Gunner Jedi Balance in a bad state.

[PizzaTheSlut]

Hello, i have been playing this game since about b17 and enjoyed it thoroughly however the current patch is such a large departure from the previous in terms of the gunner vs jedi dynamic that I have to point out some issues. Now i understand in spirit what the devs were trying to do with this rebalance and removing stance perks. So they gave all jedi more damage reduction, made force drain extremely low for stationary sith/jedi, and in turn gave an occasional stagger that lets you get one or two, massively reduced in damage shots on a jedi or sith occasionally. Because it seemed dramatic at first the prior buffs to jedi/sith seemed justified but on further play and players adapting to the new patch, it has revealed to be a massive over buff. Facing one or even two gunners without perfect aim hitting every shot with a high RoF weapon, a jedi/sith must simply hold walk and block, and the laser shots are ineffectual on the saberist. Now of course there are concs, blobs, and sec nades to knock down saberists however unless someone is using a ridiculously powerful weapon like Cr3 or t21 the damage reduction leads to the brief shots to be only a minor punishment especially when playing with a team. Given the ease of avoiding these knockdown enablers or a gunner shooting the class aiming for the knock down punishment should be harsher.

However the most ridiculous change by far is the swing block at any time to apply q3 to your saber swing against a gunner. Now for absolutely no point investment a sith or jedi can ignore normal gunner restraints and guarantee a safe attack. Given the low damage from lasers thanks to damage reduction a jedi or sith can stagger multiple times, and still manage to make a safe swing block kill despite missing multiple swings. In the past if a gunner was skilled and timed their shots appropriately between the gaps, and the saberist did not invest into q3, or did not disable the gunner, or use acrobatics to trip the gunner up, a gunner could rightfully high damage punish or kill a reckless saberist. Now as long as this swing block mechanic is understood a gunner no longer has a chance to punish reckless saberists besides some measly damage on a stagger. This would be fine if force drain was in a similar state to what it was previously where jedi or sith tanking for long periods of time would leave them forced to use acrobatics and running, but that is no longer the case.

What all this has led to is a balance state in which only a handful of gunner classes, played well have even a chance in hell against a competent saberist, those classes being Clone, Wookie, and SBD. Thanks to the ability to not get pushed they can ignore the stifiling pressure of threat of push + enemy gunners which leads to an inability to even begin to fight the saberist as the q3 swingblock and low force drain negates almost any chance of counterplay. However even these classes struggle, after all one must simply crouch and the knock down that the SBD/Wook must risk life and limb to get into range for is negated. Clone must also hit a high accuracy blob compared to the massive cone of push threatening to happen at any time. One solution would simply to make the classes that counter saberist, actually counter saberist so they must actually rely on team mates to deal with them.

Another solution would be to keep the current high power and defense of saberists and nerfing their utility powers like push, lightning, and grip. Many people complain about grip on this patch, but the problem is not grip's strength but the fact the negligible force drain makes reasonable counterplay impossible on this patch. Adding a large damage bonus to any jedi or sith hit by lasers while using grip, lightning, or in the push cooldown animation would be a sufficient fix as well to punishing reckless jedi and sith. Simply removing the q3 swingblock and adding back into the point system would aslo be acceptable. As now anyone using the very powerful utility powers also has access to q3 safety, which is unprecedented.

As it stands gunners must play extremely well, and the saberist must either not understand the mechanics of the game or swing mindlessly in a straight line to even be threatened. This combined with the games long standing balance where a gunner + push threat opresses any one gunner's play into the ground lead to almost no room to outplay jedi or sith if one is not playing the power classes, Clone, Wook and SBD.

I advocate either a return to a more reasonable balance state that punishes sith/jedi not using utility, acrobatics, or team mates or a buff of the counter classes so there is actually a rock paper scissors element to gunners and saberists. A return to old cortosis and improved wookie charge would be a start.

Thanks and I hope discussion will be constructive.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

What new patch?

 

[Noob]

i liked most of what you said, but devs really hate the idea of rock paper scissors even though that brings in better gameplay strategies at least in my opinion. i think q3 should be back to where it was builds ago like you said, but i dont think cort 2 or wook buffs would help. swingblock is the biggest problem i think

 

[Mooch]

1. remove flinch ( makes jedi/sith easy to kill and basically impossible to even get a swing on a good gunner )
2. increase fp drain when holding block ( no more hold block forever and survive a full clip of ammo, this also helps make slow rate of fire weapons viable in gunner vs saberist again )
3. nerf lightning + saber combo ( more like an ez win button at this point )

 

[Puppytine]

Oh come on, gunners have a flinch now, but still crying about saberists being OP?
Pathetic.

but devs really hate the idea of rock paper scissors

Rock-paper-scissors sucks, because it provokes constant class switching instead of actual playing.
And those people who don't want to change class are sentenced to die over and over again if enemy team has a class that beats theirs.

 

[Noob]

im glad mooch mentioned flinch i totally forgot about it. why cant we have it like it was before flinch, sb, and all the weird added on bs. @Puppytine theres really no point in flinch if you can just swingblock, right?

 

[PizzaTheSlut]

Oh come on, gunners have a flinch now, but still crying about saberists being OP?
Pathetic.

Rock-paper-scissors sucks, because it provokes constant class switching instead of actual playing.
And those people who don't want to change class are sentenced to die over and over again if enemy team has a class that beats theirs.

You must not have played the game lately if you think Flinch is even punishing. Jedi can flail in your face, flinch take 20 to 30 damage then push or saber you with no consequence. Also with the instaswing jedi can just face hug while flinching and the second it finishes get the instaswing on the gunner with the windback. Like honestly show me footage of a jedi who plays defensively and swingblocks ever being inconvenienced by flinching.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Rock-paper-scissors sucks, because it provokes constant class switching instead of actual playing.
And those people who don't want to change class are sentenced to die over and over again if enemy team has a class that beats theirs.

And a state of the game where every class is extremely effective against every class is boring, unvaried gameplay that doesn't rely on teamwork. Rock-Paper-Scissors has a massive role in every game that requires teamwork and class structuring. Now should something have zero effectiveness? Of course not, but one class is always going to be better at dealing with certain situations than another. Part of any game of MB2, if you want to be effective, is predicting what your opponent will do. That includes class changes.

And overall I agree. Jedi vs Gunner is in a horrible state and has been for the last few major builds. However, 1.4 was a massive improvement over the disastrous 1.2 and 1.3 even with flinch being stupid.

 

[k4far]

Wook buffs would help.

​

Nerf lightning.

No. Okay... maybe a little.

I would like to be able to tell when a Clone is about to use a blob, avoiding Lighting is pretty much the same if not easier.

Part of any game of MB2, if you want to be effective, is predicting what your opponent will do.

True.

Damn Battlefront agents.​

 

[Stassin]

I don't control the newest builds (1.4.4) but the general idea for recent builds (post-1.3 retardation...) has given much better overall variety in the gameplay in the sense that engagements are much less only about a single swing either killing the gunner or getting the jedi killed because being shot drains over half hp and leaves you in a very bad position with little FP.

Instead, jedi are given very low FP drain when blocking and pretty high when not blocking, which means the gunner has much more space than before because a jedi running or strafing towards you will get his FP shredded with but a few shots (a loophole currently being to abuse jumping + blocking to get close with low FP drains... unless that was changed in 1.4.4). At the same time if the jedi does manage to get close, then with a high ROF weapon or well-timed shots your survivability is greatly improved because he can't just run + swing (resulting in a kill in exchange for HP) as he could in older versions. In return jedi get lower damage when hit and the ability to swingblock to try and initiate attacks more safely (swingblocks slow you down making you an easier target, and failing swingblocks makes you waste time which is very important for the gunner as the jedi's FP is steadily decreasing during a close-range engagement).

So instead of a single run + forward swing resulting in either the gunner's death or the jedi's death (only really happened if jedi was low HP or gunner scored a HS which is very difficult and random on a strafing target at point blank - what i mean by this is that jedi was retardedly easy to play and way too rewarding for just run + forward + attack...), you get a gameplay which favors multiple attempts and less risk for both sides, with the possibility for both sides to aim for small HP drains over time rather than an immediate kill (thanks to flinch which even a footshot can trigger, and improved deflect). Now you might say that even in this setting the current balance is still shifted in the jedi's favour due to too low HP drains and FP drains, the fact that lightsaber still instakills unlike guns, and the fact that force powers often give you kills compared to gunner abilities that are seldom able to secure a full kill on a jedi; and i don't disagree, overall the strength of jedi class is very high, frankly the highest in the game. However, jedi class requires alot more skill to play than before, and i'm not sure it would even be a good idea for it not to be the strongest class, given the lore/expectations of new players.

A possible role of jedi in a team (being a tank able to stand on the front lines for a decent amount of time thanks to low FP drain when blocking) was also drastically improved.

I could go in much more detail... but Tempest is the one in charge of gameplay now so i don't know if my vision will even remain in the game in the future. I'm just talking about 1.4 versions (and somewhat 1.4.4, i don't think much has changed in the way of open mode jedi yet).

 

[vasya]

why bother about sbd who can rekt half of enemy team without even magnetic plating.
or e11 which is triggering flinch instantly so you can mindlessly shoot everywhere and still win.
or GOOD GUNNERS who know how to avoid swingblock by jumping in a moment of swing (which is death if saberist's ping above 60, cuz swing make you WALK)

man, almost forgot useless force powers in reb side, like MT which can be interrupted by any sith + have loud sound + last like 4 seconds + consume about 40 fp + cost hell amount of points.
speed is better, still you can be shot because no block.
in a same time siths have lightning which is EZ mode almost everytime and any not good\not clone player will die instantly.
not sure about grip, i don't use it.

about fp during block.
yeah yeah. it's good when saberist standing still. STANDING.
in this game saberist must get close to kill, cuz he is a melee class.
and what we have with fp drain while running? hmmmmmm... like 5 shots from mando rifle, same with arc i think, almost same with bowcaster etc etc etc.
and i was talking about only one gunner.
you know when you playing vs a good gunner you can rely only on force (if it's not sbd. sbd with good aim - death). and when you playing versus 2 good gunners you will die, because besides of OP WALKING BLOCKING saberists is dying in 2 shots without force. So you should jump around like monkey until they get bored.

devs added flich which is extrem bs in my opinion and ppl still complain saberists is op. u fkin srs?
lets take away force and saber, left them 10 hp. then all gun-player will be happy.
or won't?

 

[SeV]

My biggest gripe with the recent open mode changes has to be the general design philosophy behind it.

Low FP drains coupled with Slow FP regen and the FP regen debuff, change up the dynamic of the game in a way I'm not sure is good. For example, I find it utterly ridiculous that you have such a hard time regenerating FP while dodging shots and ducking behind boxes and so on, and the fact that it takes so long to regen. Granted, this system has its upsides aswell, but in general I feel that its demerits outshine its merits. My overall feeling and instinct is that I want higher FP damage and higher FP regen.

Slow FP regen and the inability to recover FP with skillful play unless entirely out of combat makes it feel stifling to play jedi/sith in open, it feels too restricted. 1.4.4 has the same problem with swing drains of BP. It's a mechanic that basically fucks you over for playing reasonably. It's a restrictive, stifling mechanic. Unpleasant. The low FP regen feels a bit like that to me. In other words, a bad solution which makes the feeling of playing the class worse.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I prefer a more volatile system with higher FP drains and higher fp regen. A system where dodging blaster bolts matter, where you have to use mostly continuous fire to kill a jedi due to the regen, and where FP doesn't take 3 million years to regen. However, I grant that this may not make a return given the difficulties with balancing such a thing properly.

I have many misgivings about the state of current open mode jedi/sith vs gunner gameplay, but tbh there are also many good things about it. Swingblocking to block blaster bolts is an example of an excellent mechanic that rewards skill. I also think flinch + nudging on gunners is nice because it requires skills to execute.

 

[Stassin]

I prefer a more volatile system with higher FP drains and higher fp regen. A system where dodging blaster bolts matter, where you have to use mostly continuous fire to kill a jedi due to the regen, and where FP doesn't take 3 million years to regen.

The current systems has what you describe, but also alternatives. When you're running, dodging blaster bolts does matter tremendously, since eating even just one drains alot and reduces your FP regen; and if you can reliably dodge then you benefit from that alot as it allows you to close in quickly on a gunner (and even if you get shot once, the FP regen debuff is quite short). But you also have the safer alternative of blocking it for less risks and less pressure on the gunner. So i don't really see your point, the mechanic you are talking about is already in the game but with even more variety. If anything, the current system could be improved to make the base FP debuff even shorter (0.5s instead of 1s) and make it ramp up even more progressively as you are repeatedly shot, with higher overall drains to compensate.

 

[Noob]

did you even read my post dumbass?

but i dont think cort 2 or wook buffs would help. swingblock is the biggest problem i think

 

[jango40]

How about the game doesn't get fundamental changes in gameplay every single fucking major patch.

I agree though - the jedi/gunner balance is definitely off now.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

Nerf lightning and blobs for starters. And maybe look into insta-swings after blocking a shot, because that shit triggers me.

 

[PizzaTheSlut]

Instead, jedi are given very low FP drain when blocking and pretty high when not blocking, which means the gunner has much more space than before because a jedi running or strafing towards you will get his FP shredded with but a few shots (a loophole currently being to abuse jumping + blocking to get close with low FP drains... unless that was changed in 1.4.4). At the same time if the jedi does manage to get close, then with a high ROF weapon or well-timed shots your survivability is greatly improved because he can't just run + swing (resulting in a kill in exchange for HP) as he could in older versions. In return jedi get lower damage when hit and the ability to swingblock to try and initiate attacks more safely (swingblocks slow you down making you an easier target, and failing swingblocks makes you waste time which is very important for the gunner as the jedi's FP is steadily decreasing during a close-range engagement).

So instead of a single run + forward swing resulting in either the gunner's death or the jedi's death (only really happened if jedi was low HP or gunner scored a HS which is very difficult and random on a strafing target at point blank - what i mean by this is that jedi was retardedly easy to play and way too rewarding for just run + forward + attack...), you get a gameplay which favors multiple attempts and less risk for both sides, with the possibility for both sides to aim for small HP drains over time rather than an immediate kill (thanks to flinch which even a footshot can trigger, and improved deflect). Now you might say that even in this setting the current balance is still shifted in the jedi's favour due to too low HP drains and FP drains, the fact that lightsaber still instakills unlike guns, and the fact that force powers often give you kills compared to gunner abilities that are seldom able to secure a full kill on a jedi; and i don't disagree, overall the strength of jedi class is very high, frankly the highest in the game. However, jedi class requires alot more skill to play than before, and i'm not sure it would even be a good idea for it not to be the strongest class, given the lore/expectations of new players.
.

The problem here is that it actually hasn't changed to what you describe. The gunner when facing a Jedi continuously flinching has to keep all fire on the jedi who is moving at full speed, the gunner must remain walking to not get pushed by push 3 which is default for 90% of saberist players. What this leads to is the jedi having multiple chances to flail in the face, not dodge the gunner's fire, and flinch taking minimal damage. The reduced FP regen is basically irrelevant because the guns drain so little force to begin with a jedi can comfortably fight engagements taking full fire for dozens of seconds, and be fine fighting with around 40 fp. Even on previous patches it was more bearable, as without the Q3 swingblock safety a gunner would consistently punish and suppress reckless jedi which is no longer possible. Basically on this patch with the exploit you talk about the optimal play is to use the jump block exploit have next to no force loss and get a free swingblock, push, or simply wait for their clip to run out because unless its cr3/t21/sbd laser no gunner can actually drain a blocking saberist 100 to zero. The system encourages completely passive play ignoring most acrobatics besides jump exploiting. Fundamentally a jedi has several chances to kill any given gunner over multiple mistakes, while the gunner must space and walk and play appropriately at all times or face instant death. Sabers should be high risk high reward, not a low risk defense shield with guaranteed kills at any time with a swing-block.

Making jedi sit in one spot and block just feels like it made the gameplay worse compared to the old days where the best saberists would use tons of acrobatics and tricks to out play skilled gunners. Jedi is in fact easier to play then ever, one should remember back when blasters did push back punishing all but the most skilled saberists. I honestly prefer the last patch because you could actually force drain jedi who did not use cover, or move, or rely on team mates which is no longer possible.

 

[prejudicedroid]

Dear monkeys start using a simplier mean of communication my wiring can hardly process this.

*squawk* *squawk*

#malfunction detected
- heat levels HIGH
- requesting checkup on S.I unit
.... 0000000010000000.....
- awaiting feedback from the Core...
- initiating: safety protocols...
###ERROR###

 

[Chorb]

So let me ask you a question. What is a jedi ment to do in 1.4+ when a gunner holds walk and refuses to do anything else. There is absolutely not punish for doing so, no more dancing whit swing vs run, cant use jumpkicks on standing people cause instant flinch even vs that.

The problem is, jedi/sith cannot currently play the role you envisioned, because you forced it in whitout thinking about years and years of balance. How can jedi/sith play the tank role, when blobs / darts exist and are spammable and deflect is weak. If you want flinch to exist, the entire game needs to be rebalanced around the fact that its a thing.
When you will think about it, you will notice flinch simply limits design space too much, and thats why its a bad mechanic in its current state. As i have been saying since its been implemented, flinch shoudl only exist for slow fire guns such as p3, disruptors and proj. SBDs, dekas and clones become a balance nightmare otherwise, and dont get me started on knockdowned arcs whit flinch.

If the role of jedi/sith is a tank, turn us into reinheart. Make us immune to knockback, give us a big bad blue rectangle whit 2000 FP and 500 hp. Oh balance dosent work like this, we cant just become Overwatch, hmmm. But this is what the game is heading towards whit current ideology of gunner vs saberist.

Id love it if we simply reverted the to 1.3 version of saber vs gun, but hey cant get it all. Ill just stick to pure dueling aslong as saberists dont have a role in open.

 

[Stassin]

Haha. As usual (except maybe in 1.3 where everyone was somewhat forced to admit jedi was "at least balanced"), 45% of people think jedi is OP, 45% think it's too weak, 10% think it's roughly balanced. Really, that gives little motivation to listen to anything but the 10%. That isn't right of course, since everyone does give valid points about some features being too strong or weak; but the overall deduction that it is OP or UP is simplistic and almost all the time very biased.

Anyways, a decent gunner will definitely wreck a running jedi's FP, a decent jedi will definitely find a way to swingblock or attack from an unexpected angle or use a force power at the right time, and secure kills. Git gud, or stop believing that your opponents are trash and that you deserve to win.

There sure are many issues with the current state of jedi vs gun that need improvement or some changes, let's all hope they will be addressed for the better.