi might not be pushed back by being knocked back because he's either retreating with no FP / panicking with no FP / is freaking dead.

I know secondary is usually more useful especially with the aforementioned weapons, but unlike primary, the secondary fire have to be timed even better there (while also being kinda inaccurate), if you mess it up it could cost your life.
Even with T-21, a well aimed primary shot in close range can be deadly.

 

[Tempest]

Kinda weird when people say saberists are better now than with flinch when FP drains got buffed and the knockback system triggers in the exact same circumstances that flinch did while also allowing more consistency in gunners being able to deal with them (a couple more systems in place that were missing prior).

 

[JamJarBinks]

Kinda weird when people say saberists are better now than with flinch when FP drains got buffed and the knockback system triggers in the exact same circumstances that flinch did while also allowing more consistency in gunners being able to deal with them (a couple more systems in place that were missing prior).

Players like to win. It doesn't matter how insane the FP drains are. It doesn't matter if you add flinch and knockback and added drains while removing damage reduction. Some Jedi player will top the leaderboard, and some player will make another thread like this.

 

[Duckshark]

Players like to win. It doesn't matter how insane the FP drains are. It doesn't matter if you add flinch and knockback and added drains while removing damage reduction. Some Jedi player will top the leaderboard, and some player will make another thread like this.

I'd say if Vortex and Lynt go 50/50 in gunner v saber and the wins are determined on whether or not the gunner hits their shots/the jedi hits a push, the balance is fine at a high level. Just because Apex can top frag on tR as Jedi and people complain about it doesn't mean it's an equal skill matchup, and knockback seems to work just fine a lot of the time in my experience (just hit shots and you don't die). I'd personally say the main issues are less about knockback values and FP drain values and more about everything else (force powers, gunner utility like blobs/poison).

Dont listen to this idiot

I'm retarded I'm retarded ez ez ez

 

[Biospill]

ok but when is knockback being removed on gunner vs gunner?

 

[Duckshark]

ok but when is knockback being removed on gunner vs gunner?

When knockback gets removed on gunner v Jedi

 

[cannonfodder]

When knockback gets removed on gunner v Jedi

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[Kodar]

When knockback gets removed on gunner v Jedi

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[GeneralKenobi]

When knockback gets removed on gunner v Jedi

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